Can a real narcissist change?

[Cookiemonster83]

Is it something in the brain that can’t be undone, like faulty wiring?

Can you have a good upbringing and just be wired that way or does it need to adverse child experiences etc?

Very few people are ‘true’ narcissists although most exes on here are, oddly.

Yeah let’s say for the sake of arguments this is a real one.

He's not going to change. You need to move on.

It’s not for my relationship, I’m just interested.

I don't think they will change. It's kind of entrenched and they don't usually seek help or see any kind of problem.

Nope. My ex is a narcissist. It really looked like he'd changed with his current partner – for years, even – but nope. He's back to his same old self and in his eyes, he's done nothing wrong, it's all her fault.

There's like a genetic deposition. But im inclined to agree with the argument that is that it formed ages 2-3 (And borderline personality disorder age 3-4). Via Trauma/failure to meet the child's emotional needs.

Can't be diagnosed until 18 of course but looking back I could see it in a few children in childhood. We all knew the school bully was a sociopath. It's the same thing. It's around from a young age.

I'd agree with the comment about 'true' narcissists. But imo they are simply the worst end of the spectrum. There's plenty low level and medium level narcs too.

2 things narcissism is a personality trait as well as a disorder. You can be high in the personality trait and not have the disorder.

It is upbringing that is most linked to narcissism so either a grandiose upbringing where the person is told that they are the best in every sphere according to their parent and then they start to buy into the distortion or a second known cause is a completely emotionally invalidating upbringing where the same distortion takes hold as a defence mechanism to the parents lack of holding up an accurate reflection of the developing child.

Most people have a pretty healthy “professional”
persona that they put out into the working world that follows reasonable social rules but they have a second more real part of their personality that they keep for their inner circle.

Narcissists have a toxic outer persona and to all intents and purposes they have fused their inner home personality to that toxic persona and it is really, really difficult to prise them apart. So in short NPD is really really difficult to treat.

@Moonicorn, Very few people are formally diagnosed with NPD but most high conflict divorces involve a person with NPD.

I don't know why people find it had to believe because it's estimated at least 1 in 25 people are physcopaths, in some professions it could be as high as 1 in 8. All physcopaths are narcisists.

Those who specialise in NPD believe it's a combination of nature (lack of empathy due to a deficiency in frontal lobe) and adverse childhood. From my experience I think genetics is an important factor.

No. No empathy, no remorse, completely self absorbed. They can appear to have changed, promise they have changed, promise that it's different this time from the last 100 times - but they will only ever be saying and doing what's best for them. It's a personality disorder often as a result of a genetic predisposition and a traumatic childhood, it can't be cured.

I only ask as my daughter who is seven has been worrying me lately. It may be normal child things to say, she is 7. Her father is a narcissist and was denied contact for 3 years by a judge. We were talking this morning and I said it’s nice to do things for others, it makes you feel warm inside. She said in return I only want to do things for myself. Like I said could be nothing. She is also not really sorry when she says horrible things, will never apologise.

@Pinkbonbon thats really worrying what you said. My ex was a narcissist and wasnt allowed contact with daughter from the age of 3 and a half for 3 years. She is displaying some signs that I’m concerned about. It may be nothing. I thought I got her away before any damage could be done.

No

That is normal for many children empathy is instead and a developed skill. It is not normal for an adult though

Instead should say innate.

To be fair, 7 is around the time they start to think outwith themselves. So it might be that just that she's still young.

People will tell you it's normal for kids to be selfish. I agree to an extent. But we all know the difference between regular selfish and 'wow wtf, what a selfish cow!' even as kids on the playground.

So if you're getting gut instincts, trust them.
It does form young. And it needs to be tackled young.

Might be worthwhile reading books about how to develop empathy in children. Things like getting her a pet to take care of could help her to think outwith herself too.

Its also worth considering that autism or other things besides personality disorders could be present.

Might be worthwhile having her see a gp and perhaps a therapist.

Ps: don't panic.
It may be nothing.

But it's really good you are paying attention to your child's behaviour and not one of those idiots that raise obvious sociopaths and then go 'we don't know where we went wrong' after doing nothing to prevent their path of destruction. Even though their personality was evident from a young age, if they'd just paid attention.

We got her gerbils and she picked it up by the tail and swung it around laughing.

This psychologist / therapist says the attitude now is that Yes, narcissists can change in therapy if they are motivated, and she has an article on When you're the narcissist which might be of interest.

See I would find that worrying at that age.

I have a 7 year old and she just wants to feed animals and make sure they're happy. (She's a bit too scared of most animals to stroke them)

The not seeing her gerbils as feeling sentient beings would worry me. Have her teachers said anything? What did she say when you corrected her?

Sorry. I don't know what your next steps would be but I think you're right to keep an eye on this. You're a great parent. At least she has you.

I would also be concerned about how she treated the gerbils.
How did you respond at the time? Did her emotion change after you reacted?

That is worrying behaviour and I would definitely say that constitutes a low level of empathy for the age so definitely worth trying to work with someone to develop this.

A friend has a child with similar difficulties with empathy aged nearly 12 now. There is a type of impulsive “cause and effect” behaviour where some kids get a genuine thrill out of trying something typically negative on other children or on animals to see the reaction or effect they get.

It quickly becomes a very antisocial type of behaviour and definitely the child I know with it gets routinely excluded by other children because of his past behaviours to his own detriment. He is getting to the stage where his behaviour is soon going to have significant consequences (potentially legal as the years go by) for him and in his case they have not been able to access the psychological input that he needs in spite of his mother trying to get it.

@RebelliousStarrChild she just laughed to be honest. Then half the tail fell off and we padlocked the cage so she can’t open it again.

Well she is honest with you, so that's a plus?

Empathy is what she needs to develop. Being in the shoes of the other person (or gerbil)

I'm pretty sure my child did something not nice to our cat and I said how would you like it if ...
Well she burst into tears. Clearly that hit home. And it has been said more than once.

Shes through that now and is appropriately empathetic.

Just parent strongly to get the empathy message across, consistently. Personality is not fixed at any age I don't think. You can help her.

Oh gosh. At 7?

Yeah thats terrifying.
She needs to be in some sort of intensive therapy aimed at developing empathy. Like, yesterday.

Assuming there is such a thing tbf.
If not, you're going to have to go down the rabbit hole of reading and research yourself. Email people prominent in dealing with antisocial personality disorders in children ect... see what they can suggest and refer you to.

Discipline also needs to be kept on top of.