Daughters called me a Slut and C***

[Villam]

Nc for this.

I'm absolutely devastated and don't know what to do. Two DDs aged 13 and 15. Currently on holidays abroad , 7 weeks in total and they have mostly been nightmares. They haven't lifted a finger, constantly harassing their younger brother. I've cooked, cleaned,shopped brought them to places they want to visit and it's never enough.

Came to a head last night when I asked my DD13 to pick her wet towel up of the floor. I then asked DD15 to pick her soaking wet clothes up from the bathroom floor. I was met with a torrent of abuse. DH heard what was going on and took my side and was telling them of. DD15 started screaming at him so he took her phone and in a moment of rage threw it and broke it.

I then got the backlash from our DDs where I was called awful names. They hate me, I'm a crap mother, nobody likes me etc. I was in shock at the pure venom that spewed from them.

I'm a SAHM with no help whatsoever from family. I can get quite grumpy because I'm tired a lot. I do everything for them. I'm the first to be there if they have any problems. I do all the cooking, cleaning, washing as when I ask for help from them it's a big argument. I don't know what to do.

So as not to drip feed DH and I went through a bad patch eight years ago and we both saw other people during this time. DH family were not happy about this so they basically don't talk to me now. My two DDs are aware of what went on during this time. They hold me fully responsible hence calling me a slut.

Myself and DH worked through everything, counseling etc and are in a good place now. I've arranged counselling numerous times for DD15 at her request but when the time comes she backs put.

Please help me. I don't know how to fix things. How have I fucked up my DDs so much?

Oh sweet Jesus. I went food shopping today and got some chips and nuggets at the Deli counter. Not what I wanted, but brought it home. Kids were on devices prior and ripped up the bag, fighting over food, and eating it and crying. I was obviously spoiling them by not getting them to come with me. 5 seconds of this and I banned all devices, took them and hid them, to see if we can learn to behave.

Obviously indulging them is the huge mistake here.

Forget about the blame game. They just called you random swear words. Stop being harsh on yourself. It’s nothing historic, more like histrionic.

You don’t want brats. Parent them the way they need to be patented. No more spoiling. Just change yr tune and stop mopping the floors.

My kids had to go 5 hrs before any glimmer of tech. It’s really not that hard.

@Villam
Eight years post your separation your children still hear you and your husband arguing about the separation. The separation is not behind the 2 of you. How can it not be a part of your children's experience? When you and your husband argue about who did what and when 8 years ago, your children probably try to figure with whom they are going to choose to live. This sounds like a situation in which your children might be hoping that the 2 of you will actually divorce.

"
The 2 of you might actually gain your children's respect if they could get to experience the 2 of you living apart as properly functioning adults. At the moment life for them must be much like living in a warring camp. Your children have probably acquired their " offensive vocabularies," within your household.

If you and your husband " fix the environment in which your children live, that might reduce the need to "fix the children."

You and your husband may each be capable of being or becoming good parents, but together you seem to be a toxic combination.

You all deserve better.

Sorry, haven't read past the first page - but when did they begin speaking to you like this? While it would have been better to address it previously, I wouldn't hesitate in dealing with it now.

I'd make it clear all the repercussions that will take place going forward if they even dare raise their voice at you again, never mind anything else that comes out of their mouths - and mean it. Seriously. Stop everything. Take their phones if you paid for them, or disconnect their phone bills. Change the password to your home internet. Don't buy them anything special or go out of your way to give them rides or do anything for them. And make it all clear to them all that you do and will stop doing and providing for them if they're going to behave that way.

You can't just let this slide although I appreciate that things may have been going badly for a while so it may be at a stage that's harder to deal with. My kids very rarely showed some minor signs of disrespect when they were younger and it was dealt with so swift and fast with all that I'd stop doing for them if they thought they were such a big shot and so independent, that they were pretty quick to apologize and not test that boundary again.

Oh god can people please, PLEASE at least read all of the OP's posts before commenting? This poor woman has suffered a lifetime of abuse. Her so-called 'D'H has been verbally and physically abusive to her their whole marriage, has allowed his family to misogynistically blame and verbally abuse her, clearly has a violent temper given that he took, threw and broke one of his daughter's most treasured possessions. When they separated for a while, because HE was an appalling husband and OP couldn't take any more, he bugged the house to spy on her. She had a perfectly acceptable dalliance with another man, given that she was separated from her husband. She did not bring this man to her house, the children knew nothing of it and she ended it quickly. Her husband then came back to the marital home even though she didn't want him back, told his family that she had been unfaithful and allowed them to keep up that narrative including sharing it with their children. And once back in the family home, continued to verbally and physically abuse her while not lifting a finger around the house. And the icing on the cake, he then started seeing someone else WHILE living in the marital home with the OP and their children!!!

Everything that is 'wrong' with the kids is because of this man. Everything.

Children do not operate in a vacuum. They are a product of their environment. And FFS this is NOT a case of a perfect childhood and stroppy teens who should be 'fixed' by more abuse - taking their possessions, treating them in a way that nobody would dare to treat an adult, including suggestions to actually HIT them.

I honestly despair of MN sometimes.

