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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Desperately in need of help to understand my wife (and myself)!

373 replies

greengriff · 21/02/2023 12:14

I’m really in need of some advice. My relationship with my wife is currently at its lowest ebb. There are many reasons, but I wanted to focus on just one of them, an incident that took place on holiday last year. I want to talk about this incident firstly because my wife described this it as the ‘breaking point’ in our marriage and that it caused her to hate me a little bit, and secondly because I don’t understand why she blames me for it and I would really, really like to.

First a bit of what I believe is relevant background information: My wife grew up with a very domineering father. She chafed under his rules and couldn’t wait to get out of his house and rule her own life. Consequently, anything she even perceives as an attempt by me to tell her what to do is like a red rag to a bull and is guaranteed to lead to an instant confrontation. She views these kind of moments through the dynamic of sex (i.e. ‘you think because you’re the man that you should be in charge..’ etc.) whereas I view them as simply a clash of two quite dominant personalities. She very much emphasizes her independence as a grown woman from the need for a man and considers it patronising and reacts negatively if I ever have an opinion (apart from praise) regarding how she’s doing something. She is an extremely intelligent, strong-willed and capable person who, if she decides she’s going to do something, will work ceaselessly until she does. She’s definitely not one of life’s victims.

Anyway, to the point: We were on a skiing holiday last year. The slope at the time was very icy but pitch-wise it was nothing extreme. To give some perspective she’d skied steeper slopes many dozens (maybe even hundreds) of times before and there were at least a hundred other people on it of all levels. But it was indeed icy and unpleasant to ski and she was not definitely having fun, so - seeing that she was struggling - I offered to help. She shouted some abuse at me and skied off. Feeling thoroughly pssed off that an attempted act of kindness elicited such an unexpected response, I skied off in a different direction to do my own thing. When we met back at the hotel in the afternoon she told me that I’d abandoned her, leaving her scared and alone, ignored her calls, left her with no money and no idea how to get back to the hotel and that the whole thing was my fault. This obviously irritated the living sht out of me as I believed that I’d done nothing wrong and was in fact the wronged party.

This argument never really went away and we got stuck into it again last night, where some extra details were added that only increased my frustration and lack of understanding of her, and maybe even myself:

She said she needs a husband who’s there for her regardless of what she says. But for me it’s not what she says, it’s what she does. If she insults me and storms off am I supposed to go and plead with her to come back?

She then said that I would not have left a child in the same situation, to which I agreed, but said that she is a capable and responsible adult and therefore it’s different. She then said she wants the same kind of love and caring that I’d give a child and that she needs me to ‘be the man’ and ‘be her hero’ and be committed to her safety even when she’s acting like a twat.

And finally she said that she wants someone who would move a mountain for her even when she’d directly told them not to!

Thinking about this just makes my head ache! For 99.9% of the time in our relationship if I’d gone directly against her wishes or treated her like I would a child it would have led to an explosion that made Hiroshima look tame! Yet I’m supposed to do this – to ‘be the man’ and make her act against her own will – at certain times when she’s most angry and attacking? And not doing so is my fault and makes her hate me!?

What does this actually mean? That her ‘independent woman’ persona is not real? That it is real, right up until the moment that it isn’t, and I’m supposed to know when those moments are and switch role to the helpful patriarch? Something else?

If someone can shed some light on this please do as I’m really struggling. If I can’t solve this puzzle our relationship is likely to fail, and that’s the last thing I want.

Maybe it’s not her and there’s actually something wrong with me! If you think so, please tell me straight!

OP posts:
SoCunningYouCanStickATailOnItAndCallItAFox · 23/02/2023 11:54

@AdamRyan 👌

AdamRyan · 23/02/2023 11:57

That's all important because it explains the nuance.
Getting scared on a slope and shouting "piss off!" at your partner who tells you to just get on with it, you are fine. I think that's understandable, heat of the moment verbal aggression. I'd expect an apology but I'd also understand what triggered that behaviour.

Shouting "you always fucking do this, why can you never leave me alone, I hate you, you fucking cunt" is unacceptable verbal abuse. I'd expect a huge grovelling apology and if it happened regularly I'd be leaving.

