Found DH holding hands with another woman on holiday

[Bobbylives]

On a family holding with kids (aged 20 & 16) i was poorly with vomiting and sickness. Dh got friendly with another couple who turned out to not be a couple, just work colleagues. When i started to feel better my gut felt off about this other woman in the couple. Night before we flew home dd got ill so i took her back to her room. Dh stayed out with ds (20). At 2am i woke up and he still wasn't back. Texted ds but ds was in bed. My gut felt off so i got dressed and went out looking for him. He was sat in a bar with a group. I stayed and watched for a while. When others in the group left, dh was there with just this other woman. She got up and pecked him on the mouth. I carried on watching from outside. They sat there talking and he was holding her hand. I stayed to see what else might happen but then others in the group came back so i thought that nothing else was likely now they had company. I went in, told dh that dd was really unwell and he needed to come back.

He is very remorseful, says he felt sorry for her as she was telling him bad things that had happened to her. Knows he crossed a line, is remorseful but also minimising it as he doesn't feel he's cheated. I know it's not much in the greater scheme of things, but it's made me not trust him. Like how was it so easy for him to do that in a couple of days whilst i was ill with some random whilst on a family holiday? What are the chances this is first indiscretion and i just so happened to uncover it? We've been together for 22 years. I would never in a million years think he'd do something like this. I feel like i don't even know who he is and not sure if i can reconcile it in my head. Doesn't seem like something to end a marriage over, but equally, will i ever feel 100% like i can trust him again?

You don't need to ramp it up any more for the poor OP

Says it was nothing, but what it appeared and he doesn’t even remember her name.

Bobby, it was very much something, and your H is clearly lying about not recalling OW’s name.

He had an agenda. He’d spent days sniffing around OW, and there would’ve been moments of flirting and KISA/Damsel, at the least. By the final night, they were exchanging intimate touches via the kiss and hand holding, like a couple would. It’s ludicrous for him to now claim he doesn’t remember her name. Regarding the earlier hotel party, DS wasn’t always present if he found them together at the nightclub at 3:00 a.m…

I just can’t get over his marked selfishness, contempt, and lack of care — both in general and on the trip. His wants/needs are front and center. Your children are observing and absorbing a very unhealthy relationship model.

He made an absolute mockery of his marriage and family during the holiday. Weeks later, he’s still operating in ‘wayward mode,’ a term used in the surviving infidelity site to refer to the actions of the faithless, entitled partner. His minimizing and his jokey, abhorrent ‘oops’ show his complete lack of remorse. He has clearly been paying mere lip service in counseling and manipulating the sessions. He doesn’t feel true empathy for your pain or responsibility for helping you heal. Infidelity recovery requires complete transparency and open access with devices. He lost the right to privacy when he prioritized OW, joined his lips and hands with hers, and treated his family like dirt on his shoe.

This would be considered cheating in my marriage, so he would be out, permanently. I think it’s very unwise that you haven’t set an effective consequence for his betrayal. He really needs to feel the loss of you while you weigh your options. His downplaying, cavalier attitude, and blocking of transparency indicate that he’s a bad bet for a successful reconciliation.

and your H is clearly lying about not recalling OW’s name

Maybe he doesn't - given she was just a supply of attention, validation, ego flattery, gratification etc (and whatever else) for a bit.

After all, he treats his wife and family like shit, do why would he be any more caring or unselfish or sincere with a woman he's met on hol for a few days.

It's what she offered, rather than who she is.

In saying that, it's sounds like a typical cheater's minimising/dismissing the ow type line. Cheating men tend to do that - be derogatory & dismissive towards the ow and distance themselves, as part of persuading their partner that she is nothing, his involvement with her is nothing, it doesn't matter etc.

(I always think of Monica Lewinsky, with whom BC had clearly been heavily flirting etc leading to oral sex ..... Distancing himself and implying censure of her by calling her "that woman" (with whom of course he "did not have sex").

Classic cheater distancing & dismissing.

She's allowed to relay her (painful) experience. You shouldn't be trying to shut down genuine posters itt.

He really needs to feel the loss of you while you weigh your options

I 100% agree with this.

Thank you everyone that has posted. Your points have given me much food for thought. It’s been really useful to reflect and hear others opinions. I’m going to chew things over and see what is the best thing for me to do. Thanks again.

You don't deserve this treatment op, good luck

Just to add, I always found Lundy Bancroft's analogy of an abusive relationship/marriage (and vice versa) being like a tyranny/dictatorship versus a democracy.

You have says yourself he thinks he's in charge and can command everyone else, including you. He thinks he's the boss are you are subordinates.

Your not in a democracy. Ultimately he thinks he can do what he likes, now including inappropriate behaviour with another woman; and you have no real say, there will no consequences, you'll take it.
He can't even maintain the propaganda/lip service re acting inappropriately/verging on cheating on you for a few weeks (it's now "Oops lol").

You have to consider if you want to continue living in this non democracy.

*You're

(Also he'll pretend to change when it's in his interest, but people with these values and this character don't change).

So you think he wouldn't fight to try and prove he is trustworthy and this was a one-off? His rational and respecting of your decision means he would watch as the marriage ended? That says something about how committed you think he is to the relationship OP.

@Bobbylives I know you've already said he 100% didn't already know her but I'd still be wondering if he actually did. It seems a short time from meeting another couple who weren't a couple on holiday to her pecking him on the lips and them holding hands.

I’m really sure. He didn’t even know where or what hotel I’d booked, I do all the booking/organising. Their paths would never cross.

he’s 100%to blame but I really think she was looking for something to make herself feel better. She’s just found her husband with a woman of 25 and he’d left her for the ow. He was obviously complicit and enjoyed the flattery, I think she enjoyed thinking she’d got one over on me. Probably boosted her ego a bit. I know that sounds arrogant and I sound judgy, but she was very…trashy. I know I’ll get shot down for that comment, but you could see she had an agenda. Was wasn’t unattractive, just very obvious iykwim? I didn’t think much of it at first because I thought the other man was her husband. Plus I never thought my husband would do that to me..

I wouldn't personally be OK with this. I don't want him to subjugate how you feel with a very dismissive oops. It's not like stepping into a puddle.

I don’t know if he genuinely thinks he hasn’t done much wrong, or that’s the narrative he’s going with so I feel like I’m making something out of nothing. He knows how I feel about what he did. He accepts he crossed boundaries and has hurt me, but doesn’t accept what he did as cheating. The therapist didn’t really help tbh, just reaffirmed what happens next, that it didn’t happen in a vacuum, which then let him off the hook I feel.

@Bobbylives if he’s holding someone’s hand whilst on holiday with you, she’s kissing him on the lips and he’s not shutting it down and he’s disappearing til 3am with her then yes that’s cheating. And so disrespectful to you, I really don’t think I could get over the fact he could act like that whilst on holiday with me. If such opportunity presented itself again on a night out when you are NOT there, do you really think he’s going to say no? It’s obviously your decision about what you do from here, only you know what’s best for you but it does sound like he knows how to play you. And it’s working as you are questioning yourself. He knows full well he’s done wrong, but is gaslighting you. He also clearly has stuff on his phone which he doesn’t want you to see. Most likely deleted by now. I always think with these situations that yes someone may have one little blip and it’s worth trying to forgive if they are remorseful, own their behaviour and be open with phones etc when needed to build back up that trust. However just in the short time of your holiday there’s was more than one blip there. Then there’s his behaviour after it. That’s the difference.

Could you perhaps make plans to spend a weekend with a friend? His reaction would be quite revealing ...

I’m considering going away for a few days. My problem is that we have a very elderly and large dog who has just been diagnosed with a very aggressive cancer and so only has a weeks. He is too big and immobile to be relocated for someone else (like my parents) to look after. Dh works 7 days a week, v long hrs so I can’t really go anywhere right now. When we went on holiday my dad came and stayed at our house but I can’t ask him to do that now, not when doggy could take a turn at any time.

I have been in a relationship exactly like this. I was with first "D"H for 20 years. Over that time, there had been multiple incidents that were dubious, but could be explained away. Then one day, his best friend told me everything, about how he had been chasing multiple women for years. It was horrifying.

Once my eyes had been opened, it became more obvious when we were out together. Leaving his hand on women's knees for far too long, disappearing in night clubs with colleagues, letting women sit on his lap. Then it progressed to him staying out all night at a female colleagues flat, when the arrangement had been to stay with a male colleague. This was despite several warnings from me, about me leaving him if he didn't stop.

I can 100% imagine the scenario where he would do what your DH did. And the minimising was also the same. It drives you mad. I hung on in there for 4 years, hoping he would stop, but he just never did, so I finally left him. He was completely amazed that I would leave. Even after all the warnings. That's how arrogant he was.

I am now married to someone else, and this scenario seems so far fetched you may as well be talking about aliens. I think unless someone has been married to one of these men, it's so hard to comprehend.

I know you won't leave him immediately - I certainly didn't - but be on guard. I would try your absolute hardest to get access to that phone. My H got almighty pissed one night and passed out. I got in to his phone, and there was evidence of an affair that he had been having - with my very best friend. So that was nice. They both denied it, but I had all of the evidence.

Let me say also, if you do break up, there is life after all of this. I actually enjoyed being free and dating for a while. It was liberating and exciting, after being stuck with him for 20 years.

that it didn’t happen in a vacuum

Oh fucking therapists and their endless mutual blame & responsibility.... Sometimes people are just selfish cheaters... Lots of people are just selfish cheaters. Why pretend people like that don't exist, and finite even when there's nothing wrong in their relationship, even when their partner dies nothing "wrong".

Like others have said - i think you didn't see the half of it. You don't sit there holding hands for a long period or casually kissing on the mouth unless something has happened before. I'd be pretty certain something had happened earlier that night or a previous night. Of course he's going to lie about this and dismiss your concerns. The fact he was able to do this on a family holiday says a lot about his character. You've seen who he is now. Can you ever look at him and see him in the same way again? If I saw DH doing this he just wouldn't be the person I thought he was.
Ignoring this disturbing incident, how is he generally? Be honest. Is he a good and kind husband? How healthy do you feel your marriage is?

Wholeheartedly agree with this. I can, hand on heart say, that I had never EVER had any indiscretion in our 20 years together. We still had regular sex. We had no issues at all. And he cheated anyway. Blindsided doesn't even cover it. It took me YEARS to recover from the shock.

I’d wholeheartedly agree with these posters.

Of course, there are incidences where one partner cheats and there’s ( dare I say it) a justifiable reason, like the partner is inattentive, cold, abusive.

but that is not every case. Lots of abusive men cheat on their partners, and there’s nothing the partners can do that will change that.

There’s a big difference between the psychology of serial cheaters and people who move onto another relationship before ending the previous one.

The counsellor sucks. Your dh has poor boundaries or morals. The marriage didn’t cheat, he did.

Course you can go away -he will have to take time out of work. Consequence of his actions.

If you want to save your marriage and not have a repeat performance you need to address this and at the minute he is Rug sweeping and minimising. Google The 180. I think if a week away, not prioritising him and his work/life is out of character then that is a good idea.