My relationship with 7 year old daughter is breaking down and I don’t know what to do anymore. Please offer some support if you can.

[Myfirstborn]

Please be kind this is killing me.

I share a daughter, 7, with my ex, she was 3 when I left due to abuse. He took it to court but was found guilty and after a few years no access and a bit of supervised access has been given every other weekend. I and he have new relationships. I’ve been with mine a few years and in the beginning his and her relationship was lovely.

Everything is slowly going downhill. Especially since contact has started. Daughter was always a little difficult. I don’t blame her. For the first 3 years when her parents were together her dad abused her mum and he manipulated dd. Her dad would not parent with me and said it’s his job to be the good cop and me the bad. He would do no naughty step, but buy, feed her what she wanted, let her do what she wanted. If that meant she had a whole six pack of crisps then so be it. Narcissistic behaviour really. He was manipulating her, he needed her love. When the judge denied him contact I must admit I felt guilty and perhaps was too gentle on her in those early years. I’ve made a rod for my own back people tell me. But these behaviours were visible before the contact stopped when she was 3.

This behaviour has just got worse and worse. She disrespects me on a daily basis. She has told me to die. She lies, cheats, steals in order to get what she wants, at all costs really. She doesn’t care if things get taken away or she can’t have it later as long as she gets it at that point. She is awful to my partner now, says she hates him ( she used to say she loved him and gave him cuddles). Their relationship is breaking down. He also sees how she treats me and he finds it upsetting.

If she wants something she will just take it despite me telling her she needs to ask. When I say anything to her I just get I will tell my dad on you and he will come and shout at you. When she gets told off or called out she will react with anger and will then blame her outburst on me, or whoever calls her out. She is doing it at school also. If someone takes something from her because she refuses to share she will bite them or push them. She will blame her reaction on them. She if asked will not feel sorry or understand that hurting another isn’t kind.

I ordered her some age appropriate books last week to read to her. One was called Kindness is my super power. She saw it on the table and said I know why you bought me this then proceeded to throw it in the bin saying I don’t want to be kind.

I feel awful saying it and I try so desperately to word it in this way but I hate her behaviour. I don’t like taking her around family for dinners etc as she will make her cousins cry when she constantly cheats on games. She steals others sweets etc. She says things eg for Mother’s Day yesterday we went to the in-laws for dinner and she looked up at the table and went “urgh are we still here”. She was then told no more cake so she stole 3
in the end that she got caught out.

I don’t know what to do. I’m guessing that our differing parent techniques has done this. Her father puts her on a pedestal and manipulates this for his advantage. She has always loved it, who wouldn’t rather do and get what they want. I try and enforce boundaries but it’s not working. I try and teach her consequences but she doesn’t get it at all. She didn’t even want to spend Mother’s Day with me, she wanted to go to her dads so she can get bought toys and he doesn’t make me do anything. When I told her that she’d be with mummy yesterday she got so angry at me. I must admit I got a bit teary, that’s my little girl.

I feel I’m loosing her.

This can be a difficult age for children even with straightforward family histories.

Don't blame yourself for 'being gentle'. Loving and respecting a child is never the wrong thing to do. The trusting relationship she has with you will see her through in the end.

You both need some serious support here. Her father is either incompetent or being intentionally damaging, so he's not going to be much help through this. Get a referral through school or your GP (try both). You need professional guidance and she needs child therapy.

In the meantime, don't take her hurtful and mean behaviour personally. Tell her it's unacceptable at the time. Don't get into bribes and sanctions - they don't work and end up creating more manipulation and bargaining.

She's a child. In a storm of emotions.

@Redebs i will call the gp today. I’ve repeatedly asked the school for help but get nothing. The councillor has left and all they have done is give her a book to write her emotions in.

Im so worried she is going to be like her father. He is abusive, he’s done it in different ways in all his relationships. I feel so guilty but it’s really breaking down our relationship. She doesn’t seem to have any empathy or understanding of consequences or boundaries, anything I try and set out she will not follow, some of them I’ve tried to enforce for years now. Eg you don’t play with plugs, if you need a plug put in you ask. Not once will she ask. She will even try to plug one in whilst looking and smiling at us.

Sounds like she is desperately unhappy. Have you thought about therapy? Both for her, and family therapy for the two of you?

I really don't know what the school can do, she needs a qualified therapist and you should seek legal advice for the ex issues

@alyceflowers I have tried the school so will call the gp today. I don’t now but we are all becoming desperately unhappy in the house. It’s like a constant vicious circle. I ask her what’s wrong and she says she wants to do what she wants. I tell her it doesn’t work like that. I say mummy will be kinder so she can be kinder in return but one thing from me like Please can you pick up your toys and it’s no you do it or please can you help mummy with this is met with its not mine do it yourself. She is so small to be talking this way.

@WandaWonder we were at court for years with his issues and in the end they deemed him safe. She just prefers his house because there are no rules for those 2 days which means when she comes back here she hates it.

I agree see if you can get support through GP.

