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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Desperately in need of help to understand my wife (and myself)!

373 replies

greengriff · 21/02/2023 12:14

I’m really in need of some advice. My relationship with my wife is currently at its lowest ebb. There are many reasons, but I wanted to focus on just one of them, an incident that took place on holiday last year. I want to talk about this incident firstly because my wife described this it as the ‘breaking point’ in our marriage and that it caused her to hate me a little bit, and secondly because I don’t understand why she blames me for it and I would really, really like to.

First a bit of what I believe is relevant background information: My wife grew up with a very domineering father. She chafed under his rules and couldn’t wait to get out of his house and rule her own life. Consequently, anything she even perceives as an attempt by me to tell her what to do is like a red rag to a bull and is guaranteed to lead to an instant confrontation. She views these kind of moments through the dynamic of sex (i.e. ‘you think because you’re the man that you should be in charge..’ etc.) whereas I view them as simply a clash of two quite dominant personalities. She very much emphasizes her independence as a grown woman from the need for a man and considers it patronising and reacts negatively if I ever have an opinion (apart from praise) regarding how she’s doing something. She is an extremely intelligent, strong-willed and capable person who, if she decides she’s going to do something, will work ceaselessly until she does. She’s definitely not one of life’s victims.

Anyway, to the point: We were on a skiing holiday last year. The slope at the time was very icy but pitch-wise it was nothing extreme. To give some perspective she’d skied steeper slopes many dozens (maybe even hundreds) of times before and there were at least a hundred other people on it of all levels. But it was indeed icy and unpleasant to ski and she was not definitely having fun, so - seeing that she was struggling - I offered to help. She shouted some abuse at me and skied off. Feeling thoroughly pssed off that an attempted act of kindness elicited such an unexpected response, I skied off in a different direction to do my own thing. When we met back at the hotel in the afternoon she told me that I’d abandoned her, leaving her scared and alone, ignored her calls, left her with no money and no idea how to get back to the hotel and that the whole thing was my fault. This obviously irritated the living sht out of me as I believed that I’d done nothing wrong and was in fact the wronged party.

This argument never really went away and we got stuck into it again last night, where some extra details were added that only increased my frustration and lack of understanding of her, and maybe even myself:

She said she needs a husband who’s there for her regardless of what she says. But for me it’s not what she says, it’s what she does. If she insults me and storms off am I supposed to go and plead with her to come back?

She then said that I would not have left a child in the same situation, to which I agreed, but said that she is a capable and responsible adult and therefore it’s different. She then said she wants the same kind of love and caring that I’d give a child and that she needs me to ‘be the man’ and ‘be her hero’ and be committed to her safety even when she’s acting like a twat.

And finally she said that she wants someone who would move a mountain for her even when she’d directly told them not to!

Thinking about this just makes my head ache! For 99.9% of the time in our relationship if I’d gone directly against her wishes or treated her like I would a child it would have led to an explosion that made Hiroshima look tame! Yet I’m supposed to do this – to ‘be the man’ and make her act against her own will – at certain times when she’s most angry and attacking? And not doing so is my fault and makes her hate me!?

What does this actually mean? That her ‘independent woman’ persona is not real? That it is real, right up until the moment that it isn’t, and I’m supposed to know when those moments are and switch role to the helpful patriarch? Something else?

If someone can shed some light on this please do as I’m really struggling. If I can’t solve this puzzle our relationship is likely to fail, and that’s the last thing I want.

Maybe it’s not her and there’s actually something wrong with me! If you think so, please tell me straight!

OP posts:
greengriff · 22/02/2023 15:09

BadNomad · 22/02/2023 15:08

You're going to have to draw us a diagram of the ski run(s) with your wife's and your own directions on it.

Dear god no!😂

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 22/02/2023 15:17

greengriff · 22/02/2023 15:09

Because people (you?) were using that claim about crossings to try and cast doubt on what I was saying.

No. I was trying to understand what had happened. When you said you went off in a different direction I assumed down a different piste or off piste.

Everyone moves around loads on a piste and takes a different path down so I wouldn't describe skiing separately down the same piste as skiing off/skiing in a different direction.

I couldn't understand why your wife would be stressed at a point where the pistes diverge. But it's far clearer if by "different direction" you just meant a slightly different oath down the same piste.