It's impossible to tell from OPs description which scenario we are dealing with.

BadNomad · 23/02/2023 12:15

He said she was struggling with the slope. He asked if she was alright and did she want to stop for a bit. She told him to "fuck off" then skied off. Read the rest of his posts. She's explosive, goes on the attack, confrontational etc any time she perceives him thinking she is weak. She wasn't scared of the slope, she was just frustrated at herself and, as usual, took his concern as an accusation of weakness and verbally attacked him again. You could maybe excuse it if this was out of the ordinary with her, but it is clearly a pattern and that day he had enough.

If I was him I probably would have given her the finger before going off in a different direction too. Fuck that shit.

AdamRyan · 23/02/2023 13:35

She's explosive, goes on the attack, confrontational etc any time she perceives him thinking she is weak. She wasn't scared of the slope, she was just frustrated at herself and, as usual, took his concern as an accusation of weakness and verbally attacked him again

Do you know her or did you get all this from a post he wrote about one incident?

BeachBlondey · 23/02/2023 13:38

Whilst your wife shouldn't have snapped at you on the slopes, boy did you get your own back and then some.

You went off in a different direction
You went AWOL for the rest of the day
You ignored all of her calls
You went back to the hotel on the bus, without telling her

So, she was left completely adrift, wondering where you were. She didn't know whether you'd gone back to the hotel, or were still at the slopes. She wouldn't have known whether to hang around, or get the bus.

My DH and I have had some terrible rows in our time, but he would never ever abandon me abroad and go missing for hours.

Quite unforgivable and I'm not surprised she doesn't want to travel with you after that.

WidthofaLine · 23/02/2023 13:55

BeachBlondey · 23/02/2023 13:38

Whilst your wife shouldn't have snapped at you on the slopes, boy did you get your own back and then some.

You went off in a different direction
You went AWOL for the rest of the day
You ignored all of her calls
You went back to the hotel on the bus, without telling her

So, she was left completely adrift, wondering where you were. She didn't know whether you'd gone back to the hotel, or were still at the slopes. She wouldn't have known whether to hang around, or get the bus.

My DH and I have had some terrible rows in our time, but he would never ever abandon me abroad and go missing for hours.

Quite unforgivable and I'm not surprised she doesn't want to travel with you after that.

I agree, and I think op has blown it, whether he can get his head round that in a factual or feeling way is neither here nor there.

Your apologising skills are dreadful and you will lose her, fact.

You behaved badly, worse than her on that day, yet you will not own your bad behaviour, it doesn't matter whether factually you believe you were in the right, your punishment outweighed the crime.

BadNomad · 23/02/2023 14:04

AdamRyan · 23/02/2023 13:35

She's explosive, goes on the attack, confrontational etc any time she perceives him thinking she is weak. She wasn't scared of the slope, she was just frustrated at herself and, as usual, took his concern as an accusation of weakness and verbally attacked him again

Do you know her or did you get all this from a post he wrote about one incident?

"anything she even perceives as an attempt by me to tell her what to do is like a red rag to a bull and is guaranteed to lead to an instant confrontation"

"She views these kind of moments through the dynamic of sex (i.e. ‘you think because you’re the man that you should be in charge..’ etc.)"

"She very much emphasizes her independence as a grown woman from the need for a man and considers it patronising and reacts negatively if I ever have an opinion (apart from praise) regarding how she’s doing something"

"seeing that she was struggling - I offered to help. She shouted some abuse at me and skied off"

"For 99.9% of the time in our relationship if I’d gone directly against her wishes or treated her like I would a child it would have led to an explosion that made Hiroshima look tame!"

"I'd be happy to know that, when push comes to shove, she'd like me to take the lead. But she's spent our entire relationship insisting on the opposite! Then suddenly I'm in the wrong for not doing what she's always insisted I should not do."

"she'd spent years telling me just how independent she is"

"she is very loving and open, kind and funny and easy to get along with as long as you don't touch any of the 'hot buttons' (i.e. perceived as criticising her, perceived as trying to tell her what to do, perceived as making fun of her)."