And to the OP @Villam I am so very sorry for everything that you have been through and are going through. You are important. You have worth. Even if you can't see it yourself at the moment. I wish I could give you helpful advice, but while this is clearly LTB territory I can see that financially you feel utterly trapped and have nowhere to turn, especially with children who don't see the truth of the situation and might side with their abusive father. So I will just send you strength hope that you can somehow find a way through this, and please please ignore the posters who have literally just read your OP and decided that you have terrible children who need to suffer in order to become decent children!

@BlibBlabBlob agree with your post so much.
There ought to be a MN rule - Read the OP’s posts at the very least, or you are NOT allowed to comment.

Oh god can people please, PLEASE at least read all of the OP's posts before commenting?

Why would they? They see teenagers acting up and it hits a reflex. No thought as to context, where it came from, what the kids are actually trying to communicate, the adults' role in all this. No, teenagers behave badly and the problem must be entirely with them, nothing to do with the environment, and they need really spiteful treatment up to and including assault and abuse to somehow bully it out of them.

Not even worth a "see all" to see if OP subsequently updated with the kind of information that won't surprise anyone who didn't automatically assume that the kids are just malfunctioning and have no reason to be this way.

I honestly despair of MN sometimes.

It does seem to have more violent, slap-happy parents on it than it used to. It used to be, on the whole, fairly intelligent about hitting children (ie, don't do it because all the evidence is that it's damaging and it's just a way for parents to vent anger and feel better for a minute while feeding the long term problem even more). Where did all these fisty, slap-happy....people come from?

Again, it's amazing that adults can get away with shitty behaviour for years, but it only becomes a problem when the kids are affected...and then the kids are the issue.

@LizzieSiddal thank you and @DrSbaitso I couldn't agree more! People think that literally abusing and manipulating and spitefully controlling their children is the way to raise decent adults. On what planet does that make any sense? Toddler lashed out and hit their parent during a meltdown? Whack 'em right back, that'll learn 'em.

Yes, it'll teach them that it's not OK to hit someone bigger and stronger than you, but absolutely fine to hit someone smaller and weaker than you.

Then we wonder why so many children exhibit bullying behaviour towards their younger siblings and towards smaller, weaker children at school.

And think that the way to teach the bullies to behave better is for their parents to hit them harder than they were hitting the smaller kids.

I don't just despair of MN, I think I despair of the entire human race.

Obviously it's not a parent's job to be a complete doormat, that doesn't do children any good. But a parent should be setting healthy, loving, sensible boundaries and responding with empathy while keeping their own temper and thus modelling self-regulation. So few people are willing to look inwards and consider what they themselves might be contributing to a negative situation with their loved ones. There's just this reflex action to punish and shame and show the kids who is boss.

Oh god can people please, PLEASE at least read all of the OP's posts before commenting?
No.
Think of it as a conversation. A person responds to what they've heard. There might be a world of background they don't know, but they don't insist on hearing everything before they hazard a response.

op does your DH call you names?
is this where they are getting it from

be brave op.
what is the general atmosphere in the house, between you and your dh?

Well they should. When the information is all out there and easy to see, why would you not want to be as informed as possible before offering your esteemed opinion?

Honestly, even if you haven't read the full thread and are responding to the OPs first post re her children's behaviour, it's easy to then read all her posts and see the whys and the wherefores. The OP has suffered terribly at the hands of her abusive husband and his family, she deserves support and understanding here, as do her girls who have been caught up in this toxic situation.

@Villam your first mistake was getting back with your husband.

None of what you're describing sounds good.

You were separated when you dated the other person. Whether it was morally right or wrong is up for a debate - but that debate was for you and DH to have. Not your in-laws or your kids.

You're still not coping well and that situation is still being used to "put you your place"

not only that but your daughters were brought up to have no respect for you and to hate you

Then your husband is a whole other can of worms - he moved out then threw a fit that you dated someone else...then did the same. Told his family about your affair, but didnt mention his...and he is clearly the source of violent behaviour in your kids. who in their right mind throws and breaks a phone of a teenager, no matter how annoyed?

your daughters are a product of failed parenting of both of you. They didn't just think to call you names because of a towel. I'm willing to bet they have heard you being referred in those exact terms by their father and his family, and so you probably just became a vessel for their frustration, resentment and anger on what sounds like an absolutely hellish family dynamic.

A conversation is two-way.

So is a forum

So other posts should be read.

Thats not a good comparison—the idiot mn who comment without reading updates are not engaging in conversation but are more like an unruly and smug audience member shouting out rude questions and random opinions to a speaker who has not finished speaking.

If you read the OP's post you will see that she says over the years the kids have witnessed the OP and husband arguing over their 8 year old separation.

It is unlikely that these children have ever lived in a emotionally healthy environment. At this point there is probably enough shared responsibility for the creation of this environment to go around.

Rather than casting blame, both these adults should do .what it takes to change this environment. The 13 and 15 year old children have likely spent all of their life to date in an acrimonious and toxic environment.

The OP talked about the impact and effect that her childhood had on her. Is it so surprising that the childhood that these children are experiencing is having a negative effect on them?