You are taking everything very literally and also assuming the worst intent in posters that dont immediately agree with you.

greengriff · 22/02/2023 15:24

AdamRyan · 22/02/2023 15:17

No. I was trying to understand what had happened. When you said you went off in a different direction I assumed down a different piste or off piste.

Everyone moves around loads on a piste and takes a different path down so I wouldn't describe skiing separately down the same piste as skiing off/skiing in a different direction.

I couldn't understand why your wife would be stressed at a point where the pistes diverge. But it's far clearer if by "different direction" you just meant a slightly different oath down the same piste.

You are taking everything very literally and also assuming the worst intent in posters that dont immediately agree with you.

When people write that what I've claimed is 'suspicious' I feel the need to clarify. That doesn't seem unreasonable.

OP posts:
ComeTheFckOnBridget · 22/02/2023 15:43

@greengriff don't worry, some people only come to MN to be suspicious 😆

mathanxiety · 22/02/2023 15:57

greengriff · 22/02/2023 14:08

No, so if anyone has any great insights into my behaviour then I'd be happy to hear them.

1 You're not very open to insights into your behaviour.
2 You are keen to establish whose facts are the right facts.
3 You think this makes a difference.
4 Why is this? In the year that has elapsed since the incident, has your wife given you any reason to believe that facts relating to the skiing have any bearing on how she feels?

hamstersarse · 22/02/2023 16:08

For someone who 'wants to establish the facts' your facts are very sketchy

AdamRyan · 22/02/2023 16:11

I wrote this:
I tend to be suspicious of posts that choose one incident to illustrate a pattern of behaviour and then give no details.

What was the "help"? What was the "abuse"? Why didn't op answer his phone? What had they previously arranged about the hotel/bus?

You still haven't answered the question.

I'm not suspicious about what you have claimed.
I'm suspicious about your motivation for the thread. You say it's to understand but it seems to be so you can prove you are right.

greengriff · 22/02/2023 16:37

AdamRyan · 22/02/2023 16:11

I wrote this:
I tend to be suspicious of posts that choose one incident to illustrate a pattern of behaviour and then give no details.

What was the "help"? What was the "abuse"? Why didn't op answer his phone? What had they previously arranged about the hotel/bus?

You still haven't answered the question.

I'm not suspicious about what you have claimed.
I'm suspicious about your motivation for the thread. You say it's to understand but it seems to be so you can prove you are right.

Prove to who though? Nobody here knows me or my wife, so what's the point of seeking validation from anonymous strangers? It would obviously be nice if everyone said 'oh yes, you're right' but that's not what I came here for because being right won't help my marriage, whereas understanding why my wife thinks I'm not right might well do. I've given plenty of details - certainly enough for people to write some very useful replies. I've had a lot of food for thought.

OP posts:
greengriff · 22/02/2023 16:41

mathanxiety · 22/02/2023 15:57

1 You're not very open to insights into your behaviour.
2 You are keen to establish whose facts are the right facts.
3 You think this makes a difference.
4 Why is this? In the year that has elapsed since the incident, has your wife given you any reason to believe that facts relating to the skiing have any bearing on how she feels?

Well yes, because her perception of the facts about what happened are what she's deriving her feelings from!

I'm extremely interested insights about my behaviour. I need to understand the 'why' for both of our reactions in order to have a chance of improving.

OP posts:
GoldDuster · 22/02/2023 16:43

understanding why my wife thinks I'm not right

this still presumes that you're right, and there's something wrong with your wife because she can't see that's the case.

How about understanding why you can't communicate effectively and being willing to accept you are part of the issue.

greengriff · 22/02/2023 16:48

GoldDuster · 22/02/2023 16:43

understanding why my wife thinks I'm not right

this still presumes that you're right, and there's something wrong with your wife because she can't see that's the case.

How about understanding why you can't communicate effectively and being willing to accept you are part of the issue.

I definitely accept that!!!!

OP posts:
OneMoreCookieMonster · 22/02/2023 17:06

@greengriff you genuinely seem like one of the good ones put there and your wife is lucky to have you.

I don't understand why all the pp are obsessed with your ski holiday. You were clearly using it as a demonstration of what has been going on in your relationship and where you wife is struggling. Honestly, ppl lay off the op and actually try to give some decent advice.

Personally, I think she is sending very mixed signals and that will over time, understandably fuck with your mind. I don't think she's intentionally playing mind games, I think she doesn't know what she actually wants from you herself.

In your place I would be asking myself some very simple questions and go from there.
What does she actually want vs. Need?
What do you want vs. Need?
Can you both agree to put this behind you and reestablish boundaries?
Does she want to drop this?
Can you move on?
What can you change immediately to get results?
Do you feel that you need to change or moderate your behaviour, expectations etc?

Once you have those, I'd sit down and talk to her frankly and openly. Make sure it's also not all about her. You need to put out there what it is that you need to move forward and away from this situation, otherwise it will keep coming back and resentments will build.

Good luck

9outof10cats · 22/02/2023 17:17

Notmyyearthisyear · 21/02/2023 21:35

And setting those boundaries will likely trigger the response in the wife… it doesn’t work like that with a person who has developed unhealthy coping mechanisms to deal with traumatic experiences.
If someone has a broken arm, you can’t heal it by confidently telling them that you are not prepared to tolerate their broken arm from this point onwards…

I'm afraid I have to disagree. As a survivor of childhood trauma, I developed deep-seated emotional issues that sabotaged many of my relationships.

The first step to recovery is to recognise you have a problem, and it does not sound like the OP's wife has.

Walking on eggshells will only validate the behaviour of the person prone to emotional outbursts.

It's important to have open and honest conversations about how both partners feel and to work towards finding a solution for both parties.

WidthofaLine · 22/02/2023 17:31

You metered out your own justice that day.

The mitigating circimstances you present do not negate the dangers that could have occured. Regardless of how you think she ought to be able to put this behind her and believe you are still an inherantly kind and protective partner, I'm affraid that ship has sailed.

WidthofaLine · 22/02/2023 17:55

Your refusal to understand her fear of being abandonned has exaserbated this further, if the actual act of cutting dead your feelings on the day wasn't bad enough you are incapable of seeing how this affected her,her confusion, her fears, her embarrassment, her dissapointment since that trip.

She realises there is an underlying lack of empathy in you, you don't even understand that yourself, you are still trying to cling onto reason and why you acted as you did. In certain situations in life, reason has to take a back seat, if an envioroment is dangerous or unknown then you help one another and protect, you did not.

She has evaluated your usefullness now to her future survival in life and assesed that you are pointless to have by her side. She may as well be on her own and I don't disagree with her, I doubt anyone else in her life would have done that, on that day on the ski slopes, friend, family or stranger.

In her eyes you are not only useless you are an unsafe even dangerous partner. The fact you don't understand this makes you even more un safe.

Both your personalities and innabilities to communicate will lead to further clashes, she recognises this so her refusal to go and explore the world is a completely understandable reaction.
You cannot guarentee their will be no further silly spats and this could lead her to be left, abandonned in future trips, it would be a natural assumption on her behalf.

Beccarecca · 22/02/2023 18:09

I haven't read all the comments (just the first few suggesting you leave) but I thought I may be able to offer some insight. I think you need to apologise for leaving her and heading back to the hotel but explain that you did so because you were frustrated and she made it clear she didn't want your help. I can relate to "being" a strong independent woman (or trying to) but still wanting someone to care for me. Recently, due to a health condition most of my independence has been taken away and I'm often dependent on help from my husband for everyday tasks. He says I need to ask when I need help but I find it really difficult to say "I need help" if he stands by while I do it myself it upsets me but from his point of view he doesn't want to treat me like I'm not capable and interfere unless I explicitly ask him to. I get frustrated that he hasn't helped me and stroppy and he can't do right for doing wrong! I don't know if this perhaps resonates with your situation a little. I feel like your wife isn't quite as strong as independent as she likes to make out. She craves affection and your support. But perhaps admitting that is hard when she's tried for so long to convince herself she can go it alone. I think you both need to have an open and honest conversation about what she really needs from you and she needs to understand that you can't read her mind! I don't know if this was useful at all but I hope so.

greengriff · 22/02/2023 18:09

WidthofaLine · 22/02/2023 17:55

Your refusal to understand her fear of being abandonned has exaserbated this further, if the actual act of cutting dead your feelings on the day wasn't bad enough you are incapable of seeing how this affected her,her confusion, her fears, her embarrassment, her dissapointment since that trip.