"I honestly think if I told her that I think she needs counselling then her head would explode!"
.
.
That sound like a woman with a pattern of reacting verbally aggressively to perceived criticism of her ability to do things for herself. But I'm going to guess you'll disagree.

AdamRyan · 23/02/2023 14:10

I'm going to say I have no idea

OP has given one example. Even based on his perspective, there's people saying she might have a point.

I don't know what "an explosion" entails

I don't know what "confrontation" entails

On the basis of what he's written I have no idea whether she's feisty and opinionated, or emotionally and verbally abusive. Usually on relationships threads it's clearer.

WidthofaLine · 23/02/2023 14:32

@BadNomad

Then if he believes his wife is so unreasonable why has he not metered out his justice by leaving her.
If the balance of power so unequal do you not think op has the factual answers and is capable of inflicting the right punishment for her continually and unfairly being the explosive one, with op never doing anything wrong or having an opposing opinion.

He sounds quite opinionated to me, perfectly capable of holding a conversation or argument that presents his point of view, he's no cuckhold.
I don't believe this man meekly allows his wife to get her own way all the time, quite the opposite I think he would argue the toss forever.

What he is angry about is that his wife won't agree on the punishment he metered out to her that day, he was the judge, jury and executioner and his arguing is about his right to do so, factually and without feeling.

She may as well be married to a brick for all the empathy he has displayed.

Op I don't think you realise there are men out there that would NEVER do this to their wives, under no circumstances would they want their wives to feel afraid or vunerable, whether you agree with them being so empathic doesn't matter, the fact is there are men that care better than you, whether your wife chooses one of those to explore the world with, safely, is up to her.

BadNomad · 23/02/2023 14:33

Most of the people who have said they understand why she does what she does, say it is because they recognise it in themselves. But they also have insight and recognise that it isn't right and have worked to try to change it.

Others can't see beyond their man-hating bias. If she'd shoved him off the side of the mountain, they'd say she was justified as he was clearly an abuser.

I can't get your angle. You seem smart, well-spoken (well-written?), but you also seem determined to ignore her actions and history, to just look at his. Context is important.

It really isn't normal to blow up at your partner like that. It really isn't normal to tell someone you love to "fuck off" whenever they annoy you. It's quite shocking to me that there are people who have this kind of dynamic in their relationships and think it's ok. If he reacts similarly to her then they have a really toxic relationship which they are both to blame for.

BadNomad · 23/02/2023 14:39

WidthofaLine · 23/02/2023 14:32

@BadNomad

Then if he believes his wife is so unreasonable why has he not metered out his justice by leaving her.
If the balance of power so unequal do you not think op has the factual answers and is capable of inflicting the right punishment for her continually and unfairly being the explosive one, with op never doing anything wrong or having an opposing opinion.

He sounds quite opinionated to me, perfectly capable of holding a conversation or argument that presents his point of view, he's no cuckhold.
I don't believe this man meekly allows his wife to get her own way all the time, quite the opposite I think he would argue the toss forever.

What he is angry about is that his wife won't agree on the punishment he metered out to her that day, he was the judge, jury and executioner and his arguing is about his right to do so, factually and without feeling.

She may as well be married to a brick for all the empathy he has displayed.

Op I don't think you realise there are men out there that would NEVER do this to their wives, under no circumstances would they want their wives to feel afraid or vunerable, whether you agree with them being so empathic doesn't matter, the fact is there are men that care better than you, whether your wife chooses one of those to explore the world with, safely, is up to her.

Because he loves her? Because he wants the relationship to last? Because he knows he has flaws and so feels he has to accept hers, no matter how bad they are? Because he fights back so knows he doesn't have the moral high ground? Because it is always been this way? Because he doesn't realise it's not supposed to be this way? Because it has been like this for so long he has lost all perspective of what is normal and what is right or wrong?

There are a million reasons why people stay in relationships like this. If she is a victim, then so is he. If he is an aggressor, then so is she.

AdamRyan · 23/02/2023 14:55

BadNomad · 23/02/2023 14:33

Most of the people who have said they understand why she does what she does, say it is because they recognise it in themselves. But they also have insight and recognise that it isn't right and have worked to try to change it.

