My relationship with 7 year old daughter is breaking down and I don’t know what to do anymore. Please offer some support if you can.

[Myfirstborn]

Please be kind this is killing me.

I share a daughter, 7, with my ex, she was 3 when I left due to abuse. He took it to court but was found guilty and after a few years no access and a bit of supervised access has been given every other weekend. I and he have new relationships. I’ve been with mine a few years and in the beginning his and her relationship was lovely.

Everything is slowly going downhill. Especially since contact has started. Daughter was always a little difficult. I don’t blame her. For the first 3 years when her parents were together her dad abused her mum and he manipulated dd. Her dad would not parent with me and said it’s his job to be the good cop and me the bad. He would do no naughty step, but buy, feed her what she wanted, let her do what she wanted. If that meant she had a whole six pack of crisps then so be it. Narcissistic behaviour really. He was manipulating her, he needed her love. When the judge denied him contact I must admit I felt guilty and perhaps was too gentle on her in those early years. I’ve made a rod for my own back people tell me. But these behaviours were visible before the contact stopped when she was 3.

This behaviour has just got worse and worse. She disrespects me on a daily basis. She has told me to die. She lies, cheats, steals in order to get what she wants, at all costs really. She doesn’t care if things get taken away or she can’t have it later as long as she gets it at that point. She is awful to my partner now, says she hates him ( she used to say she loved him and gave him cuddles). Their relationship is breaking down. He also sees how she treats me and he finds it upsetting.

If she wants something she will just take it despite me telling her she needs to ask. When I say anything to her I just get I will tell my dad on you and he will come and shout at you. When she gets told off or called out she will react with anger and will then blame her outburst on me, or whoever calls her out. She is doing it at school also. If someone takes something from her because she refuses to share she will bite them or push them. She will blame her reaction on them. She if asked will not feel sorry or understand that hurting another isn’t kind.

I ordered her some age appropriate books last week to read to her. One was called Kindness is my super power. She saw it on the table and said I know why you bought me this then proceeded to throw it in the bin saying I don’t want to be kind.

I feel awful saying it and I try so desperately to word it in this way but I hate her behaviour. I don’t like taking her around family for dinners etc as she will make her cousins cry when she constantly cheats on games. She steals others sweets etc. She says things eg for Mother’s Day yesterday we went to the in-laws for dinner and she looked up at the table and went “urgh are we still here”. She was then told no more cake so she stole 3
in the end that she got caught out.

I don’t know what to do. I’m guessing that our differing parent techniques has done this. Her father puts her on a pedestal and manipulates this for his advantage. She has always loved it, who wouldn’t rather do and get what they want. I try and enforce boundaries but it’s not working. I try and teach her consequences but she doesn’t get it at all. She didn’t even want to spend Mother’s Day with me, she wanted to go to her dads so she can get bought toys and he doesn’t make me do anything. When I told her that she’d be with mummy yesterday she got so angry at me. I must admit I got a bit teary, that’s my little girl.

I feel I’m loosing her.

I will try the reward chart again. Ive tried various methods many times but she gets bored and ends up saying I don’t want the reward. I ask her why and she says I want to do what I want to do. I’m not asking incase you say no. I don’t want to get ready for school or put away my toys for nothing. I take things Incase you say no. I don’t ask to use things incase you say no. She knows not to keep playing with the sink and leaving the plug in and tap running and to ask if she wants water but won’t ask incase this time it will be a no. No is not a word she can handle.

Yesterday she asked for some chocolate raisins. She had eaten most of an Easter egg already so I said no. She goes into the kitchen and I follow quietly and she is stuffing the raisins down her knickers. I said no means no and she tells me she hates her life and hates it here.

This sounds an awful situation and I hope it does start to improve for you. One thing I find helps with my DD (6) when she come back from her dad's is having some set mummy time where we play games or go out for dinner together, I don't have any other DC so this is easier for me to arrange but I feel it's helps with our bonding and starting off 'mummy time' Her dad has no rules and let's her do what she wants so I have explained to her that it's fine we have different rules and I acknowledge with her it's hard to understand that we expect different things , we both love her and just want her to be happy. I think she likes that I'm more structured but still make sure I have fun with her. She's also starting to see that I'm the one who does her nails, cleans her ears, makes sure she has everything she needs etc so she feels more comfortable upsetting me as she knows I'm always going to be there and have a more stable lifestyle. One of the rewards she loves is a 'yes day' - this is where I let her choose how the days goes, what we have for breakfast, lunch, dinner, what activity we do etc. This has I volved disco's at 7am, her choosing my outfit but I find it's a good bit of fun. I set rules around it so it's can't be stuff that's dangerous or too expensive but it helps me move away from being the strict one all the time.

We do loads of fun things and go on nice days out but it can’t always be yes for what you want. She does not respect that currently. She got in trouble at school for pulling down her friends trousers even though she said no stop and then cried. She doesn’t respect anyone’s boundaries. Nothing so far is working.

