Found DH holding hands with another woman on holiday

[Bobbylives]

On a family holding with kids (aged 20 & 16) i was poorly with vomiting and sickness. Dh got friendly with another couple who turned out to not be a couple, just work colleagues. When i started to feel better my gut felt off about this other woman in the couple. Night before we flew home dd got ill so i took her back to her room. Dh stayed out with ds (20). At 2am i woke up and he still wasn't back. Texted ds but ds was in bed. My gut felt off so i got dressed and went out looking for him. He was sat in a bar with a group. I stayed and watched for a while. When others in the group left, dh was there with just this other woman. She got up and pecked him on the mouth. I carried on watching from outside. They sat there talking and he was holding her hand. I stayed to see what else might happen but then others in the group came back so i thought that nothing else was likely now they had company. I went in, told dh that dd was really unwell and he needed to come back.

He is very remorseful, says he felt sorry for her as she was telling him bad things that had happened to her. Knows he crossed a line, is remorseful but also minimising it as he doesn't feel he's cheated. I know it's not much in the greater scheme of things, but it's made me not trust him. Like how was it so easy for him to do that in a couple of days whilst i was ill with some random whilst on a family holiday? What are the chances this is first indiscretion and i just so happened to uncover it? We've been together for 22 years. I would never in a million years think he'd do something like this. I feel like i don't even know who he is and not sure if i can reconcile it in my head. Doesn't seem like something to end a marriage over, but equally, will i ever feel 100% like i can trust him again?

I really think she was looking for something to make herself feel better. She’s just found her husband with a woman of 25 and he’d left her for the ow. He was obviously complicit and enjoyed the flattery, I think she enjoyed thinking she’d got one over on me. Probably boosted her ego a bit.

It's very clear she was in a "bad" place and acting very I appropriately herself. She's far from blameless

But behaving like that; any attached man should have been giving her a wide berth.

Your h did the opposite.

You don't need told this, I know; I'm just highlighting that he didn't need to get into that situation, and shouldn't have been involved in that way; in case he gas lights you to lose sight of what well adjusted, decent men's behaviour is.

Nothing useful to say really OP other than you & your children sound absolutely lovely. I’m sorry you are facing this.

OP, have you had counselling on your own, or only as a couple ?

I think there is a time and place for couples counselling. But in this instance I am not sure it is best for you if you are going together. In fact, I don't think that couples therapy is ever a great idea when there is a degree of control in the relationship.

And sorry to read about your ddog. 💐

Here’s the truth. Most of the time women hit on your h not because they are jealous of you, it has nothing to do with you.

it’s simply because your h presents himself as an easy target, he sends out a vibe: hit on me please!

Your h wants to be hit on by women, if not this one there will be another, completely pointless to blame this one woman and to fantasize about how your were envied. Maybe it makes you feel better about your h therefore feel better about your situation. Also if she’s able to peck your h on the lips within a few days of meeting him on his family holiday, when his wife and daughter were both sick, then I don’t think there’s much to be jealous of from her side, as it shows how bad your marriage is. Very likely that he let himself get hit on by more women when you are not around.

I don't think it's unfeasible that this woman wanted to give herself an ego boost, after being cheated on with and dumped for a lot younger woman, by attracting an attached man, particularly an attached man with a good looking wife.

Lots of cheated on people become quite bitter, driven for validation, and take th ev"if you can't beat them, join them" approach.

That is not to say that op's husband wasn't also giving out vibes, acting very approachable, being open to advances etc .. because clearly he was.

I think, from young, you sense which attached men are open to flirtation and more, simply from their vibe and behaviour; I had this from day one working as a student.

They are up for it and act inappropriately.

Other attached are clearly not up for it, not open in that way.

Op's husband clearly fell into the former category on holiday and one had to wonder about the rest of the time.

Also he works 7 days a week (?!)

I can totally understand why the OP feels upset, she comes across as pretty level headed. I wouldn’t say she’s been cheated on though, just let down.

If I were at some kind of support group for cheated on partners and I was last to share my story after hearing about husbands sleeping with nannies, affairs with co workers, sex workers on business trips etc. I’d feel a bit silly to say I caught him holding hands. More a point on the threshold for use of the term, rather than a wish to delegitimise the hurt OP is feeling.

Sounds like he’s been a bit of a bell the rest of the holiday, hopefully he’ll stop taking you for granted after this.

If I were at some kind of support group for cheated on partners and I was last to share my story after hearing about husbands sleeping with nannies, affairs with co workers, sex workers on business trips etc. I’d feel a bit silly to say I caught him holding hands. More a point on the threshold for use of the term, rather than a wish to delegitimise the hurt OP is feeling.

Yes, let's compare a man's behaviour to the worst of the worst infidelity and say his behaviour - which I've called highly inappropriate but I don't disagree with others calling it cheating - doesn't meet a threshold for use of the term cheating.

The threshold for cheating is not in the context of the worst behaviour; it is in the context of normal, appropriate, decent, respectful, well adjusted behaviour.