If the OP and her husband together could , as loving parents, choose to create an environment that is positive for their children, maybe the remains of the childhood could be salvaged. This likely means choosing to separate in a formal and final way.

@StopStartStop

No. Think of it as a conversation. A person responds to what they've heard. There might be a world of background they don't know, but they don't insist on hearing everything before they hazard a response.

That's more like heckling tbh.

@StopStartStop
It is never possible to respond knowing the full story, because the narrative is only told from the likely biased perspective of the OP. Subsequent postings by an OP usually only add details to further support the " poor me"or ' put upon position " of the OP. What is missing is the description or perspective of the other players in the drama.

In many instances in a heated argument, if the husband is calling the wife ugly names, she is probably not responding by calling him a child of God. Probably much name calling is happening on both sides.

People who are both obviously angry over something that happened 8 years ago as a rule are not your gentle and forgiving types. Mud is probably slung by both the parties , and sadly, some of that mud is sticking to their children.

What is sad in this situation is that the parents are appalled by the children's behavior without recognizing thr direct link to their own behavior. It is quite likely that both the OP and her husband each experience themselves as a victim in this marriage and that each secretly feels morally superior to the other when in fact the real victims are the children trapped in this circus of horror.

Not having the decency to read all of the Op's posts are freely and easily available to see just smacks of 'I think my opinion is important enough to share (even though I don't know what I'm talking about)'. No. It really isn't.

The equivalent isn't a conversation, it's standing there while one party is speaking about something serious, and having your hands over your ears going 'LALALALALAA' for most of of what they say, and then deciding to bestow your wisdom upon them after you caught a sentence when you stopped to breathe.

If you want both sides of some drama, go and watch Judge Rinder. One side of the story is inevitable on MN, so posts need to be taken with a bit of faith unless they are entirely unbelievable (which this clearly isn't). There's little point assuming that Op has actually driven over his golf clubs and keyed his car and is just as bad as he is but just not told us. If that's how we approached things no one would ever get any advice on here.

Do we not believe women that are victims of abuse now until we've heard from their abusers? Can a person not be a victim of abuse because they might not be a saint?

Relevant context added in subsequent posts is not just 'poor me'. In reality, abused women often don't realise they are being abused because the abuse has been so normalised and persistent that they think it's either normal, not that bad, or deserved, so they don't see it as particularly relevant. That is why, so often, the full story comes out later. Because other posters/friends/family who are removed from the situation can see the red flags the Op can't, and can ask the relevant questions or help reframe it so that it is clear.

From everything Op has said, he's clearly abusive. There is no 'well what about her behaviour?' I'm not exactly sure what threshold Op's behaviour would have to reach to make how he is acting acceptable?

It doesn't take a genius to see that their daughters are mimicking the behaviour he is modelling, with Op as the metaphorical punching bag. They are treating her in the same way he is treating her, and even his reaction to their poor behaviour is teaching them that an abusive outburst is correct when you're angry. Ignoring that and framing it as 'we're both to blame' because they've also heard Op shout in an argument isn't going to help their DDs at all, but it is absolutely going to skew their idea of what is appropriate behaviour in an adult relationship.

The environment clearly isn't healthy for anyone, but none of it is about 'casting blame' so much as identifying where the toxicity is coming from so that it can be rectified. Spoiler alert, I'd put money on it being the guy that bugged his house, has violent outbursts, has been emotionally and physically abusive against his wife, allows his family to call his wife a cheat and a slut while conveniently ignoring his own relationships outside of the marriage, involves the children in their arguments by talking about her 'boyfriend', and chose to out of parenthood and leave his very ill wife to parent their shared children despite her illness because they happened to be separated, meaning her support and treatment was cut short.

@BreastedBoobilyToTheStairs
I am not trying to support or justify the actions or position of the husband .The OP's first posting had to do with the complaint about the vile language and behavior of her teenage daughters.

My point, however poorly stated, was that both the OP and her husband share equally in creating the toxic and probably traumatic experience that has characterized the home environment in which these young women have been reared.

As the young women's behavior was the focal point of the original posting, I thought that I would have my Down with the Sisterhood moment in support of 2 young females who have been reared in a toxic environment for 23-15 years and who are no doubt regurgitating the verbiage and behaviors that they have seen and heard in their home and demonstrated by their own parents.

Where are the "sisters" when if comes to assessing why these young women may be simply and sadly the product of the environment in which they are being reared?

Why doesn't dad also say 'I cheated too, so am I also a slut? Women shouldn't use such derogatory terms towards eachother. Its sad and I expected better from you'.

He also needs to cut off his family if they are still cold shouldering you.

Otherwise you have a dear husband problem.
And his lack of respect and defence of you is what's causing the girls to push the boundaries.

So he needs to sort this.

@Pinkbonbon
Why 8 years.later are these 2_adults still having this discussion and forcing their children to witness ongoing arguments about something that should have long since been laid to rest? If they could not come to terms why did they not put the marriage and their children out if the unending misery by getting a divorce???

@Mari9999 Absolutely agree if he's still bring it up and not forgiving it then they need to call it a day or of course the kids are only going to emulate the arguments they see.

Keep it coming, people. You won't win.