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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Desperately in need of help to understand my wife (and myself)!

373 replies

greengriff · 21/02/2023 12:14

I’m really in need of some advice. My relationship with my wife is currently at its lowest ebb. There are many reasons, but I wanted to focus on just one of them, an incident that took place on holiday last year. I want to talk about this incident firstly because my wife described this it as the ‘breaking point’ in our marriage and that it caused her to hate me a little bit, and secondly because I don’t understand why she blames me for it and I would really, really like to.

First a bit of what I believe is relevant background information: My wife grew up with a very domineering father. She chafed under his rules and couldn’t wait to get out of his house and rule her own life. Consequently, anything she even perceives as an attempt by me to tell her what to do is like a red rag to a bull and is guaranteed to lead to an instant confrontation. She views these kind of moments through the dynamic of sex (i.e. ‘you think because you’re the man that you should be in charge..’ etc.) whereas I view them as simply a clash of two quite dominant personalities. She very much emphasizes her independence as a grown woman from the need for a man and considers it patronising and reacts negatively if I ever have an opinion (apart from praise) regarding how she’s doing something. She is an extremely intelligent, strong-willed and capable person who, if she decides she’s going to do something, will work ceaselessly until she does. She’s definitely not one of life’s victims.

Anyway, to the point: We were on a skiing holiday last year. The slope at the time was very icy but pitch-wise it was nothing extreme. To give some perspective she’d skied steeper slopes many dozens (maybe even hundreds) of times before and there were at least a hundred other people on it of all levels. But it was indeed icy and unpleasant to ski and she was not definitely having fun, so - seeing that she was struggling - I offered to help. She shouted some abuse at me and skied off. Feeling thoroughly pssed off that an attempted act of kindness elicited such an unexpected response, I skied off in a different direction to do my own thing. When we met back at the hotel in the afternoon she told me that I’d abandoned her, leaving her scared and alone, ignored her calls, left her with no money and no idea how to get back to the hotel and that the whole thing was my fault. This obviously irritated the living sht out of me as I believed that I’d done nothing wrong and was in fact the wronged party.

This argument never really went away and we got stuck into it again last night, where some extra details were added that only increased my frustration and lack of understanding of her, and maybe even myself:

She said she needs a husband who’s there for her regardless of what she says. But for me it’s not what she says, it’s what she does. If she insults me and storms off am I supposed to go and plead with her to come back?

She then said that I would not have left a child in the same situation, to which I agreed, but said that she is a capable and responsible adult and therefore it’s different. She then said she wants the same kind of love and caring that I’d give a child and that she needs me to ‘be the man’ and ‘be her hero’ and be committed to her safety even when she’s acting like a twat.

And finally she said that she wants someone who would move a mountain for her even when she’d directly told them not to!

Thinking about this just makes my head ache! For 99.9% of the time in our relationship if I’d gone directly against her wishes or treated her like I would a child it would have led to an explosion that made Hiroshima look tame! Yet I’m supposed to do this – to ‘be the man’ and make her act against her own will – at certain times when she’s most angry and attacking? And not doing so is my fault and makes her hate me!?

What does this actually mean? That her ‘independent woman’ persona is not real? That it is real, right up until the moment that it isn’t, and I’m supposed to know when those moments are and switch role to the helpful patriarch? Something else?

If someone can shed some light on this please do as I’m really struggling. If I can’t solve this puzzle our relationship is likely to fail, and that’s the last thing I want.

Maybe it’s not her and there’s actually something wrong with me! If you think so, please tell me straight!

OP posts:
hamstersarse · 22/02/2023 13:37

greengriff · 22/02/2023 13:35

She skied off remember. I just didn't follow.

Ok, I give up

If you can't even for one second acknowledge that there might have been a better way, that's on you

You are also chosing to stay at war with your wife, and yes, divorce will likely follow

Good luck

GoldDuster · 22/02/2023 13:39

greengriff · 22/02/2023 11:22

Also if anyone ha any thoughts then I'd like to understand why I react so instantly and negatively to rudeness.

I don't think it's to do with how close I am to the person - if I sincerely offered a struggling stranger some help and they told me to f off I'd be fuming, and I would feel the same if it was my own mother.

I don't think it's the act of rejection per se - a polite 'no thank you' would not bother me in the least.

Plenty of other people would just brush a rude remark off, but it deeply offends me.