In the meantime, have you ever spoken to her about the whole story, why she lives with you sometimes and sees her dad at weekends, all the court battles etc? You could try making a book where you write in neutral terms like 'you were born, we lived together, when you were x age we split up, we both loved you, we couldn't agree how to take care of you so we asked a judge to help, the judge decided this, now you go to different houses where different rules apply' and let her fill in how she feels about different things, what it's like for her to move between houses. With lots of reassurance that you love her. You can do a similar thing acting out with dolls eg her dad is a doll and you are a doll, she moves between them.

Then I'd also work with her to draw up a list of rules that apply at your house, explain it's different at your house to her dad's house. So things like being kind, telling people if we feel upset, tidying up after ourselves etc.

And help her with strategies for what she should do if she feels upset, eg set up a cosy corner where she can retreat, or things she can do if she's worried (fidget toys, snow globe things etc).

It's hard but try not to get upset and fixated on the details of how she behaves (she's rude to me, snatches etc) but what she's communicating to you when she does that (I don't feel safe, I'm not sure you love me, I'm a bad person etc).

I do feel for you, you've obviously been through a lot but your problem is a traumatised child, not a naughty one.

Can you afford to pay privately for her to see someone who is skilled in working with children who have lived in a household where abuse is happening? I think there's a mix of trauma and your ex trying to poison her against you. You really need professional help, even if she won't engage you can still find out how to help her yourself. Even if you could afford even a couple of sessions a professional could help you understand what's going on and how to handle it. It must be incredibly confusing for her two very different households and I'm guessing a Dad whose telling her all sorts of nasty things about her mum. It's a recipe for acting out.

This is great advice. She is traumatized not naughty or mean.

Smetimes I've found it helpful to reframe things to myself. The narrative we write for our lives effects the way we react to the people around us. The narrative you're telling yourself is that she is naughty/mean/no empathy, it might be helpful to remind yourself when these thoughts arose that she has been through a lot in her 7 years, she has been in a household where abuse was being perpetrated, she then didn't see her father for a time, which can still be a truama whether he's a good or bad Dad and now she's dealing with these two very different households and feeling like she's naughty and trying to work out who she can trust, Dad's telling her things and she doesn't know who's right or what happened or if she's naughty or can do bo wrong (Dad's view). It's a lot for a 7 year old to cope with.

I agree it’s absolutely a lot for her to deal with. I told them again and again in court. When I write these things I know where they all stem from. The consequences of the behaviour is effecting the whole family especially her little sister. Her mummy is constantly stressed and doesn’t know where to turn anymore. I feel parenting along side her father is impossible.

How do I get across that these behaviours are “naughty” or “unkind”? If reward, punishment, taking stuff away, praising good behaviour, books, role play doesn’t work. She does dangerous things that I can’t just let her get away with. I don’t want her to grow up and think nothing has a consequence. Mean words hurt, hitting hurts etc?

OP..for the Love of..

You are not letting a 7 year old CHILD walk all over you.

Screw good cop bad cop. She doesn't need a friend, she needs a stern figure and a firm hand to guide her. You are her mother and honestly, you need to remind her of where she stands in your family hierarchy before she ends up like one of those "problem kids" on T.V

Have a look at play therapy online. It’s a safe space where children can work through their emotions. It’s not cheap and you need to commit weekly for a few months but might be really helpful here.

The other thing which I find helpful for mine with having different rules in different houses is talking about what rules they will have when they’re the mummy. Interestingly mine both prefer dads rules but when faced with a choice they both choose something similar to mine for their child. It opens conversation about healthy food/sensible decisions etc etc without any criticism of their dad.

@wildseas thanks for the advice.

I have tried to talk about rules and why we need them, her teacher also. Recently a school friend had to have 10 baby teeth removed because her parents let her drink what she wanted. Although sad for her friend as she is just a child I tried to use that scenario to explain what happens when there are no rules. I’m trying to explain consequences in a hope she will also learn that to get kindness we give kindness and it’s good to be kind first and it’s nice to receive kindness, but also we can be kind and it not be reciprocated and not always expect something etc etc. But that’s far off I think.

How do I get across that these behaviours are “naughty” or “unkind”?
She already knows that certain behaviours are naughty or unkind, and she knows you think she is unkind. That's why she said "I know why you got me this book" - she thinks you believe she is an unkind person and that's why you got her the book.
I think therapy would be really helpful - not just for her, but for you too, and ideally you and her together.

She is seven, so you are the boss here, and you are responsible for whether the relationship works or not.

Your former relationship with her father tints your view of everything she does. You need therapy for that.

You are blaming her. She 'stole', 'She disrespects me on a daily basis. She has told me to die. She lies, cheats, steals in order to get what she wants'. She is seven. Have some pity for her. She's had a disrupted life with a father who abused her mother and a new 'stepfather' that the mother expects her to be happy to cuddle up with. She's tried her fucking hardest to do what was expected.