Others can't see beyond their man-hating bias. If she'd shoved him off the side of the mountain, they'd say she was justified as he was clearly an abuser.

I can't get your angle. You seem smart, well-spoken (well-written?), but you also seem determined to ignore her actions and history, to just look at his. Context is important.

It really isn't normal to blow up at your partner like that. It really isn't normal to tell someone you love to "fuck off" whenever they annoy you. It's quite shocking to me that there are people who have this kind of dynamic in their relationships and think it's ok. If he reacts similarly to her then they have a really toxic relationship which they are both to blame for.

He wrote the thread. He asked for input on his contribution. I'm replying to him.

I think in a long marriage a snappy "fuck off!" is pretty normal and while it's not respectful, it's also not horrendous.

There's nothing in his thread to suggest she routinely swears at him or does it whenever he annoys her.

Some posters may come across as mam haters to you. Some posters are definitely coming off as point scoring "double standards on MN" types to me. But the mix of views suggests its not clear cut either way so OP would do well to reflect on some of the posts that challenge his perspective.

2pence · 23/02/2023 21:13

I suppose the question is, had some misfortune befallen her on that ski-slope when you took off, something really serious, would you be able to forgive yourself?

If the answer is yes, because she was acting like a dickhead, then she has a point doesn't she?

If you acknowledge that had a terrible event occurred when she was on a ski slope alone amongst strangers and you never saw her again, then you would never get past it or forgive yourself then you're moving a little closer to understanding why she can't move past it or forgive you now.

She trusted you to always have her back, you've proved you don't by your actions.

You're perhaps confusing her comparison to leaving a child as saying she wants you to treat her like a child. I believe she's using this comparison because she was talking about the unconditional love a parent has for their child. She thought you had that together. You don't. Now she realises that she "hates you a little bit" because she was deceived in this belief. There are conditions to your love for her, I suspect her beauty is one of them as you've mentioned that as an important factor in your bond.

greengriff · 23/02/2023 21:45

2pence · 23/02/2023 21:13

I suppose the question is, had some misfortune befallen her on that ski-slope when you took off, something really serious, would you be able to forgive yourself?

If the answer is yes, because she was acting like a dickhead, then she has a point doesn't she?

If you acknowledge that had a terrible event occurred when she was on a ski slope alone amongst strangers and you never saw her again, then you would never get past it or forgive yourself then you're moving a little closer to understanding why she can't move past it or forgive you now.

She trusted you to always have her back, you've proved you don't by your actions.

You're perhaps confusing her comparison to leaving a child as saying she wants you to treat her like a child. I believe she's using this comparison because she was talking about the unconditional love a parent has for their child. She thought you had that together. You don't. Now she realises that she "hates you a little bit" because she was deceived in this belief. There are conditions to your love for her, I suspect her beauty is one of them as you've mentioned that as an important factor in your bond.

That's a very thought-provoking post, thank you. As a counter point I'd still feel bad if we had parted on good terms and something bad happened.

I definitely did not anywhere say that her looks were an important factor in our bond. If her face was burned hideously tomorrow I would not love her any less.

OP posts:
WidthofaLine · 23/02/2023 22:00

*That's a very thought-provoking post, thank you. As a counter point I'd
still feel bad if we had parted on good terms and something bad
happened. *

And still you won't aknowledge that if something happened your leaving her could be a contributing factor in her not surviving, because that's the worst scenario, let's be honest.

I definitely did not anywhere say that her looks were an important factor
in our bond. If her face was burned hideously tomorrow I would not love
her any less.

Crikey your first thought is not aging and not finding her attractive, it is some awful hideously burnt face. 😱

Spottycarousel · 23/02/2023 22:05

WidthofaLine · 23/02/2023 22:00

*That's a very thought-provoking post, thank you. As a counter point I'd
still feel bad if we had parted on good terms and something bad
happened. *

And still you won't aknowledge that if something happened your leaving her could be a contributing factor in her not surviving, because that's the worst scenario, let's be honest.

I definitely did not anywhere say that her looks were an important factor
in our bond. If her face was burned hideously tomorrow I would not love
her any less.

Crikey your first thought is not aging and not finding her attractive, it is some awful hideously burnt face. 😱

I imagine he was making the point that even if the worst was to happen to her appearance it wouldn't change his love. Its a clearer statement of love than referring to aging which happens to us all. That's how I took it anyway.

Mummyof287 · 23/02/2023 22:16

This sounds abit like how I used to be in relationships tbh including with DH....little triggers would set me off and i would over react massively, storming off, shouting, intense emotional outbursts....once i run out of our flat in a state and ended up having to go down the road to my parents house in my pyjamas to get my spare key because DH did something to annoy me and i locked myself out but was too proud to back down and knock to be let in!
I was pretty hellish to DH when we first got together...kept him up at night ruminating over my troubles too.I am lucky he stuck it out and has stayed by me.I also had a controlling father and a passive mother.I have something hormonal going on I think....i've questioned PMDD before or maybe ADHD I don't know.
We did go for some couples therapy which helped somewhat and 10 years on I've calmed down with age and since becoming a parent... still have the odd outburst here and there but not very often.I can be hard work and have an awful attitude at the time of the month still (hence why I've questioned PMDD).

Does she apologise/show remorse/be nice to you in general though? Do you feel loved by her? As if not maybe you do need to reconsider things, especially if she won't get therapy.

greengriff · 23/02/2023 22:21

Mummyof287 · 23/02/2023 22:16

This sounds abit like how I used to be in relationships tbh including with DH....little triggers would set me off and i would over react massively, storming off, shouting, intense emotional outbursts....once i run out of our flat in a state and ended up having to go down the road to my parents house in my pyjamas to get my spare key because DH did something to annoy me and i locked myself out but was too proud to back down and knock to be let in!
I was pretty hellish to DH when we first got together...kept him up at night ruminating over my troubles too.I am lucky he stuck it out and has stayed by me.I also had a controlling father and a passive mother.I have something hormonal going on I think....i've questioned PMDD before or maybe ADHD I don't know.
We did go for some couples therapy which helped somewhat and 10 years on I've calmed down with age and since becoming a parent... still have the odd outburst here and there but not very often.I can be hard work and have an awful attitude at the time of the month still (hence why I've questioned PMDD).

Does she apologise/show remorse/be nice to you in general though? Do you feel loved by her? As if not maybe you do need to reconsider things, especially if she won't get therapy.

Apologies can be hard to come by, but generally she's lovely.

OP posts:
greengriff · 23/02/2023 22:26

WidthofaLine · 23/02/2023 22:00

*That's a very thought-provoking post, thank you. As a counter point I'd
still feel bad if we had parted on good terms and something bad
happened. *

And still you won't aknowledge that if something happened your leaving her could be a contributing factor in her not surviving, because that's the worst scenario, let's be honest.

I definitely did not anywhere say that her looks were an important factor
in our bond. If her face was burned hideously tomorrow I would not love
her any less.

Crikey your first thought is not aging and not finding her attractive, it is some awful hideously burnt face. 😱

But I could equally have left her (or her left me) on good terms and something bad had happened. 'What if...' questions make great thought experiments, but they are no way to live real life.

Why would I not find her attractive because she aged, when I will be aging at the same rate?

OP posts:
greengriff · 23/02/2023 22:27

Spottycarousel · 23/02/2023 22:05

I imagine he was making the point that even if the worst was to happen to her appearance it wouldn't change his love. Its a clearer statement of love than referring to aging which happens to us all. That's how I took it anyway.

That's absolutely how I meant it.

OP posts:
WidthofaLine · 23/02/2023 22:40

But I could equally have left her (or her left me) on good terms and
something bad had happened. 'What if...' questions make great thought
experiments, but they are no way to live real life.

They are how we live, as with children we keep them away from dangers, the more responsive we are to real or percieved dangers the greater their chances of survival.

Anything could have happened with or without you, but if you were there, there would be a greater chance of her being ok. Does it need spelling out how you could have assisted her in various situations, no? then you are not a very responsive person.

Your lack of empathy coupled with first thought responses worries me.

That's what's shes worring about that you are an unsafe partner who puts conditions on loving her unconditionally.
She's not just thinking about safe travel, she's thinking about the future.