This seems to have got a bit lost in the nailing down of the size and the incline of the ski slope, but I think it's important.

You have an instant and negative reaction to rudeness, which other people would just be able to brush off and become deeply offended.

If a stranger told you to fuck off, you would be fuming. Whereas if someone else offered a stranger help and were to fuck off instead of a polite no thankyou they might feel initally a bit suprised, but then know that it was absolutely nothing to do with them whatsoever and maybe feel a bit sorry for them, wonder what was going on for them that they felt that was necesary, then carry on with their business.

You had a row and your wife told you to piss off, you are fuming. You have been fuming for six months.

Can you see that neither of you is right, or wrong, and hanging on to that like a dog with a bone as the "answer" won't fix a thing until you can deal with your fragile ego, and she can look at her anxious attachment and you can both learn to communicate more effectively.

AdamRyan · 22/02/2023 13:40

greengriff · 22/02/2023 13:32

Outlining the correct circumstances and answering criticisms of my description strikes me as pertinent to getting the best results out of this thread. Answers from people who have your incorrect assessment of the circumstances in mind when they formulate them are somewhat less likely to be helpful.

Ski slopes are designed so that areas where people might be changing direction/crossing pistes are as safe as possible. So I don't understand why she would need help in one of those places.

I also remain unclear what help you offered and what her response was.

Your response to me is to explain how ski slopes work in a way that's completely irrelevant to what I said. I find it patronising and annoying.

You also haven't addressed the point both hamster and I made about the impact of changing direction when you are up slope.

I think you are deliberately excluding valid context to ensure you can protect your position, that you are right and she is wrong.

I really don't care but if you genuinely want a successful marriage that is not a helpful approach.

greengriff · 22/02/2023 13:43

hamstersarse · 22/02/2023 13:37

Ok, I give up

If you can't even for one second acknowledge that there might have been a better way, that's on you

You are also chosing to stay at war with your wife, and yes, divorce will likely follow

Good luck

I'm sure there was a better way. But establishing what that better way might have been requires people to know the facts of what happened. 'She swore at me and then I skied off.' is totally different (and would likey get very different responses) to 'She swore at me and then she skied off.' which is why I was conscious to correct it.

OP posts:
SoCunningYouCanStickATailOnItAndCallItAFox · 22/02/2023 13:44

Op you've had a ton of helpful insight and constructive suggestions.
You're fixated on engaging with nit picking over slopes configuration.
You're gradually giving the impression that deep down you don't want to understand your wife and find a way forward together that respects you both without fear or favour, or heal the wound in your marriage through mutually improved communication.
You are giving the impression you want to be validated as right that day.

greengriff · 22/02/2023 13:46

Again a massive thank you to those of you that have taken the time to answer with useful insights. It's been extremely helpful. Conversely, no thank you at all to those who used their time (rather bizarrely in my view) to try and pick holes in my story rather than picking them in my psyche, which is what I actually needed.

OP posts:
pollykitty · 22/02/2023 13:46

I'm with you OP on this one, I don't think either of you behaved admirably, but I really cannot stand when women act all 'I'm the boss, independent woman except when I need a man to coddle me because sometimes I'm a scared vulnerable little girl and you should know the difference'. Is she an adult or not? Her behavior sounds incredibly immature and most definitely not one of a woman who takes care of herself. If she skied off, that's the same as storming off and it's a manipulation tactic. Both my husband and I have done this at various times in our marriage, and we don't follow each other. We figure the other will come back when they're ready. This comment really struck me :
"...ignored her calls, left her with no money and no idea how to get back to the hotel and that the whole thing was my fault."

  1. If you did ignore her calls, that's childish and you should apologize.
  2. Why didn't she have any money? She doesn't carry money or cards when skiing? That's on her and not your fault.
  3. No idea how to get back to the hotel....again why not? How did you get to the slopes? Why hasn't she familiarized herself with the logistics? Again I don't really see this as your fault. I plan and organise all of our holidays and if she's so independent, then she should be carrying her own money and know how to get around.

Arguments are almost never one person's fault in a marriage and trying to blame you solely is so immature. Maybe you did sound patronising when you asked her if she needed help. Fine, she should communicate that and you can apologise.

TrishM80 · 22/02/2023 13:47

BadNomad · 22/02/2023 12:47

I think a lot of people are seeing themselves in the wife's behaviour and so need to defend it.