Against that context - it does meet the threshold for cheating.

Just to add none of us have any idea re what contact or not he has with the woman at other times.

*Sounds like he’s been a bit of a bell the rest of the holiday, hopefully he’ll stop taking you for granted after this.

They left the next day, they've been back for a couple of weeks or more, he's since joked about it using the word "Oops!!". Have you even read the ops posts?

hopefully he’ll stop taking you for granted after this.

Why would he when he's gotten away with his behaviour on holiday with a bit of (joint) counselling, a few tears & snotters .... and a few short weeks later is referring to it as a joke.

If you read ops other posts, he is arrogant, high handed, selfish, cavalier and inconsiderate. Why would he change and stop.taking op for granted. He's acting like he always has (though even worse by getting inappropriately close to a woman on holiday while out partying on his own cause his wife was either sick or keeping their sick daughter company,) and has gotten away with it as he always has. He's happily gas lighting away, as it sounds like he always has "I can do nothing right for you, boo boo".

I know the first instinct is to protect the children but really honesty is the best course. Obviously as gently and calmly as possible and detaching his role of husband from his role as father. Sadly I have a number of friends who kept quiet only for it all to come out later and the children felt lied to and very angry. In one case the father lied through his teeth, denied everything and her DD didn't know who to believe because nothing was said at the time and she didn't remember her DM being upset! The irony ..

You're his wife, mother of his kids, yet you were supplanted by some random woman on holiday with a sob story.

You have seen for yourself that you are not his number one. Your husband thinks so little of you that he can cheat with impunity practically under your nose.

How much counselling are you intending to pay for in order to give you the (warped) mindset that this was okay?

Okay so I’ve gone back and read the OPs other posts. As a lot of her posts were in response to yours I’ve read a lot of your posts. ‘Gas lighting’ seems to come up more often than an episode of MAFSAU, but appears to be used incorrectly. For example disagreeing on the severity of something (without casting doubt on what the OP herself witnessed) is not gas lighting. The reason I point this out is that gas lighting is a form of abuse and you are repeatedly pushing a narrative that this man is an abusive partner when there is no evidence (or claim) presented by the OP that this is the case.

Last post was meant to be in reply to TheoTheopolis23 btw

It will happen again, op. Worse next time. Brace yourself.

I agree with this. Gaslighting means that you start to doubt yourself. It's not the same as lying.
If the OP had been gaslighted (gaslit?) her H would have said it didn't happen, or she didn't see properly, their hands were near but not touching etc.

I took photos from outside to make sure he couldn’t gaslight me and pretend it never happened. This is why I watched and waited.

Just read through my own post again and have found the true point of what I was trying to say...

If you go to counselling to rationalise and accept this behaviour as being acceptable, it is going to skew the frame of reference that you, your parents, your family, people who have your back, your lived experiences have spent decades building up.

You will spend the next few decades of your life in a hinterland of doubt, and confusion about what behaviour, language and (lack) of respect you deserve. You will become a doormat and people will walk all over you. Your daughter will either: become her father and walk over you, or worse become a doormat so you can watch helplessly.

Your entire existence and that of your kids is at stake here.

That must have felt horrible.

There is.

You must be reading a different thread.

He's an abuser, and (ironically) a gas lighter.

Op is so used to his gas lighting that she's taken even photos of his behaviour with the woman on holiday to try to stop herself from being gas lit. He's still doing it though.

All the "I can never do anything right" narrative, while he acts selfishly, autocratically & cavalierly .. and op reacts as anyone world; is more gas lighting. Well before this holiday incident.

I could do a full summary but frankly - if you can read even just the ops posts in this thread and declare the opinion you've declared above, I despair of you and would be utterly wasting my time.

Yes, you could do a full summary and tell CakeyBakeyHeart, but I just don’t think they’d understand!

So he has cheated on you. And yes kissing and holding hands with another woman is cheating. It makes no difference if he has decided it isn't cheating. You actually witnessed it and to you, it is absolutely cheating. He doesn't get to decide what you find acceptable!

And then he could put your mind at some sort of ease going forward by showing you his phone - which he won't do. Just the section he deems ok for you to see. And his reason? Fucking invasion of privacy! Is this guy for real?
He is deciding his apparant 'invasion of privacy' is more important than setting his wifes mind at rest after he was caught with another woman!

You've tried to get past it, you've done councelling, which has resulted in him seemingly still unable to grasp how bloody upsetting and serious this is. And he still won't let you even look at his phone.

I would be demanding his phone right here and now. Give him no time to go and erase anything from it. Just tell him, you need to look at it right now. Tell him the only chance you have of even remotely being able to come to terms with it all is to see his phone. If he still refuses you know where you stand. You are not as important to him as what is on that device. Its got nothing to do with invasion of bloody privacy. he fucked up, big time, he should be doing ANYTHING you reasonably ask to fix it. And asking to see his phone is absolutely reasonable. At the end of the day how you feel about HIS cheating is waaaaaaay more important than how he feels about his bloody privacy!