Now, she has to cope with the father and a new 'stepmother' at weekends. God only knows what they're saying to her about you and your partner, or about her life.

So:
Therapy for you, to help you see the child and her behaviour completely free from the stain of her father's abuse.
Therapy for the child, so she has someone outside the family to talk to about the situations she finds herself in.
Between the you and her - talk, and listen. Explain what you want from her and listen to what she wants from you. She's only small but she will have some ideas.
Set clear and consistent boundaries.
Forget words like 'naughty'. Talk about impacts, not punishments. 'Sarah, if you take the crisps and eat them, you won't want your supper. And, there will be no crisps to have with our sandwiches for lunch tomorrow.' And stick to it. She's not 'naughty', she's a child in distress.
Rediscover your confidence in yourself. You can parent just fine - you've got her this far. Be positive. You're the mummy, you can do this, she can trust you.

And if you want to talk to my forty year old dd about how badly I got it wrong, I'll try not to feel bad about that. I've read a lot since then.

You sound frustrated about how she acts and I can understand that because she's disruptive and probably unpleasant to be around a lot of the time. You do need to deal with that and lay down what's acceptable.

But playing up is a symptom of something else that needs to be addressed, she's basically saying 'fuck you, I won't follow your rules because I don't feel safe and loved'.

You mention things like not seeing her on mother's day, you being stressed, her sister being upset - you're not seeing the wood for the trees, you're feeling sorry for yourself when she's the child who is trying to tell you she's in pain. She's not going to magically snap out of this, it might not be your fault but it's you who needs to step up find a way to help her. I think it's a lot to manage yourself so you need some outside help.

But playing up is a symptom of something else that needs to be addressed, she's basically saying 'fuck you, I won't follow your rules because I don't feel safe and loved'.

She may also simply believe that she is a bad person. This is not unusual in children whose parents break up - sometimes they feel the breakup might be partly their fault, sometimes one of the parents is in the role of the "baddie" and they might feel tainted by association.
Sometimes children in her situation suddenly get less attention because the parents are very busy with their problems or having to work long hours - at a moment when the child may have a lot of new stress factors through the breakup, change of home/school etc. That can also make the child feel unwanted and thus "bad". (Not that the parents are giving her that impression, just because the child is intelligent enough to notice things have changed but is not old nough to realise it's not her fault.)

When you feel "bad" or feel as if people are accusing you of being bad, what can you do? You can either try to be really good ... or, if you don't think you can achieve that, you can claim that you don't want to be good. Do you see the logic that "trying to be bad and succeeding" could feel better than "trying to be good and failing"?

It must be horrible to deal with, but watch out: trying to be stricter and lecture her on bad behaviour could really backfire, if anything like that is going on in her head. Get the professionals in if you can.

Have a look at therapeutic parenting with PACE principles. It’s a way of parenting shown to have good results with traumatised kids - a bit counter intuitive at times but very effective when done consistently. It focuses on building relationship with your child over purely behaviour management. You’ll find lots of stuff online and on Facebook.

At the moment your DD won’t know if she’s coming or going, of course she’ll like the free for all at her dads, but needs connection, boundaries and relationship to thrive. Also get some therapy support for yourself to process your own experiences, at the moment you’re seeing your relationship with your child through the lens of her fathers abuse of you, making sense of the abuse will help you see your DD as an equal victim in all of this, because that’s what she is.

This thread dealt with similar issues. There are some good responses on it that might help your situation. It is incredibly difficult and complex.

If you can at all afford it, even by sacrificing other things then please pay for private therapy for her, and also yourself. The waiting list for NHS is long and Cahms services are desperately underfunded. She needs help now, this week. Please please do this for her.

I don’t see her has bad at all, I don’t tell her these things. I’ve tried desperately to praise and work with her but when she has a choice she seems to always choose something negative. I know where its come from, I know she is a victim. I’ve spent thousands, practically everything I had at court to try and keep her safe but it hasn’t really worked so far. Nobody will help us at school. I can’t afford to go privately. But I will contact the gp.

She's old enough to come up with the idea (or just the feeling) that she's bad herself without anyone telling her any such thing. You could tell her how much better it is when everyone is kind and she could translate that into "you are bad", effectively. You never know what's going on in their heads: they're smart enough to come up with some really complicated, subtle stuff, but still get totally the wrong end of the stick. When she said "I know why you got me this book", did she say why?

My DD is autistic, so a bit different, but the years 8 - 9 have been very difficult with emotional outbursts going through the roof, lots of sensory issues....she also has a difficult father (my ex). I found the book 'The explosive child' very helpful. Social Stories can be good. Your DD's obviously very canny and seen through the kindness books. You could try asking the school or GP to refer her to CAHMS but that can be a long wait. I'd probably try and find a private counsellor if I were you...but do try the book suggested above. The premise is that if children can do well, they will, and strategies for understanding what's really going on and coming up with solutions to problem behaviour.

@80s she said you bought me these books because I know you want me to be kind but I don’t want to be kind then put them in the bin.