I would ask the school for help, it may be quicker than going through the GP. My eldest was around 7/8 when her ADHD really kicked in, and there may be other issues here than normal boundary pushing behaviour. It would help to get those ruled out if nothing else.

I can relate to your daughter a lot. When I was a similar age to her my dad was physically and emotionally abusive to my mum, in front of us. My mum had an affair and left my dad, and I ended up living with her and the OM (who I despised). I adored my dad, I hated my mum for what she did, I thought she had split the family (I am sure my dad influenced that). My dad let me do whatever I wanted. My mum tried hard to implement rules but I knew if I pushed hard enough I would get my way. I guess I essentially bullied her the way my dad showed me how to??

My only suggestions from my own childhood is that I wished my mum dug her heels in deeper with me and punished me properly and followed through each time. I wish someone had disciplined me! It made for such rough child and teenage years.

From this, my only suggestion is to keep at it. Have the rules, have the rewards, and have the punishments - make them count.

Also, are there any activities you and her can start doing together? Something special and exclusive to you two? Something to take you both away from this messy situation and have some time to connect away from it all?

youre doing the right thing in looking for things to praise. But maybe also going super minute in what you reward would help.

When my DD is going through a rough patch (similar situation with ex, no new partner to contend with but suspected ADHD) I praise EVERYTHING. Like she’s a toddler. I praise her for washing her hands after using the toilet. I praise her for flushing it. I praise her for playing with toys- using her imagination to make up a game, tell her how fantastic she’s imagining things. I take her to the playground and praise her for running in the fresh air, as it’s good for your body. We also have a marble jar and she gets a marble for those things, and a reward when the jar is full. Normally it’s an activity she’d enjoy, like slime or painting nails or baking, rather than a new toy.

It makes her feel good that when she’s struggling with her behaviour, she’s still doing great stuff even if she doesn’t realise it. And I notice these things. I still see good in her when she’s finding things hard.

I also tell her explicitly- I love you forever. Whatever you do, I know you’re a good person, and I love you. Sometimes she answers ‘even when I’m naughty?’ I tell her yes. That’s when you need extra help to remember why we behave well. I’m your Mummy, it’s my job to show you, and I love you all the time, whatever you do.

If it helps at all, Relate offers children’s play therapy. We are on the waiting list for this too.

In addition to my post ^, have you ever really had a good chat with her about why everything is this way? Why her mummy and daddy couldn't be together? Why she couldn't see her daddy for a few years? I think it is important to have (semi) regular conversations about it all. Hopefully she will open up to you more with how she is feeling. Other than my parents announcing the divorce, I don't recall us ever really discussing it. Also, I am sure you already do this, but as the PP have said, telling her often how much you love her, how she is your #1 etc is really important too.

Did you take the raisins off her?

@RedHelenB yes I took them off her and explained that I said no and she said you made me do it and got mad.

Hi OP, I think her behaviour is past normal childhood boundary pushing and disobedience if she's biting/assaulting children at school for no reason, and not understanding why it's wrong. Did she apologise to the child who's trousers she pulled down? Did she understand why the child was upset?

If you think back, does she feel/express empathy in no family situations - like watching a TV show, or friends or pets/animals etc? Because it could be that either due to her childhood or just inherently, she lacks empathy. And this is something that will have to be taught to her, with the help of a professional. Don't excuse the behaviour as just the fall out of a difficult childhood - her anger isn't just directed at you, it's directed at everyone including the manipulation of your other daughter. This is the age when behaviours do stick, so it's good you recognise and worry about it. But I do think she needs professional counselling and support because it doesn't feel like plain old disciplining and reward/validation is working or will work. She's quite clever and can see through it when you try.

*non family situations

Because that is what she is getting from her father.

I'm as sure as a stranger can be that he is telling her he loves her and that's why he doesn't have any boundaries.

It's something common in children who are fostered / adopted, they need parents to prove they love them so they act up.

She is confused, she has gone from an abusive relationship (even if the abuse was not aimed at her) to just her and mum, to her mum, step dad and new baby and now going to dad's on a weekend.

In seven years that's a lot of changes, substantial changes.

I know it is really hard but she needs IMHO consistency.

The thing about teaching her baby sister to be rude is probably coming from her dad.

If she says that again don't get angry or upset just ask her why she said it, that you will not be angry but you want to know why she thinks that is OK.

Am I making any sense?

@Myfirstborn you need to educate yourself on what trauma (such as domestic violence) does to young children.

Here's an article to start with https://www.nctsn.org/what-is-child-trauma/trauma-types/complex-trauma/effects#:~:text=Children%20who%20have%20experienced%20complex,depression%2C%20anxiety%2C%20or%20anger.

This isn't about you and your ex, it is about your daughter. You need to seek professional assistance to work with both you and your daughter to try and address the damage that has been done. She has learnt that her world isn't safe. She has learnt how to placate a scary part of that world. She is protecting herself the only way she can.

I’ve sat her down and tried to have a talk with her but it goes round in circles. All I can get from her is that in dads house she can do what she wants so is not bad. In my house she gets in trouble because she wants to do what she wants but can’t so she is bad. She wants to be with her dad because she is not bad there. She wants to be bad here. I’ve always explained it’s her behaviour that is not always good not that she isn’t good. I’ve also explained that I’m here to parent her and that letting her do what she wants is not good. I love her and want her to be the best she can. Just like they do at school, there are rules and boundaries for their and everyone’s benefit.

She then went on to say something about her baby sister. She says she hates her and that she wants to kill her. She said she will do it with a knife 8 times. But she is smiling when talking. I was shocked and probably looked shocked she then back tracked and started to cry and said I shouldn’t have said that I didn’t mean it. I’m really not sure what that was about? Whether she just said something awful to see how I would react. I asked how that would make her feel if she did that and she said I would want to die myself. It’s so deep for a small child.

The thing is it’s easy to keep up the facade because he only has her for a couple of days. He requested half the holidays at court but is only asking for days at a time now. Unless she is with them for a substantial amount of time it will always be boundary less there. His girlfriend is compliant but I doubt she would want her house being run by a 7 year old for long. Every other weekend is ok.

She says she hates her and that she wants to kill her. She said she will do it with a knife 8 times.

Bloody hell that's specific.

I hope that you can get her the help she needs.

If you tell the GP about the threat, they should take it more seriously. Please do look into counselling for her.

Hurt kids hurt others. She doesn’t want to be like this either but you both need help to get her through it.

Definitely talk about her threat of killing your other daughter to your GP. It might be just her way of dealing with trauma, or she might genuinely lack empathy/remorse/have the making of a personality disorder - it's too big a risk to the safety of other children. You have responsibility to both your DC and you can't diagnose her yourself or minimise threats.

I grew up with a mum with likely undiagnosed BPD and a very difficult relationship with her and my father who enabled her. It never made me want to hurt others, so i don't think excusing all harmful behaviour based on a difficult childhood is correct. She needs professional help before this escalates to violence as a pre teen. I think by focusing on her dad and his role in his life you're ignoring the fact that neither of you as parents have any control over her, neither does the school.

It sounds so so difficult OP and I'm wondering if a small thing you could maybe look at using might be a 'low arousal' verbal technique that is designed for children with PDA. It aims to reduce what the child might perceive as 'orders'... link here for a better explanation than I've probably given https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/life-with-pda-menu/family-life-intro/helpful-approaches-children/

My middle child lives with his Dad after his Dad slowly dripped poison about me into his ear for many, many years. So I feel for you.

@GenderCriticalTrumpets sounds interesting. She absolutely hates being asked to do something and it will 99% of the time be met with a firm NO. She knows to wash her hands after the toilet or to get dressed but she simply can’t do it. Perhaps she feels happier with her dad as there are no demands of her because he doesn’t do school runs or homework etc and she can do what she likes, wear what she likes even if she goes out for a walk and is freezing cold. Although he has an ulterior motive she may prefer this. In the long term no boundaries is not good for her though.

What I don’t get though is she is happy to follow the rules at school and they have no real issue with her behaviour. She is able to control her behaviour in that situation. She also doesn’t talk to her dad like she does to me.

Do school really not have any issue with her behaviour? You've written she talks over teachers, bites other children, pulled down someone's trousers and is mean to the other kids and doesn't understand why it's wrong. It seems very lax that school haven't flagged this as a behaviour issue?

It sounds like she might benefit from play therapy. Its basically a way of helping small children express their emotions and show them appropriate behaviour through using toys and art.

OP, you need to take that threat against your younger child seriously and use it to hopefully get professional help for your 7 year old. Maybe she was just saying it to shock you but maybe not, these things do happen.

I'm not trying to alarm you but I worked with a NHS unit that supported families dealing with serious childhood mental psychiatric conditions & extreme behaviour. One 6 year old had tried to kill his little sister by pushing the buggy into a bonfire. Only very quick reactions by an adult prevented disaster. Definitely deliberate, he'd talked about wanting to hurt her before. It wasn't the only example I heard either, just one of the worst. Remember, Jamie Bulger's killers were only 10 years old. Just being children doesn't prevent some doing terrible things.

Whether her behaviour is due to her father's influence, trauma, an undiagnosed condition like PDA or just her own personality doesn't matter, she needs help and this may be the thing that helps you access it. I'm sorry you are having to cope with this.

Find a trauma informed psychotherapist for you and your DD. Not all counsellors or therapists have the same training or can really help you or she...

How old is her baby sister OP?

It's quite common for behaviour to deteriorate rapidly with the addition of a sibling... and if it's a first baby for your DP and baby gets lots of fuss/attention, it wouldn't be unusual for her to get attention in whatever way she can. Namely playing you up. Sometimes it can help to completely ignore the bad behaviour and only notice the good?