She realises there is an underlying lack of empathy in you, you don't even understand that yourself, you are still trying to cling onto reason and why you acted as you did. In certain situations in life, reason has to take a back seat, if an envioroment is dangerous or unknown then you help one another and protect, you did not.

She has evaluated your usefullness now to her future survival in life and assesed that you are pointless to have by her side. She may as well be on her own and I don't disagree with her, I doubt anyone else in her life would have done that, on that day on the ski slopes, friend, family or stranger.

In her eyes you are not only useless you are an unsafe even dangerous partner. The fact you don't understand this makes you even more un safe.

Both your personalities and innabilities to communicate will lead to further clashes, she recognises this so her refusal to go and explore the world is a completely understandable reaction.
You cannot guarentee their will be no further silly spats and this could lead her to be left, abandonned in future trips, it would be a natural assumption on her behalf.

It's not that I refused to understand, it's that I didn't understand because it was not congruent with how she presented herself to me and the world in daily life. Thanks to some excellent posts on here I now do understand.

OP posts:
greengriff · 22/02/2023 18:10

Beccarecca · 22/02/2023 18:09

I haven't read all the comments (just the first few suggesting you leave) but I thought I may be able to offer some insight. I think you need to apologise for leaving her and heading back to the hotel but explain that you did so because you were frustrated and she made it clear she didn't want your help. I can relate to "being" a strong independent woman (or trying to) but still wanting someone to care for me. Recently, due to a health condition most of my independence has been taken away and I'm often dependent on help from my husband for everyday tasks. He says I need to ask when I need help but I find it really difficult to say "I need help" if he stands by while I do it myself it upsets me but from his point of view he doesn't want to treat me like I'm not capable and interfere unless I explicitly ask him to. I get frustrated that he hasn't helped me and stroppy and he can't do right for doing wrong! I don't know if this perhaps resonates with your situation a little. I feel like your wife isn't quite as strong as independent as she likes to make out. She craves affection and your support. But perhaps admitting that is hard when she's tried for so long to convince herself she can go it alone. I think you both need to have an open and honest conversation about what she really needs from you and she needs to understand that you can't read her mind! I don't know if this was useful at all but I hope so.

Yes indeed it was useful, thank you.

OP posts:
greengriff · 22/02/2023 18:14

OneMoreCookieMonster · 22/02/2023 17:06

@greengriff you genuinely seem like one of the good ones put there and your wife is lucky to have you.

I don't understand why all the pp are obsessed with your ski holiday. You were clearly using it as a demonstration of what has been going on in your relationship and where you wife is struggling. Honestly, ppl lay off the op and actually try to give some decent advice.

Personally, I think she is sending very mixed signals and that will over time, understandably fuck with your mind. I don't think she's intentionally playing mind games, I think she doesn't know what she actually wants from you herself.

In your place I would be asking myself some very simple questions and go from there.
What does she actually want vs. Need?
What do you want vs. Need?
Can you both agree to put this behind you and reestablish boundaries?
Does she want to drop this?
Can you move on?
What can you change immediately to get results?
Do you feel that you need to change or moderate your behaviour, expectations etc?

Once you have those, I'd sit down and talk to her frankly and openly. Make sure it's also not all about her. You need to put out there what it is that you need to move forward and away from this situation, otherwise it will keep coming back and resentments will build.

Good luck

Thanks. Those are definitely questions that need asking. I'm not sure how easy some of them will be to answer though - e.g. I know what I want but I might not even know what I need, or what I think I need might not be what I actually need, etc.

OP posts:
Rheia1983 · 22/02/2023 18:19

@greengriff Mate, you're being piled on here because you're a man. Do not engage with those giving you the third degree and going on about your failings. All you're doing is egging them on.

From what you describe, your wife has issues stemming from childhood. She seems to be acting out relationship patterns that were cemented long before you were on the scene. You, in turn, may also be acting out patterns of relating you learned from a young age. Romantic relationships have a tendency of triggering our deepest wounds in both partners and we can out our past hurt and pain within the relationship since we are also at our most vulnerable in them. Until our pain and vulnerabilities are seen, acknowledged and accepted by both partners, we can have unhealthy and non-constructive ways of relating with each other at least some of the time.

If you'd like to understand what is going on within yourself and what vulnerabilities your wife's actions are triggering in you, find a good therapist and hash it out with honesty and a genuine will to understand, and if necessary, change. Maybe you'll gain some clarity on your relating patterns and also find some insight on how your way of relating affects your relationship. You may also learn some techniques in engaging with your wife in a constructive manner.

As for your wife, until she sees that she needs to deal with her shit and cannot externalize her own issues on to you, it is unlikely that the both of you will be able to have a secure and harmonious relationship.

Honestly, save the time and frustration you are expending on Mumsnet engaging with the vipers and spend that time researching good therapists and finding good books on communication and modelling healthy relationship behaviours instead. I promise that that would be a more productive use of your time🙂

greengriff · 22/02/2023 18:23

Rheia1983 · 22/02/2023 18:19

@greengriff Mate, you're being piled on here because you're a man. Do not engage with those giving you the third degree and going on about your failings. All you're doing is egging them on.

From what you describe, your wife has issues stemming from childhood. She seems to be acting out relationship patterns that were cemented long before you were on the scene. You, in turn, may also be acting out patterns of relating you learned from a young age. Romantic relationships have a tendency of triggering our deepest wounds in both partners and we can out our past hurt and pain within the relationship since we are also at our most vulnerable in them. Until our pain and vulnerabilities are seen, acknowledged and accepted by both partners, we can have unhealthy and non-constructive ways of relating with each other at least some of the time.

If you'd like to understand what is going on within yourself and what vulnerabilities your wife's actions are triggering in you, find a good therapist and hash it out with honesty and a genuine will to understand, and if necessary, change. Maybe you'll gain some clarity on your relating patterns and also find some insight on how your way of relating affects your relationship. You may also learn some techniques in engaging with your wife in a constructive manner.

As for your wife, until she sees that she needs to deal with her shit and cannot externalize her own issues on to you, it is unlikely that the both of you will be able to have a secure and harmonious relationship.

Honestly, save the time and frustration you are expending on Mumsnet engaging with the vipers and spend that time researching good therapists and finding good books on communication and modelling healthy relationship behaviours instead. I promise that that would be a more productive use of your time🙂

Thanks for the support. I can take what's being thrown at me, and so far it's been well worth it I think, as I've been presented with insights that I would have been very unlikely to come up with by myself. Whether the good stuff will continue I cannot tell!!!! I will follow your advice regarding therapy though. I'm definitely beginning to think it would be worth the time and money.

OP posts:
OneMoreCookieMonster · 22/02/2023 18:33

@greengriff I think that answering those questions is part of the journey you both should be taking as a couple. Helping one and other discover the answers and working on way forward with your relationship. It's about adapting and growing together to overcome this.

If along the way either of you discovers that it isn't going to work because of whatever reason. At least, you both will know that you've genuinely tried for each other and the relationship.

2pence · 22/02/2023 18:41

My husband is my person and I his. We are best friends.

What this means is that we can both behave like utter dickheads because he knows me inside out and vice versa.

If my person took themselves off and abandoned me when I was being a dickhead then I too would question whether he really was my person.

Likewise when he's being a dickhead, I tolerate it to a point, then we have a row, a mutual sulk and finally just get on with it again safe in the knowledge that we are still each other's person, nothing's changed.

I suspect something's changed and your wife doesn't view you in the same way anymore.

This ramble isn't likely to solve anything, it's just providing a perspective to perhaps help you understand where your wife's thinking might be. It can be a bit of a shock when you realise someone's not who you thought they were.

I do hope you both get past this and become each other's person again. Counselling sounds like a good place to start.

macaronicheese123 · 22/02/2023 19:14

CDiamond · 21/02/2023 22:28

I am not sure there are lots of emotionally stable beautiful people out there.

@CDiamond actually, you may be right!

LadyLapsang · 22/02/2023 19:17

I have two questions:
Who chose the icy route, was it mutual? Were the conditions unexpected?
You were asked upthread, whether you both skied independently and you replied that you sometimes stayed out on the slope after your wife went in, but would she have gone skiing on her own on that particular route in those conditions?
It does sound to me like you abandoned her knowing she was scared and some of your replies sound pretty disingenuous. I understand where your wife is coming from on this matter.