Nailed it.

A lot of victim blaming going on in this thread. If a woman posted (as they frequently do) about their partner's emotional and/or physical abuse, no one would dream of saying "what did you do to make him angry?" It's a classic abuser's tactic to turn the fault on the victim. But here, it's fine apparently. Double standards on steroids.

hamstersarse · 22/02/2023 13:48

greengriff · 22/02/2023 13:46

Again a massive thank you to those of you that have taken the time to answer with useful insights. It's been extremely helpful. Conversely, no thank you at all to those who used their time (rather bizarrely in my view) to try and pick holes in my story rather than picking them in my psyche, which is what I actually needed.

Translation:

Thanks to those who called my wife a psycho and said she needs counselling

No thanks to anyone who pointed out that I may play some role in this argument

greengriff · 22/02/2023 13:48

SoCunningYouCanStickATailOnItAndCallItAFox · 22/02/2023 13:44

Op you've had a ton of helpful insight and constructive suggestions.
You're fixated on engaging with nit picking over slopes configuration.
You're gradually giving the impression that deep down you don't want to understand your wife and find a way forward together that respects you both without fear or favour, or heal the wound in your marriage through mutually improved communication.
You are giving the impression you want to be validated as right that day.

Indeed I have. Those 'negative' responses were only to answer people who were claiming that what I said must be factually wrong. I'd rather not have had to write them, but on net balance I feel it was worth doing in order to ensure the good level of answers I got.

OP posts:
greengriff · 22/02/2023 13:49

hamstersarse · 22/02/2023 13:48

Translation:

Thanks to those who called my wife a psycho and said she needs counselling

No thanks to anyone who pointed out that I may play some role in this argument

No, it's really important that I understand what I did wrong and could have done better. There have been several great posts laying those things out. It's just that yours weren't some of them.

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 22/02/2023 13:51

greengriff · 22/02/2023 13:48

Indeed I have. Those 'negative' responses were only to answer people who were claiming that what I said must be factually wrong. I'd rather not have had to write them, but on net balance I feel it was worth doing in order to ensure the good level of answers I got.

Where did anyone say you were factually wrong? Your ego is preventing you from reading what was actually written.

oh, and if you can find a quote where someone is saying you are factually wrong I will apologise

hamstersarse · 22/02/2023 13:51

So what have you learned from this thread?

What could you have done better?

pollykitty · 22/02/2023 13:51

Summerfun54321 · 22/02/2023 01:32

I ideally would like a diagram of where you both were on the ski slope, your trajectories and a rough scale to determine who threw the biggest tantrum on the ski slope that day.

Don't forget the location of the hotel and routes back to it 😂

SoCunningYouCanStickATailOnItAndCallItAFox · 22/02/2023 13:53

Well I hope you use the helpful stuff cos you've had some really illuminating replies.
Assuming both of you want to work on things and not just manipulate each other, all you really need is an open mind, self awareness and healthy communication and careful navigation of triggers. Neither of you can do it alone though but hopefully you'll both want to do it together.

GoldDuster · 22/02/2023 14:01

Going back to the start,

My relationship with my wife is currently at its lowest ebb. There are many reasons, but I wanted to focus on just one of them.

You would like to understand why she blames you for it, which implies that you feel that you're not to blame, despite the fact that you become instanty furious and deeply offended when someone is rude to you.

Here it is in black and white. There are two sides to this and given that you haven't gone into the many other reasons why the relationship is at it's lowest ebb, nor can you control her, the best and only thing to do would be to look at your part in the problem.

Because you do play a part. Garnering strangers on the internet validating your "rightness" due to which way you ski'd on that particular day is not going to help your marriage.

greengriff · 22/02/2023 14:01

AdamRyan · 22/02/2023 13:51

Where did anyone say you were factually wrong? Your ego is preventing you from reading what was actually written.

oh, and if you can find a quote where someone is saying you are factually wrong I will apologise

Just from your posts here is you saying falsee things that - by accident or design - make my story look not true

"skiing off was petty of you"

"the bits where you can cross piste or ski off are generally not the steep/ice prone bits, as that would be incredibly dangerous."

"You can't ski off in a different direction unless you are at a cross road/ski lift. In which case you did leave her"

"Ski slopes are designed so that areas where people might be changing direction/crossing pistes are as safe as possible."

