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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Desperately in need of help to understand my wife (and myself)!

373 replies

greengriff · 21/02/2023 12:14

I’m really in need of some advice. My relationship with my wife is currently at its lowest ebb. There are many reasons, but I wanted to focus on just one of them, an incident that took place on holiday last year. I want to talk about this incident firstly because my wife described this it as the ‘breaking point’ in our marriage and that it caused her to hate me a little bit, and secondly because I don’t understand why she blames me for it and I would really, really like to.

First a bit of what I believe is relevant background information: My wife grew up with a very domineering father. She chafed under his rules and couldn’t wait to get out of his house and rule her own life. Consequently, anything she even perceives as an attempt by me to tell her what to do is like a red rag to a bull and is guaranteed to lead to an instant confrontation. She views these kind of moments through the dynamic of sex (i.e. ‘you think because you’re the man that you should be in charge..’ etc.) whereas I view them as simply a clash of two quite dominant personalities. She very much emphasizes her independence as a grown woman from the need for a man and considers it patronising and reacts negatively if I ever have an opinion (apart from praise) regarding how she’s doing something. She is an extremely intelligent, strong-willed and capable person who, if she decides she’s going to do something, will work ceaselessly until she does. She’s definitely not one of life’s victims.

Anyway, to the point: We were on a skiing holiday last year. The slope at the time was very icy but pitch-wise it was nothing extreme. To give some perspective she’d skied steeper slopes many dozens (maybe even hundreds) of times before and there were at least a hundred other people on it of all levels. But it was indeed icy and unpleasant to ski and she was not definitely having fun, so - seeing that she was struggling - I offered to help. She shouted some abuse at me and skied off. Feeling thoroughly pssed off that an attempted act of kindness elicited such an unexpected response, I skied off in a different direction to do my own thing. When we met back at the hotel in the afternoon she told me that I’d abandoned her, leaving her scared and alone, ignored her calls, left her with no money and no idea how to get back to the hotel and that the whole thing was my fault. This obviously irritated the living sht out of me as I believed that I’d done nothing wrong and was in fact the wronged party.

This argument never really went away and we got stuck into it again last night, where some extra details were added that only increased my frustration and lack of understanding of her, and maybe even myself:

She said she needs a husband who’s there for her regardless of what she says. But for me it’s not what she says, it’s what she does. If she insults me and storms off am I supposed to go and plead with her to come back?

She then said that I would not have left a child in the same situation, to which I agreed, but said that she is a capable and responsible adult and therefore it’s different. She then said she wants the same kind of love and caring that I’d give a child and that she needs me to ‘be the man’ and ‘be her hero’ and be committed to her safety even when she’s acting like a twat.

And finally she said that she wants someone who would move a mountain for her even when she’d directly told them not to!

Thinking about this just makes my head ache! For 99.9% of the time in our relationship if I’d gone directly against her wishes or treated her like I would a child it would have led to an explosion that made Hiroshima look tame! Yet I’m supposed to do this – to ‘be the man’ and make her act against her own will – at certain times when she’s most angry and attacking? And not doing so is my fault and makes her hate me!?

What does this actually mean? That her ‘independent woman’ persona is not real? That it is real, right up until the moment that it isn’t, and I’m supposed to know when those moments are and switch role to the helpful patriarch? Something else?

If someone can shed some light on this please do as I’m really struggling. If I can’t solve this puzzle our relationship is likely to fail, and that’s the last thing I want.

Maybe it’s not her and there’s actually something wrong with me! If you think so, please tell me straight!

OP posts:
GoldDuster · 22/02/2023 14:18

greengriff · 22/02/2023 14:12

100%. Why on earth would I waste all this time if I wasn't? I've got plenty of things that need doing that I haven't done so that I can respond to this thread. As I said at the beginning, I'm pretty desperate.

If you can only filter for the positive then you have wasted your own time. You have had lots of constructive replies that suggest how you had a part to play and how you might be able to move forward.

For some reason they are not registering with you.

If you are looking for confirmation that your marriage is a write off, and it's entirely her fault then here you go.

greengriff · 22/02/2023 14:22

AdamRyan · 22/02/2023 14:14

My opinion is that skiing off in a different direction to someone downslope after an argument is petty as you know they can't follow you. This is an opinion not a fact though.

The rest of it is all correct no?

I think your story is "true" but I suspect you were unhelpful to her, she responded angrily and you skied off in a strop to punish her, knowing she wouldn't be able to catch you up. No "facts" you've presented suggest this is incorrect.

