I’ll confess here, I’m so f****ng envies of women who have male admires…

[UglyNameChange]

I know we're supposed to be independent-need-no-man, who needs male validations, but god damn do I want even one man to like me.

I was reading another thread about op who kissed her boyfriends friend (yeah, not the best situation) and she went to say how he told her he has had feelings for her for long time bla bla bla. I can’t imagine how that must feel like to hear.

I want someone to like me, want to be with me.
I’ve never been in a relationship, never been on a date (don’t judge,please).

No matter how I read the advices people give to single women, I can’t even help myself to be okey with being single and it just makes me feel like a double loser.

How I wish I was a woman men liked/wanted to be with/could love.

Just to be clear, I don’t wish anything bad to lucky women (well, all the rest of the women in the world it feels) I just wish I was as lucky as them too.

Thanks for anyone who read my rant.

No, I don't believe her actually. You want me to think that she's so hideously ugly that nobody wants to date her. Rubbish. I've never seen anyone in my life that is so utterly hideous NOBODY would want them. The issue is something else. How someone looks is entirely dependent on who is looking and beautiful for one is unattractive for another.
This is about mindset and attitude towards life, it's about blatant depression and low self esteem caused by a parent who repeatedly sent a shitty message to a child who grew up to feel like she was a piece of crap. It's spoken about these days commonly and is a well known fact.

You want to buy into someone's terrible self-assessment of themselves that they're ugly and undateable? Sorry but no. Just no.

Hmm maybe but maybe because it isn’t how other people see them? Did you ever read Anne of Green Gables where Mrs Lynd says Anne’s hair isn’t that red after she begins to like her more? No clue why red hair was seen as awful but that is for another matter. I think we see people as more beautiful when we like them but this doesn’t change their experiences with others sadly. I think it might come across as very dismissive to imply that how a person sees themselves treated in the world is all on their head. I know I’ve felt that way as a black person, someone saying well you aren’t that dark isn’t really helpful to me - others will always see me as a black woman.

How about buying into statistics? There are many studies on attractiveness and how it impacts your life.

I generally hope people might be empathetic and understanding but I don’t presume to be able to make a person be so.

I think when we see someone who is down on their luck in some way there is a tendency to try and blame them. It is a defence mechanism, we want to think it could never be us. We don’t want to imagine it could be we as a society who are the problem. I’m not saying there are not things OP might do to try and help her situation but I’m acknowledging life is unfair especially if she has tried things already suggested in the thread.

@OutsideLookingOut I do believe she js ugly. I have not seen her, but I take her word for it. However, unless she can produce an entry into book of records proving that she genuinely is the most hideous person on earth that nobody would ever consider dating, then I don't buy for a second that her appearance is the sole reason why she was never lucky at dating.

I also think it's very naive to think that attractive people just need to go out and there will be a line of potential love interests - and that's what OP described. Sitting with your friends on the night out waiting for someone to approach is unlikely to get anyone into a reltionship.

Statistically speaking somebody has to be at the bottom end of average (described as 'ugly') whether this applies to @UglyNameChange no one on this thread knows.
I am fairly confident that if OP did online dating and went for the lower end of average looking men she would be in with a very good chance of finding someone.
Have you done that OP? Or are you only attracted to 10/10 looking men?

I guess if they can have that as the reason, it means they don't have to confront the stuff they can control. It also puts the fault on everyone else for being shallow, or at least no responsibility on them.

I think you should temper your language here . I don't think OP is trying to imply anyone else is shallow or anyone else is at fault.

And as as lived experiences go, OP doesn't need to be "the ugliest person" anywhere to feel like her problem is insurmountable.

She feels like she is starting way behind the start line. And stats go, she probably is in certain areas, by not having good looks on her side.

In some ways she has a harder mountain to climb than others.

She needs confidence, energy and endurance to do that. I don't think anyone should be telling her off for not having that.
Or feeling the opposite.

It's understandable.

I am fairly confident that if OP did online dating and went for the lower end of average looking men she would be in with a very good chance of finding someone.
Have you done that OP? Or are you only attracted to 10/10 looking men?

I wondered about this too. You sometimes get men on here complaining about lack of interest from women on OLD and that is suggested to them.

@UglyNameChange ?

Sometimes OP it’s not just about looks/weight it can also be confidence. I’m overweight/plain looking but I am very confident and outgoing. If you’re quiet and shy it is too easy to be looked over. I’m not saying you have to be loud and the centre of attention. You do think getting surgery will change you?

Same. It's the attitude that is their barrier to a relationship.

I used to think the reason they hated being told they weren't ugly was because they felt you were lying, trying to be nice and patronising them.

It's OP who is making me think there might be another reason, and the more it goes on, the more I'm thinking it.

It's oversimplified to say it's OP's "attitude", and I know she didn't like my use of the word "energy", which I admit is a bit hippy dippy and perhaps not the best term for what I'm talking about...but everyone seems to know what I meant.

She clearly has a complex and traumatic history and that's not her fault at all. But I don't believe this trauma, and the resulting self loathing, has nothing at all to do with her difficulty in this area and it really is just as simple as: she's ugly.

She clearly has a complex and traumatic history and that's not her fault at all. But I don't believe this trauma, and the resulting self loathing, has nothing at all to do with her difficulty in this area and it really is just as simple as: she's ugly.

Probably not in all reality. I agree.

But that's where SHE is. And I think we should be mindful of what could actually help.

Firstly, please don't consider going under the knife. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and there is someone out there for everyone. If I were you, I would spend that money on counselling as you clearly have low self esteem which is probably part of the problem. Secondly, don't go out with the first guy that shows you attention. It has to be right - you have to be able to hold conversation, laugh, find common interests and be friends with that person. I didn't meet my husband until my late 30's through online dating. Be careful of that too as there are a lot of wrong and bad people on these sites. Focus on you for now and the rest will follow, I assure you, but all in good time. You don't seem to be in the right place to be embarking on a relationship right now. Get yourself out there by socialising with friends, going to the gym and perhaps join a couple of clubs or do activities you've always wanted to do. You'll meet new people, including guys, and you never know what could happen. Be nice to yourself. No one is perfect and we all have imperfections.

So weird how these threads always go the same way. There's been a few recently. People think men will fuck anything with a pulse so it's not possible for a woman to get to 38 and have had no male attention her entire life, yet OP hasn't and neither have I and neither have a few women on mumsnet it seems. Why would we lie about that? Why do you think we're deliberately misleading you?

someone mentioned being outgoing vs. shy, and if there was one thing I would put my money on as key to being popular it's exactly that.

It's nor fair either, but at least something people have some control over or can work on.

its not that nobody believes you that you didnt have much luck dating, its that nobody believes its down to appearance

I have some female colleagues who unfortunately are really not good looking and I think men don't see them as women at all. So yes I do believe that some women get no male attention at all because of their appearances unfortunately

I don't think you're lying. I think you're telling the truth as you see it and yes, some people are very far away from conventional beauty standards so maybe you're one of them. (I've seen a few today, mostly with partners and kids.)

But what we are being asked to believe is that these women would have exactly the same outcome if they had had a secure, supportive, loving upbringing and/or good and healthy self esteem. They could have a radically different headspace and outlook and they would still be in the exact same position because their immense ugliness overrides everything and is the sole reason they get no attention that they are aware of.

I can believe there are ugly people out there, I see them and used to be pretty (haha) close to it myself. But I don't believe that.

So you assume that we're ignoring any other issues, like shyness and lack of self esteem, and focusing solely on appearance. Yet OP has said she's sociable and that isn't the issue. We're telling you what we've experienced our whole lives - that we're treated differently from other women because of how we look - and yet you have the audacity to tell us our lived experience is incorrect. I've been outgoing and I've been shy, I've been polished and presentable and I've been scruffy. I've joined groups, gone to pubs, gone to events related to hobbies, language classes, worked in at least 10 different companies, went to college and uni when I was younger, and still not a whiff of interest from men. And you think I'm lying.

No, I don't think you're lying. You are completely misreading what I've said.

So you assume that we're ignoring any other issues, like shyness and lack of self esteem, and focusing solely on appearance.

Well, when someone comes on here and tells us that their ugliness is the only reason they get no attention, yes. That's exactly what it means.

But I'm reminded now of the flip side of this...the beauties on here who believe the reason people respond badly to them is jealousy or other negative emotion prompted by their beauty (only some of the beauties say this, to be clear, and I don't think it was a majority). But as time and conversations went on with them, these posters displayed a superior, condescending and at times really pretty rude attitude...and still insisted, on the internet, that the reason we weren't responding well to them was jealousy. One of them told me I couldn't have any other reason to be in the conversation.

These things are complicated and I've no doubt that having below average looks is a disadvantage. I've been there and I'm plain myself. But no, I simply don't believe that your supposed hideousness trumps everything and is the only reason for this issue and it was inevitable from the moment you were born.

Fucking arrogance astounds me

Hi OP, just wanted to tell you that I hear you and believe you. People with more 'normal' looks than me just don't understand how painful it is to be an unattractive woman. I have been treated badly by boys and men my whole life. Bullied at school and work for the way I look. Men I work with call me 'mate' and don't flirt with me in any way, like they do with other women. It is very sad to be unloved because of the way you look. People don't really want to acknowledge that, so they don't believe us. They also don't want to believe that their own partners may only 'love' them for shallow reasons. So they say things on here like "oh I bet you're gorgeous really!" Or "you just lack confidence". No to both of those. I am ugly and unloved and bloody depressed about it. We miss out on a lot of the nice things in life. You have my sympathy OP 💐

You're talking about "love" but "love" isn't about whether you look at someone and want to fk them, it's a pyschology.

What you're saying is that nobody looks at you and wants to go a few rounds in the bedroom. That's not love. Neither is physical admiration love.

OP neither likes herself or loves herself and yet here we are with people bemoaning it alongside her and basically feeding this belief.

Yes there are plain looking people who aren't beauties, i'm one of them!! But how is the "woe is me" attitude exactly helping anyone here?

There are no victims here, unless that's a choice you make.

How is it arrogant?

if you feel ugly and alienated from others, and have no male attention except being bullied, you cant somehow shine through and be this amazing super confident woman who attracts men on confidence alone. Who is (additionally) super happy and positive about being single not through choice

It's a cycle because it wears away at your confidence

And your appearance obviously can cause self confidence and mental health issues if it deviates very far from societal beauty standards

I agree, but that still points to a more complex situation than "it's all entirely down to being ugly".