OP posts:
15feb · 22/02/2023 14:03

I think the bigger issue here is mind games. How are you supposed to know when she wants you to be the big man hero, and when she'll interpret it as patronising and misogynistic (which she did your offer to help, and at other times)?

I think maybe what you can both do is agree on boundaries and clear communication. It's not romantic but it works when people are a mess of contradictions.

So e.g. discuss nicely and equally together:

  • First, guidelines around civility if possible, if you're both always shouting at each other or arguing viciously
  • Was the issue here actually physical safety or something more? Be clear about that
  • Decide what constitutes physical danger. Do you need her to communicate that she feels unsafe to you in that situation? Or is there any other "code" language you can use for that? What are some examples of unsafe situations? Should you just assume most situations are dangerous for her?
  • Decide whether physical safety is unconditional. Decide: will you be there for her no matter how rude she gets, no matter whether she leaves the scene, and whether she tells you to go away? (Note: despite what PPs say, not an obligation in my view, no human is entitled to that)
  • Or will you be there for her as long as she doesn't EXPLICITLY tell you to go away?
  • Or in such situations, should you respect her IMPLIED body language for you to go when she turns away?
  • On your end, are you someone who needs space when hurt? Do you need to tell her "I need space" or will there be an implied promise to come back and regroup? Within how long, or is it even necessary?
  • Etc

A lot of questions above are about her needs and your boundaries – tbf she seems like the mind game player in the relationship – but also good to consider the reverse so it feels / is more equal

greengriff · 22/02/2023 14:04

hamstersarse · 22/02/2023 13:51

So what have you learned from this thread?

What could you have done better?

Oh god there's loads! Crucially I learned why she behaves the way she does and that it's not her fault. This alone will help me enormously in having empathy for her position and not taking what she says in the moment too literally.

OP posts:
Choconut · 22/02/2023 14:05

It sounds like she needs to constantly push you away to prove to herself that she doesn't need you - but she wants you to constantly follow her and reassure her so that she feels loved by you. However if you did trail around after her then she probably wouldn't have any respect for you because she would consider you weak.

So I don't think you can win here to be honest. The fact that she can only accept praise from you and nothing else suggests her self esteem is very fragile.

I think she's probably not the person you think she is or that she portrays. She may seem to have a high ego but I would suspect low or very fragile self esteem, unable to take any criticism, unable to be wrong about anything. Her childhood is no doubt at the root of it.

GoldDuster · 22/02/2023 14:08

I learned why she behaves the way she does and that it's not her fault.

....but still not much about your possible part in The Great Ski Flounce Off 2022.

greengriff · 22/02/2023 14:08

GoldDuster · 22/02/2023 14:08

I learned why she behaves the way she does and that it's not her fault.

....but still not much about your possible part in The Great Ski Flounce Off 2022.

No, so if anyone has any great insights into my behaviour then I'd be happy to hear them.

OP posts:
GoldDuster · 22/02/2023 14:10

Mate, you are a proper wind up, are you serious?

greengriff · 22/02/2023 14:12

GoldDuster · 22/02/2023 14:10

Mate, you are a proper wind up, are you serious?

100%. Why on earth would I waste all this time if I wasn't? I've got plenty of things that need doing that I haven't done so that I can respond to this thread. As I said at the beginning, I'm pretty desperate.

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 22/02/2023 14:14

greengriff · 22/02/2023 14:01

Just from your posts here is you saying falsee things that - by accident or design - make my story look not true

"skiing off was petty of you"

"the bits where you can cross piste or ski off are generally not the steep/ice prone bits, as that would be incredibly dangerous."

"You can't ski off in a different direction unless you are at a cross road/ski lift. In which case you did leave her"

"Ski slopes are designed so that areas where people might be changing direction/crossing pistes are as safe as possible."

My opinion is that skiing off in a different direction to someone downslope after an argument is petty as you know they can't follow you. This is an opinion not a fact though.

The rest of it is all correct no?

I think your story is "true" but I suspect you were unhelpful to her, she responded angrily and you skied off in a strop to punish her, knowing she wouldn't be able to catch you up. No "facts" you've presented suggest this is incorrect.

And the fact you can't even engage because you think I'm saying you are "factually wrong" so you're going to ignore it, is probably indicative of exactly the problem your wife is having.

Essentially "you are wrong so I'm not listening" when she's trying to talk to you.