And the fact you can't even engage because you think I'm saying you are "factually wrong" so you're going to ignore it, is probably indicative of exactly the problem your wife is having.

Essentially "you are wrong so I'm not listening" when she's trying to talk to you.

None of it is correct:

I did not ski off, she did. The bits where pistes cross is decided by the natural terrain and might well be steep and/or icy. You can ski off in a different direction in lots of places that are not crossing or a lift. Ski slopes are not 'designed' at all, let alone designed to be safe.

OP posts:
greengriff · 22/02/2023 14:24

GoldDuster · 22/02/2023 14:18

If you can only filter for the positive then you have wasted your own time. You have had lots of constructive replies that suggest how you had a part to play and how you might be able to move forward.

For some reason they are not registering with you.

If you are looking for confirmation that your marriage is a write off, and it's entirely her fault then here you go.

Yes I have indeed and I'm very grateful, but most of the powerful insights posted have been about her behaviour not mine.

OP posts:
15feb · 22/02/2023 14:26

Can someone explain how skiing works, why is everyone fixated on the ski slope dimensions? If the OP is accurate, the wife didn't talk about the slopes, but focused on how scared she was getting back to the hotel without money and potentially getting lost herself... Do you have to ski back to the hotel or what?

She caught the same free bus OP took, plus had a credit card, and as for directions she's a woman (plus with a phone GPS) not a child, so I think maybe there's another trigger apart from physical safety here, worth exploring

15feb · 22/02/2023 14:29

15feb · 22/02/2023 14:03

I think the bigger issue here is mind games. How are you supposed to know when she wants you to be the big man hero, and when she'll interpret it as patronising and misogynistic (which she did your offer to help, and at other times)?

I think maybe what you can both do is agree on boundaries and clear communication. It's not romantic but it works when people are a mess of contradictions.

So e.g. discuss nicely and equally together:

  • First, guidelines around civility if possible, if you're both always shouting at each other or arguing viciously
  • Was the issue here actually physical safety or something more? Be clear about that
  • Decide what constitutes physical danger. Do you need her to communicate that she feels unsafe to you in that situation? Or is there any other "code" language you can use for that? What are some examples of unsafe situations? Should you just assume most situations are dangerous for her?
  • Decide whether physical safety is unconditional. Decide: will you be there for her no matter how rude she gets, no matter whether she leaves the scene, and whether she tells you to go away? (Note: despite what PPs say, not an obligation in my view, no human is entitled to that)
  • Or will you be there for her as long as she doesn't EXPLICITLY tell you to go away?
  • Or in such situations, should you respect her IMPLIED body language for you to go when she turns away?
  • On your end, are you someone who needs space when hurt? Do you need to tell her "I need space" or will there be an implied promise to come back and regroup? Within how long, or is it even necessary?
  • Etc

A lot of questions above are about her needs and your boundaries – tbf she seems like the mind game player in the relationship – but also good to consider the reverse so it feels / is more equal

And I don't know how skiing works but if you did deliberately go off course in response to her shouting at you, then it was a bit of a temper tantrum of yourself, was it to prove a point or because you needed space to calm down? (Fwiw I wouldn't want to stick on the same course as him if my husband or bf shouted at me too.)

Is there a better way to handle that, what's the communication protocol for such situations in future (not that it should normalise / legitimise either of you shouting abuse at each other) – all things you can discuss together

If you 2 are unable to discuss all of the above together, again, I recommend couple's counselling or DBT

DiscontinuedModelHusband · 22/02/2023 14:30

OP, I'm another that thinks that by going off your own way (albeit after she initially left you) that you did exacerbate the issue.

You knew she was in an emotionally heightened state, and that this does affect people's judgement.

You also know that anyone can fall, even on an "easy" ski route - more so, if they're not necessarily concentrating as much as they might normally.

The mature/considerate thing to do would have been to follow on your agreed route, even if you maintained some distance. The time/space might have given her the opportunity to consider her actions, and things might have calmed by the time you reached the bottom.

But you didn't.

I think the way to address this, is to acknowledge that your course of action was not considerate. That you could have behaved differently.

But it would also be perfectly understandable to explain why you struggled to interpret what she needed from you at that point, given she has presumably never mentioned this in the past.

You can reassure her that in future you would behave differently in a similar situation - given you now know better what her expectations of you are.

HOWEVER -

while many PPs have said it is good to be the bigger person, it is not good to ALWAYS have to be the bigger person. so it is important that she also acknowledges her own responsibility for situations like this in the future.

i can speak from bitter personal experience, that always being the flexible/reconciling one is not sustainable over the long term.

GoldDuster · 22/02/2023 14:31

You went to lengths to describe her failings, her background, her dysfunctional relationship with her father... very little about you, your background, other than you are very much in love with her and become irrationally incensed if you feel someone is being rude to you, which I don't think is unrelated to the problem in hand.

With a one sided opener, you've had majority one sided responses but also some clear advice about how to move forward, which you seem to not be able to see.

This is Mumsnet. It's not therapy. Read the responses again with an open mind if you can, and try not to look to back up the theory that you're right, she's wrong and if you can just get proof of this you'll be vindicated.

Mumuser124 · 22/02/2023 14:34

@greengriff

Basically, you’re horrid for have consequences for your wife speaking to you like crap when you have offered to do something nice.

you should know better than to have boundaries and to have let her storm off down the slope.

hamstersarse · 22/02/2023 14:34

I did not ski off, she did

OMG! The point which you have acknowledged previously but now seem to be changing is that you saw the direction in which she skied, and decided not to follow her (junction bla bla bla) and also not to tell her that you had decided not to follow her, hence the description one can make of "leaving her". People on here are saying you "left her", she said you "left her" but you seem not to be able to admit you 'left her'?

You literally made a conscious choice to not go down the same ski slope in the same direction as her. You decided to leave her. Own it!

I also think you are on a wind up now btw. This is toddler territory.

And I'm annoyed I am still replying 😂

greengriff · 22/02/2023 14:34

DiscontinuedModelHusband · 22/02/2023 14:30

OP, I'm another that thinks that by going off your own way (albeit after she initially left you) that you did exacerbate the issue.

You knew she was in an emotionally heightened state, and that this does affect people's judgement.

You also know that anyone can fall, even on an "easy" ski route - more so, if they're not necessarily concentrating as much as they might normally.

The mature/considerate thing to do would have been to follow on your agreed route, even if you maintained some distance. The time/space might have given her the opportunity to consider her actions, and things might have calmed by the time you reached the bottom.

But you didn't.

I think the way to address this, is to acknowledge that your course of action was not considerate. That you could have behaved differently.

But it would also be perfectly understandable to explain why you struggled to interpret what she needed from you at that point, given she has presumably never mentioned this in the past.

You can reassure her that in future you would behave differently in a similar situation - given you now know better what her expectations of you are.

HOWEVER -

while many PPs have said it is good to be the bigger person, it is not good to ALWAYS have to be the bigger person. so it is important that she also acknowledges her own responsibility for situations like this in the future.

i can speak from bitter personal experience, that always being the flexible/reconciling one is not sustainable over the long term.

Yes I agree with all of that.

OP posts:
greengriff · 22/02/2023 14:38

GoldDuster · 22/02/2023 14:31

You went to lengths to describe her failings, her background, her dysfunctional relationship with her father... very little about you, your background, other than you are very much in love with her and become irrationally incensed if you feel someone is being rude to you, which I don't think is unrelated to the problem in hand.

With a one sided opener, you've had majority one sided responses but also some clear advice about how to move forward, which you seem to not be able to see.

This is Mumsnet. It's not therapy. Read the responses again with an open mind if you can, and try not to look to back up the theory that you're right, she's wrong and if you can just get proof of this you'll be vindicated.

Yes, but I'm probably not the best person to accurately describe myself. I was raised in a loving family, no childhood trauma. I'm lazy and short-tempered but also kind and generous. It would take someone who knows me well to confirm/deny the accuracy of that and fill in the gaps.

OP posts:
greengriff · 22/02/2023 14:41

hamstersarse · 22/02/2023 14:34

I did not ski off, she did

OMG! The point which you have acknowledged previously but now seem to be changing is that you saw the direction in which she skied, and decided not to follow her (junction bla bla bla) and also not to tell her that you had decided not to follow her, hence the description one can make of "leaving her". People on here are saying you "left her", she said you "left her" but you seem not to be able to admit you 'left her'?

You literally made a conscious choice to not go down the same ski slope in the same direction as her. You decided to leave her. Own it!

I also think you are on a wind up now btw. This is toddler territory.

And I'm annoyed I am still replying 😂

Maybe I'm just dumb but it seems crystal clear to me that deciding not to follow her after she skied off is not in any way the same thing as leaving her. In fact it's her leaving me.

OP posts:
hamstersarse · 22/02/2023 14:46

It is crystal clear that you were in a strop and deliberately broke the normal ski etiquette of not following her.

You need to own your strop (whether you were entitled to be in a strop or not) if you really want to move forward. It seems you are in a competition about who is wrongest - there lies divorce!

greengriff · 22/02/2023 14:50

hamstersarse · 22/02/2023 14:46

It is crystal clear that you were in a strop and deliberately broke the normal ski etiquette of not following her.

You need to own your strop (whether you were entitled to be in a strop or not) if you really want to move forward. It seems you are in a competition about who is wrongest - there lies divorce!

Yes indeed that's all correct.

OP posts:
SoCunningYouCanStickATailOnItAndCallItAFox · 22/02/2023 14:50

greengriff · 22/02/2023 14:24

Yes I have indeed and I'm very grateful, but most of the powerful insights posted have been about her behaviour not mine.

Loads of replies have addressed your side of things as well as hers. But 'Powerful insights' can't realistically be found based on crumbs of information, you said barely anything about your own background.

You don't seem to be open to feedback on the part you might have played anyway.

SoCunningYouCanStickATailOnItAndCallItAFox · 22/02/2023 14:51

Cross post.

BadNomad · 22/02/2023 14:51

Maybe I'm just dumb but it seems crystal clear to me that deciding not to follow her after she skied off is not in any way the same thing as leaving her. In fact it's her leaving me.

I think the way they're seeing it is that the route she took is the route you both planned to take. So after snapping at you, she continued on that planned route, but you decided to leave for a different route.

Like say you were both walking to Costa for a coffee, stopped to bicker for a moment, then she carried on walking towards Costa, but you though "fuck this", walked off in a different direction, and ignored her trying to contact you.

greengriff · 22/02/2023 14:53

BadNomad · 22/02/2023 14:51

Maybe I'm just dumb but it seems crystal clear to me that deciding not to follow her after she skied off is not in any way the same thing as leaving her. In fact it's her leaving me.

I think the way they're seeing it is that the route she took is the route you both planned to take. So after snapping at you, she continued on that planned route, but you decided to leave for a different route.

Like say you were both walking to Costa for a coffee, stopped to bicker for a moment, then she carried on walking towards Costa, but you though "fuck this", walked off in a different direction, and ignored her trying to contact you.

Yes that's fair enough.

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 22/02/2023 14:54

If you skied down a different piste to her, or off piste, when she was downhill on the piste you both started on, then you left her.

As hamster said, she had no option to rejoin you once that had happened. You were separated.

Why can't you acknowledge this? She skied off, away from you but on the same piste. You would have been able to meet at the bottom which presumably was what she was expecting.

You were upthread and in response to her skiing off, you then changed onto a different piste without telling her. She couldn't contact you. No way for her to meet up with you.

Can you not see how that could cause her to be worried and scared for both of you, given that skiing is a dangerous sport?

greengriff · 22/02/2023 15:04

AdamRyan · 22/02/2023 14:54

If you skied down a different piste to her, or off piste, when she was downhill on the piste you both started on, then you left her.

As hamster said, she had no option to rejoin you once that had happened. You were separated.

Why can't you acknowledge this? She skied off, away from you but on the same piste. You would have been able to meet at the bottom which presumably was what she was expecting.

You were upthread and in response to her skiing off, you then changed onto a different piste without telling her. She couldn't contact you. No way for her to meet up with you.

Can you not see how that could cause her to be worried and scared for both of you, given that skiing is a dangerous sport?

No I did ski to the bottom of the run we were on. She says I overtook her at one point but I didn't see her. This is perfectly plausible as the piste was very wide and had hundreds of people on it. But you're quite right that the separation could cause her to be worried.

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 22/02/2023 15:06

So when you said you "changed direction" what did you mean?

AdamRyan · 22/02/2023 15:07

And why did you get so hung up on all the chat about crossing pistes if you knew you'd skied to the bottom of the run you were on?
Honestly this makes very little sense....

greengriff · 22/02/2023 15:08

AdamRyan · 22/02/2023 15:06

So when you said you "changed direction" what did you mean?

I mean I went off in a different direction to her!

OP posts:
BadNomad · 22/02/2023 15:08

You're going to have to draw us a diagram of the ski run(s) with your wife's and your own directions on it.

greengriff · 22/02/2023 15:09

AdamRyan · 22/02/2023 15:07

And why did you get so hung up on all the chat about crossing pistes if you knew you'd skied to the bottom of the run you were on?
Honestly this makes very little sense....

Because people (you?) were using that claim about crossings to try and cast doubt on what I was saying.

OP posts: