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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Desperately in need of help to understand my wife (and myself)!

373 replies

greengriff · 21/02/2023 12:14

I’m really in need of some advice. My relationship with my wife is currently at its lowest ebb. There are many reasons, but I wanted to focus on just one of them, an incident that took place on holiday last year. I want to talk about this incident firstly because my wife described this it as the ‘breaking point’ in our marriage and that it caused her to hate me a little bit, and secondly because I don’t understand why she blames me for it and I would really, really like to.

First a bit of what I believe is relevant background information: My wife grew up with a very domineering father. She chafed under his rules and couldn’t wait to get out of his house and rule her own life. Consequently, anything she even perceives as an attempt by me to tell her what to do is like a red rag to a bull and is guaranteed to lead to an instant confrontation. She views these kind of moments through the dynamic of sex (i.e. ‘you think because you’re the man that you should be in charge..’ etc.) whereas I view them as simply a clash of two quite dominant personalities. She very much emphasizes her independence as a grown woman from the need for a man and considers it patronising and reacts negatively if I ever have an opinion (apart from praise) regarding how she’s doing something. She is an extremely intelligent, strong-willed and capable person who, if she decides she’s going to do something, will work ceaselessly until she does. She’s definitely not one of life’s victims.

Anyway, to the point: We were on a skiing holiday last year. The slope at the time was very icy but pitch-wise it was nothing extreme. To give some perspective she’d skied steeper slopes many dozens (maybe even hundreds) of times before and there were at least a hundred other people on it of all levels. But it was indeed icy and unpleasant to ski and she was not definitely having fun, so - seeing that she was struggling - I offered to help. She shouted some abuse at me and skied off. Feeling thoroughly pssed off that an attempted act of kindness elicited such an unexpected response, I skied off in a different direction to do my own thing. When we met back at the hotel in the afternoon she told me that I’d abandoned her, leaving her scared and alone, ignored her calls, left her with no money and no idea how to get back to the hotel and that the whole thing was my fault. This obviously irritated the living sht out of me as I believed that I’d done nothing wrong and was in fact the wronged party.

This argument never really went away and we got stuck into it again last night, where some extra details were added that only increased my frustration and lack of understanding of her, and maybe even myself:

She said she needs a husband who’s there for her regardless of what she says. But for me it’s not what she says, it’s what she does. If she insults me and storms off am I supposed to go and plead with her to come back?

She then said that I would not have left a child in the same situation, to which I agreed, but said that she is a capable and responsible adult and therefore it’s different. She then said she wants the same kind of love and caring that I’d give a child and that she needs me to ‘be the man’ and ‘be her hero’ and be committed to her safety even when she’s acting like a twat.

And finally she said that she wants someone who would move a mountain for her even when she’d directly told them not to!

Thinking about this just makes my head ache! For 99.9% of the time in our relationship if I’d gone directly against her wishes or treated her like I would a child it would have led to an explosion that made Hiroshima look tame! Yet I’m supposed to do this – to ‘be the man’ and make her act against her own will – at certain times when she’s most angry and attacking? And not doing so is my fault and makes her hate me!?

What does this actually mean? That her ‘independent woman’ persona is not real? That it is real, right up until the moment that it isn’t, and I’m supposed to know when those moments are and switch role to the helpful patriarch? Something else?

If someone can shed some light on this please do as I’m really struggling. If I can’t solve this puzzle our relationship is likely to fail, and that’s the last thing I want.

Maybe it’s not her and there’s actually something wrong with me! If you think so, please tell me straight!

OP posts:
Oioicaptain · 22/02/2023 19:37

Re the skiing incident, I appreciate that she skied off, but I don't think that you should have left the slopes and just left her there after she had snapped at you. Presumably she didn't go in the opposite direction to you, but continued down the slope expecting that you would do the same. In her mind you patronised her and her ability to ski, despite her being in control and then flounced off leaving her without money, knowing where you were and how to get to the hotel. Based upon that example of your behaviour, neither of you come out of this well. As for the rest of it - she does sound extremely hard work. It's hard to know the line re looking after and protecting/nurturing someone and patronising/undermining them. It definitely sounds as though you would benefit from counselling so that you can understand each others point of view. You might then discover that you are just not compatible. Or you might learn to read each other better.

Branleuse · 22/02/2023 21:33

You probably should have followed her for safety reasons, being that she was not in a great frame of mind, and therefore could have done with you making sure she was ok. She acted like a dickhead, and while I dont blame you for being outraged, id have been too worried not to follow, considering you were skiing which is dangerous, and she clearly wasnt having a good time. Something about your communication is going wrong. She doesnt trust that you care about her wellbeing, and im not sure you do. Its not like walking off in strop when in your own environment. I think deliberatly skiing off on a different slope abroad to your upset partner, is quite a statement. Youve made it seem like its just like going home early from the pub

WidthofaLine · 22/02/2023 22:29

Lets create a different scenario op for you to understand.

Imagine you are in a hospital bed, you are due to have an operation the following day, you may be frightened, you've not had a general anesthetic before, you are in pain and your wife is sat visiting you at your bedside.

You find her being a little insensitive to your situation and you have a spat, you lash out and tell her to f off, this happens all the time in hospital settings where the patient feels vunerable.

She takes your advice and goes, you have the operation the next day and feel relieved all went well, but your wife doesn't come again, in fact she turns off her phone and blocks you. You spend the next week in hospital without a visit from her.
How would you feel, abandoned, deserted and unloved, but why, you told her to f off, she was only following orders. No, you would feel she was a hearless bitch who punished you for your weakness at a vunerable time.

Would you forgive her ?
Maybe, but you would never forget.

In fact you would be fearful again in case you ever became ill again wouldn't you, and rightly so because you would know deep down she didn't really give a shit about you if the worst happened.

NovelFarmer · 22/02/2023 22:42

“I'd like to understand why I react so instantly and negatively to rudeness.”

You seem to clearly enjoy a debate and winning an argument.
Perhaps you see yourself as more alpha. And perhaps in your life you are and get treated as such.
When someone challenges this it offends your pride. It’s not something you ordinarily have to tolerate.

When your wife said she needs you to ‘be the man’ and ‘be her hero’, she was insulting the way you see yourself. And so you can’t agree with her because in your mind it’s agreeing to you being less than and maybe not alpha.

WidthofaLine · 22/02/2023 22:54

I wonder if this situation has been discussed with family, her parents, friends of yours and your reluctance to admit fault would adversly affect your reputation as a decent person.

There could be a lot at stake.

Gremlinsateit · 22/02/2023 23:00

In the spirit of insights into your behaviour, I think you have black and white thinking, and I think that you focus on facts to the exclusion of feelings and pride yourself on being rational when others are not. Relationships are rarely about logic.

Your wife was frightened (in a situation that many find frightening) and pushed you away, and then you distanced yourself from her physically and emotionally (where many would have done the same), triggering in her feelings of abandonment that arose from fear not facts (feelings which many others would have experienced, no matter how unfair).

Your focus on right and wrong will not assist you to reconcile.

This is one incident of several, you say, so have a look at whether there is a pattern and consider therapy for yourselves together and separately.

mathanxiety · 22/02/2023 23:44

Well yes, because her perception of the facts about what happened are what she's deriving her feelings from!

@greengriff

You want to prove to her that because her facts are wrong and yours are right, her feelings are wrong. Therefore she needs to acknowledge to you that you are right and her feelings are wrong.

If you sincerely believe that anything even within bargepole distance of this scenario is going to happen, you have a lot of work to do.

mathanxiety · 22/02/2023 23:48

Would you rather have your rightness acknowledged, or be divorced, is basically what it comes down to.

You need to recognise the role that feelings play in your life.

I agree with PPs that you have built a sense of identity centered around being factual / rational / someone who bases reactions on solid facts. What made you into this person?

greengriff · 23/02/2023 09:04

mathanxiety · 22/02/2023 23:48

Would you rather have your rightness acknowledged, or be divorced, is basically what it comes down to.

You need to recognise the role that feelings play in your life.

I agree with PPs that you have built a sense of identity centered around being factual / rational / someone who bases reactions on solid facts. What made you into this person?

Now those are two great questions!

100%, I will not be blamed for something where I had no blame. However digging into this question revealed that I do carry some blame, so I don't think it will come down to that.

To answer the second question risks derailing the thread but it's interesting so I will try: I'm not sure whether is was 'made' into that kind of person, or am just wired that way, but it seems rather obvious that a world where matters were decided based on feelings rather than facts would be utterly insane!

'Why did you drive your car off a cliff, killing all your passengers?'
'I felt that gravity wasn't true.'
'Well that's OK then, off you go.'

OP posts:
GoldDuster · 23/02/2023 09:10

100%, I will not be blamed for something where I had no blame.

Why? What happens if this occurs?

Same with the intense reaction to perceived rudeness. What happens?

I think both challenge your fragile sense of self.

A person with healthy self esteem finds neither of these things massively problematic, they don't threaten a healthy ego.

ConfusedNT · 23/02/2023 09:10

greengriff · 23/02/2023 09:04

Now those are two great questions!

100%, I will not be blamed for something where I had no blame. However digging into this question revealed that I do carry some blame, so I don't think it will come down to that.

To answer the second question risks derailing the thread but it's interesting so I will try: I'm not sure whether is was 'made' into that kind of person, or am just wired that way, but it seems rather obvious that a world where matters were decided based on feelings rather than facts would be utterly insane!

'Why did you drive your car off a cliff, killing all your passengers?'
'I felt that gravity wasn't true.'
'Well that's OK then, off you go.'

But loads of decisions are made on feelings rather than fact, your scenario is a bit far fetched

Did you marry your wife because you loved her (feelings) or because you decided you needed a wife and she met your criteria (fact)

If you had children did you have them because you wanted children (feeling) or because you thought that was the next life stage you had reached (fact)

Now you may be on the fact side of both of those but there are plenty of people on the feeling side and that doesn't make them utterly insane

I bought our current house because we fell in love with it, not because it ticked all the boxes of things we needed. It ticked most of them and was in our budget so mostly fact based but the final decision between three houses was absolutely feelings based

Even simple things what you choose to eat or wear or do can be based wholly on facts, wholly on feelings or a mixture of the two.

AdamRyan · 23/02/2023 09:11

Do you think you might be neurodiverse op? This level of reliance on facts seems out of the ordinary.

Lots of life operates on instinct/feelings rather than "facts" and it keeps them perfectly safe.

"Feelings" are more akin to an automated computer programme running in the body, than a random whim.

GoldDuster · 23/02/2023 09:14

AdamRyan · 23/02/2023 09:11

Do you think you might be neurodiverse op? This level of reliance on facts seems out of the ordinary.

Lots of life operates on instinct/feelings rather than "facts" and it keeps them perfectly safe.

"Feelings" are more akin to an automated computer programme running in the body, than a random whim.

I've been wondering this since page two, I think you may have hit a nail on the head there.

TedMullins · 23/02/2023 09:47

i don’t know why so many people are so desperate to paint the wife as the victim here. I’m not saying OP is perfect or blameless, I’m sure he has his faults in communication but you can’t seriously think it’s reasonable for his wife to expect him to be a mind reader? She made clear she wants to be independent and doesn’t want help but actually wants him to do the opposite, and wants to be chased and coddled when she storms off in a huff. That’s emotional manipulation. Being in a relationship does not mean you unconditionally take whatever shit your partner throws at you.

What jumped out at me was OP saying she wouldn’t react well to him suggesting she gets individual therapy. Unless she can accept she has issues detrimental to the relationship and to herself, then I can’t see how a resolution is possible. OP is willing to put the work in but it doesn’t sound like the wife is!

greengriff · 23/02/2023 09:50

ConfusedNT · 23/02/2023 09:10

But loads of decisions are made on feelings rather than fact, your scenario is a bit far fetched

Did you marry your wife because you loved her (feelings) or because you decided you needed a wife and she met your criteria (fact)

If you had children did you have them because you wanted children (feeling) or because you thought that was the next life stage you had reached (fact)

Now you may be on the fact side of both of those but there are plenty of people on the feeling side and that doesn't make them utterly insane

I bought our current house because we fell in love with it, not because it ticked all the boxes of things we needed. It ticked most of them and was in our budget so mostly fact based but the final decision between three houses was absolutely feelings based

Even simple things what you choose to eat or wear or do can be based wholly on facts, wholly on feelings or a mixture of the two.

Sorry, my poor choice of words led this down the wrong path. What I should have said was 'matters of right and wrong were decided based on feelings...'

OP posts:
greengriff · 23/02/2023 09:51

AdamRyan · 23/02/2023 09:11

Do you think you might be neurodiverse op? This level of reliance on facts seems out of the ordinary.

Lots of life operates on instinct/feelings rather than "facts" and it keeps them perfectly safe.

"Feelings" are more akin to an automated computer programme running in the body, than a random whim.

I have no idea. It's possible I guess.

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 23/02/2023 09:56

I think it might be worth exploring a bit. If that is the case then it would help both you and your wife understand what's going on, as you will have very different worldviews and there will be no point trying to agree on them, but you can each be more aware of yourselves and each other and how you interoperate.

I'm not a doctor so take all this with a pinch of salt, but what you've written here and your reaction seems to be more than a usual run of the mill argument.

If you are ND then i apologise for saying it was a suspicious post Flowers

ConfusedNT · 23/02/2023 10:01

greengriff · 23/02/2023 09:50

Sorry, my poor choice of words led this down the wrong path. What I should have said was 'matters of right and wrong were decided based on feelings...'

I think @AdamRyan has a point so I am not going to harp on about this too much

I just think your main issue here is that you think this is a matter or right or wrong, when your wife appears to be talking about her feelings. I think that's part of what's causing the communication issues because you are talking about the same scenario from two different ways

BadNomad · 23/02/2023 10:03

AdamRyan

Omg that is so patronising. Even if he is ND, it doesn't make his feelings on the matter any less valid. It doesn't make him "wrong". When you are assigning blame, of course facts matter! People don't go to prison because some feels someone did something wrong. His wife might feel he was in the wrong, but that is just her opinion. He feels he wasn't in the wrong. That is equally valid. Don't start that "if you're autistic you might not know when you are wrong" shit.

AdamRyan · 23/02/2023 10:14

BadNomad · 23/02/2023 10:03

AdamRyan

Omg that is so patronising. Even if he is ND, it doesn't make his feelings on the matter any less valid. It doesn't make him "wrong". When you are assigning blame, of course facts matter! People don't go to prison because some feels someone did something wrong. His wife might feel he was in the wrong, but that is just her opinion. He feels he wasn't in the wrong. That is equally valid. Don't start that "if you're autistic you might not know when you are wrong" shit.

I'm not saying if he's autistic he might not know he's wrong 🙄

How OP has related to me and others on the thread triggered the thought - getting bogged down in facts, black and white thinking, "right" vs "wrong". It's very similar to how ND people I know Talk and I see them finding it confusing and bewildering that not everyone thinks in terms of facts.

Equally I've seen NT people take things very personally from an ND partner that shouldn't be taken personally. Interpreting a factual statement as a criticism, for example.

I think a relationship between an ND/NT couple will have challenges due to different ways of seeing the world.

If that's a factor here then understanding and recognising that could make the difference between the marriage surviving or failing.

BadNomad · 23/02/2023 10:30

You've spent the whole thread trying to convince him that his perspective is wrong. But now because you've failed to change his mind, you're implying it could be because he is ND. Have you considered that maybe it is you who is wrong? And your failure to see things from his perspective could mean you are ND?

AdamRyan · 23/02/2023 11:16

I don't think there is any such thing as a "wrong" perspective. I think people have reasons for believing/acting as they do and the trick is to figure out what those reasons are.

Up until earlier I thought OP had started the thread to show his wife to prove his point as he was so invested in being right. Unfortunately some abusive men do that.

Based on how he's engaged more recently I now believe that isn't the motivation, which means his black/white thinking is driven by something else. I'm trying to figure out what that could be.

greengriff · 23/02/2023 11:20

AdamRyan · 23/02/2023 11:16

I don't think there is any such thing as a "wrong" perspective. I think people have reasons for believing/acting as they do and the trick is to figure out what those reasons are.

Up until earlier I thought OP had started the thread to show his wife to prove his point as he was so invested in being right. Unfortunately some abusive men do that.

Based on how he's engaged more recently I now believe that isn't the motivation, which means his black/white thinking is driven by something else. I'm trying to figure out what that could be.

Absolutely the very last thing on earth I'd do is show this to my wife! To say she wouldn't appreciate some of the comments is the understatement of the century.

OP posts:
BadNomad · 23/02/2023 11:32

I think his intentions have been clear from the start. He's married to woman who reacts verbally aggressively due to childhood trauma and he wants to understand why this seemingly intelligent woman can't see herself and why she believes it is his fault that she takes her anger out on him. Which is a valid question! Because, no one deserves to be treated like that. So it actually doesn't matter if he is ND or not, it won't make it any easier to live with walking on eggshells and having to tolerate being snapped at. He does not make her react the way she does.

AdamRyan · 23/02/2023 11:53

He hasn't actually explained what the "verbal aggression" was, has admitted he reacts immediately and abruptly to "rudeness" and has admitted he did leave her alone on the ski slope with no contact so let's not pretend this is a clear cut situation. He also asked for perspectives, including on his own behaviour.

Noone has to tolerate abusive behaviours, equally its impossible to "change" another person. You can only change your own behaviours and establish your own boundaries about what you will or won't tolerate in a relationship, and hope they react to that or leave.