Rheia1983 · 23/02/2023 23:51

The wife is also an unsafe partner to the husband, if not more so. Her actions, reactions and expectations are a mind fuck and has the husband feeling as if he has to walk on egg shells. He can't even bring up the topic of therapy without worrying that she will bite his head off.

That there are numerous women on this thread seeking to excuse or ignore the wife's actions and place the blame at the husband's feet shows that quite a few people still carry around toxic expectations of how relationships should work. That the woman should be coddled and infantilised no matter how independent she claims to be and the man should be the knigjt in shining armour ready at all times to provide and to keep the damsel safe from harm.

Who cares if the fair lady is rude, abrasive, unappreciative and tells the knight to fuck off. No, the knight must take it on the chin, stiffen his stiff upper lip even more and ski after said potty mouthed lady and prostrate himself on all icy patches to ensure the fair lady is all safe and sound. He may not feel sad, angry, disappointed or hurt at being told to fuck off. That's just being weak and unbecoming of a knight.

Also, just to see the what ifs from OP's point of view: What if, after the wife had gone off, something had happened to the OP (like a snowboarder barreling into OP while he was watching his wife ski off in her huff). Why was the wife not there to make sure OP would be safe and protected? Where was her unconditional love and showing responsibility for OP's well being? Is the unconditional love and safety to be one sided? Is the OP not worthy of being spoken to and treated with decency and courtesy by his wife?

NovelFarmer · 24/02/2023 01:32

WidthofaLine · 23/02/2023 14:32

@BadNomad

Then if he believes his wife is so unreasonable why has he not metered out his justice by leaving her.
If the balance of power so unequal do you not think op has the factual answers and is capable of inflicting the right punishment for her continually and unfairly being the explosive one, with op never doing anything wrong or having an opposing opinion.

He sounds quite opinionated to me, perfectly capable of holding a conversation or argument that presents his point of view, he's no cuckhold.
I don't believe this man meekly allows his wife to get her own way all the time, quite the opposite I think he would argue the toss forever.

What he is angry about is that his wife won't agree on the punishment he metered out to her that day, he was the judge, jury and executioner and his arguing is about his right to do so, factually and without feeling.

She may as well be married to a brick for all the empathy he has displayed.

Op I don't think you realise there are men out there that would NEVER do this to their wives, under no circumstances would they want their wives to feel afraid or vunerable, whether you agree with them being so empathic doesn't matter, the fact is there are men that care better than you, whether your wife chooses one of those to explore the world with, safely, is up to her.

100% agree with this.

Gremlinsateit · 24/02/2023 06:44

OP said he wanted insights with a view to staying together. He might have had different answers if he’d said he was miserable or frightened and wanted out, or if he’d given more details about this or other verbal attacks.

greengriff · 24/02/2023 08:38

WidthofaLine · 23/02/2023 22:40

But I could equally have left her (or her left me) on good terms and
something bad had happened. 'What if...' questions make great thought
experiments, but they are no way to live real life.

They are how we live, as with children we keep them away from dangers, the more responsive we are to real or percieved dangers the greater their chances of survival.

Anything could have happened with or without you, but if you were there, there would be a greater chance of her being ok. Does it need spelling out how you could have assisted her in various situations, no? then you are not a very responsive person.

Your lack of empathy coupled with first thought responses worries me.

That's what's shes worring about that you are an unsafe partner who puts conditions on loving her unconditionally.
She's not just thinking about safe travel, she's thinking about the future.

It's not about lack of empathy. Scenarios based on extremely unlikely situations are no way to generalise how to respond in the rest of your life. I occasionally send my son off to school with a flea in his ear because he's being an arsehole to his little brother. I'm in no doubt at that moment as he walks out of the door that he hates my guts, and I'm none too happy with him either. If he was killed on the way I'd be haunted for the rest of my life that we parted on bad terms. So should I never tell him off, just in case?

My wife is not only a capable skier, she is a person who emphasizes her independence and self-reliance in life. I would have no reason at all to think she'd be any more likely to end up in a bad spot than I would. In fact I'd say she was significantly less likely too as I'm a lot more reckless.

OP posts: