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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

feckin conspiracy theories

212 replies

logicandfacts · 27/11/2022 18:09

Has anyone managed to change someone's mind about misinformation, conspiracy theories - all the stuff that's caused so many problems in relationships over the past few years?

Has any media made a decent programme explaining how this happens to people? If there is, I could show it to "people".

I find it absolutely enraging that I can't change people's minds. AITA?

Examples can be provided.

OP posts:
MysteriesOfTheOrganism · 28/11/2022 20:51

Nursejackie1 · 27/11/2022 22:34

What I don’t understand is the common explanation that conspiracy theorists are looking for comforting answers to their feelings of unrest, trying to make sense of the world. Surely believing that the elite are actually lizards from outer space that guzzle the blood of babies for their adrenochrome and that covid vaccines are microchipping the masses doesn’t do much to calm the nerves?

It's more that they tend to have a fundamental insecurity about themselves and their place in the world, and when you are insecure the unknown is profoundly distressing. So everything has to have an explanation, things have to make sense, there have to be recognisable patterns - and there can be no space for uncertainty.

Aishah231 · 28/11/2022 21:42

Winter2020 · 27/11/2022 19:07

@OldFan
Have you forgotten that we had people dying in droves. Massive excess deaths if you are sceptical about "of covid or with covid". They seem pretty good to me.

Excess deaths are much higher now. Up to 17-18% higher than they should be.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 28/11/2022 22:54

Some people are a bit thick. They know this in their hearts, that whatever they are capable of, there are other people who are smarter, quicker, better at things than they are or seem to be appreciated more for what they can do. For all they can do, there's something they can't quite put their finger on that means they just can't do quite as well, whether it's at work, at home, in the pub - they feel that there's something missing, something just out of reach and if they could only reach that thing, every part of their life would improve. They're permanently dissatisfied but for whatever reason, they aren't able to make changes that would improve their lives.

And then something comes along that more people don't understand or can't control. The experts can't give all the answers, the information is constantly changing, politicians do what they do best - influencing people. Everything's in flux, nothing seems stable or secure and that uneasy feeling that there's something missing spreads to more of their life and it feels as though everything is running out of control.

Those people then hear somebody whispering in their ear (through YouTube or social media because they're looking for answers). 'It's not you, it's them. They're the ones responsible for your misfortune. It's not your fault, They are sneaking around behind the scenes deliberately working to screw you over. And now they're doing it in plain sight, they're so confident that nobody has seen them for what they are, mocking you' Wait, what? Who's 'They'?.

And the answer (The Chinese, Jews, Muslims, Left leaning politicians, communists, doctors, huge companies that make more money than they could ever comprehend - whether faceless corporations or charismatic/influential CEOs - etc, etc) makes sense to them. There isn't anything lacking in their abilities, personality or circumstances. It's not their fault, it's somebody else. Like the feeling that there's some secret thing that's held them back in life and kept them in a dissatisfying environment, that secret thing is a symptom of the same going on at a worldwide level. And this whisperer has given them this information. This information is a big secret that they're now ready to hear. Because they're special. They're worthy of this information. They're the key to stopping this; the Only Hope. They are the Chosen Ones.

Some will proselytise, to share the secret, to be treated as the expert, the one with the knowledge, some will retreat into planning to be the ones who come out on top and to be hailed as the ones who knew all along. They watch vlogs, they read, they listen to people confirming their view, they see more and more that feeds their self image as being the ones who knew. When facts get in their way, well, you just have to believe, those facts are there purely to lead you astray from 'the truth'. Only the Faithful will survive. You gotta have Faith.

500 years ago, scientific facts would be interpreted as The Devil putting doubt into their head. And you have to cast the devil out. They've likely grown up with some cultural religious conditioning where they sort of know at some level that Faith in the unseen defeats Evil.

The key to manipulating them is convincing them where Satan is hiding. And centuries of Antisemitism is pretty useful for that; there's two millennia of cultural works, of religious imagery, of plays, of books, of films, of cartoons, all ticking away in the background, telling them that Evil is always there, stealing their success and happiness. And if that's not enough, you can throw in Anticatholicism/Protestantism/misogyny to convince them that everything is the fault of Somebody Else who is deliberately, malevolently acting to ensure that the person hasn't achieved the acclaim and success/wealth/power/sex/adoration that they feel they deserve.

They see 'Satan' everywhere. They just don't use that name for the concept. They use Bill Gates, Big Pharma, men who they can't understand having a life they feel they deserved, women who would never want them, different ethnicities, different beliefs.

Religion and the concept of personification of Why Bad Things Happen is a fundamental of the human condition. And whilst some, most, can see that sometimes Shit Just Happens (and other people being a rubbish makes it worse), these are the ones who want to be burning witches, sacrificing others, casting the Devil out. Because the alternative, that Shit Just Happens and sometimes, there is no other reason for failure than You're a Bit Crap, Really, is too much for them to bear.

Nursejackie1 · 28/11/2022 23:28

@NeverDropYourMooncup thats probably the best explanation I’ve heard about CT’s.

Watchkeys · 29/11/2022 08:56

@Haffiana

there is absolutely a need to draw a line in the sand and say this is Real and that is Total Bollocks

Who do you suggest has the authority to draw this line?

What do you think we should have done, 'on a societal level', regarding Capitol Hill?

RosettaStormer · 29/11/2022 10:28

NeverDropYourMooncup · 28/11/2022 22:54

Some people are a bit thick. They know this in their hearts, that whatever they are capable of, there are other people who are smarter, quicker, better at things than they are or seem to be appreciated more for what they can do. For all they can do, there's something they can't quite put their finger on that means they just can't do quite as well, whether it's at work, at home, in the pub - they feel that there's something missing, something just out of reach and if they could only reach that thing, every part of their life would improve. They're permanently dissatisfied but for whatever reason, they aren't able to make changes that would improve their lives.

And then something comes along that more people don't understand or can't control. The experts can't give all the answers, the information is constantly changing, politicians do what they do best - influencing people. Everything's in flux, nothing seems stable or secure and that uneasy feeling that there's something missing spreads to more of their life and it feels as though everything is running out of control.

Those people then hear somebody whispering in their ear (through YouTube or social media because they're looking for answers). 'It's not you, it's them. They're the ones responsible for your misfortune. It's not your fault, They are sneaking around behind the scenes deliberately working to screw you over. And now they're doing it in plain sight, they're so confident that nobody has seen them for what they are, mocking you' Wait, what? Who's 'They'?.

And the answer (The Chinese, Jews, Muslims, Left leaning politicians, communists, doctors, huge companies that make more money than they could ever comprehend - whether faceless corporations or charismatic/influential CEOs - etc, etc) makes sense to them. There isn't anything lacking in their abilities, personality or circumstances. It's not their fault, it's somebody else. Like the feeling that there's some secret thing that's held them back in life and kept them in a dissatisfying environment, that secret thing is a symptom of the same going on at a worldwide level. And this whisperer has given them this information. This information is a big secret that they're now ready to hear. Because they're special. They're worthy of this information. They're the key to stopping this; the Only Hope. They are the Chosen Ones.

Some will proselytise, to share the secret, to be treated as the expert, the one with the knowledge, some will retreat into planning to be the ones who come out on top and to be hailed as the ones who knew all along. They watch vlogs, they read, they listen to people confirming their view, they see more and more that feeds their self image as being the ones who knew. When facts get in their way, well, you just have to believe, those facts are there purely to lead you astray from 'the truth'. Only the Faithful will survive. You gotta have Faith.

500 years ago, scientific facts would be interpreted as The Devil putting doubt into their head. And you have to cast the devil out. They've likely grown up with some cultural religious conditioning where they sort of know at some level that Faith in the unseen defeats Evil.

The key to manipulating them is convincing them where Satan is hiding. And centuries of Antisemitism is pretty useful for that; there's two millennia of cultural works, of religious imagery, of plays, of books, of films, of cartoons, all ticking away in the background, telling them that Evil is always there, stealing their success and happiness. And if that's not enough, you can throw in Anticatholicism/Protestantism/misogyny to convince them that everything is the fault of Somebody Else who is deliberately, malevolently acting to ensure that the person hasn't achieved the acclaim and success/wealth/power/sex/adoration that they feel they deserve.

They see 'Satan' everywhere. They just don't use that name for the concept. They use Bill Gates, Big Pharma, men who they can't understand having a life they feel they deserved, women who would never want them, different ethnicities, different beliefs.

Religion and the concept of personification of Why Bad Things Happen is a fundamental of the human condition. And whilst some, most, can see that sometimes Shit Just Happens (and other people being a rubbish makes it worse), these are the ones who want to be burning witches, sacrificing others, casting the Devil out. Because the alternative, that Shit Just Happens and sometimes, there is no other reason for failure than You're a Bit Crap, Really, is too much for them to bear.

Brilliant summary

Kirstenwe456 · 29/11/2022 15:25

@monsteramunch
@EmmaAgain22
I’d never hear the bleeding last of it if I got me or my daughter vaccinated.

monsteramunch · 29/11/2022 15:27

Kirstenwe456 · 29/11/2022 15:25

@monsteramunch
@EmmaAgain22
I’d never hear the bleeding last of it if I got me or my daughter vaccinated.

How would they know though? You don't need to tell them.

If you believe that being vaccinated is safer, which is your personal choice to make, then their opinion shouldn't dictate your decision.

Especially if you have a child!

Tdcp · 29/11/2022 16:35

My mum and brothers haven't spoken to me in 3 years because of conspiracy theories. It'd be a barrage of information the second I walked their door, mostly old stuff like chemtrails and flouride etc, but I can't know what they know because they are awake and I'm a sheep.

I was shouted at / thrown out more than once because I wouldn't do as they said to "save myself / my child" etc (they tried to enforce that dd wouldn't watch Disney films for example.. she was 3). My mother always got so irate when I wouldn't do as she told as she is " enlightened" etc. When Covid came around they thought marshall law was coming in and we'd all be shot in our homes. I admit I said that's not going to happen and it's ridiculous I had a barrage of abuse from her including one sentence that really stuck with me, it'd be because of my stupidity and being a sheep that I'd have my daughter killed (she was 5, not that that matters) and that she'd laugh when it happened.

Conspiracy theory beliefs change people, it's like a cult. I can't stomach any mention of any conspiracy theory now, it's immensely triggering.

Nursejackie1 · 29/11/2022 19:06

Watchkeys · 29/11/2022 08:56

@Haffiana

there is absolutely a need to draw a line in the sand and say this is Real and that is Total Bollocks

Who do you suggest has the authority to draw this line?

What do you think we should have done, 'on a societal level', regarding Capitol Hill?

Oh Ffs

Watchkeys · 29/11/2022 19:08

Thanks NurseJackie. Could you stop tagging and quoting me please? I wasn't talking to you and don't wish to engage further with you. I've suggested we agree to disagree, and this post was nothing but a dig. Let it go.

Nursejackie1 · 29/11/2022 19:16

@Watchkeys maybe don’t post on a public forum if you don’t want your points discussed. I can’t get my head round your perception of truth.Imagine this… If you were on a plane travelling somewhere would you hope that somebody who learnt how much fuel is needed is the person to fill up the plane? Or would you be happy for someone to half fill it because their belief (based on nothing) is that half the fuel needed will be fine. You see truth and reality are very important. We can’t just have people going around guessing at things, can you see that?

RosettaStormer · 29/11/2022 19:19

My brother was actually telling me after my second vaccine that I was going to die. Why would you say that to someone even if it was true?

teaandtoastwithmarmite · 29/11/2022 19:22

RosettaStormer · 29/11/2022 19:19

My brother was actually telling me after my second vaccine that I was going to die. Why would you say that to someone even if it was true?

That's awful. My so called best friend sent me a picture of a kid disabled in a wheelchair to warn me against having my dd vaccinated. And also said one day your mum will die and how will you feel if you hadn't seen her because you were 'keeping her safe'. After my dad died in a lockdown and I couldn't see him in a home he was in.

Hawkins001 · 29/11/2022 20:00

How comparable, is the belief in conspiracy theories, vs a belief in religion ?

Watchkeys · 29/11/2022 20:20

Hawkins001 · 29/11/2022 20:00

How comparable, is the belief in conspiracy theories, vs a belief in religion ?

Conspiracy theories need alleged proof, religion accepts itself as a belief.

Hawkins001 · 29/11/2022 20:25

Watchkeys · 29/11/2022 20:20

Conspiracy theories need alleged proof, religion accepts itself as a belief.

Fair points.

what about conspiracy theories that have be confirmed to be true,
Are people ment to believe all groups, various individuals are all holy and truthful, until shown other wise ?

Haffiana · 30/11/2022 09:41

This is what Conspiracy Theories can lead to. A concrete example of exactly why a line has to be drawn with no regard for the 'respect' or 'rights' of those whose thinking and belief system has become simply disordered and dangerous:

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/30/new-zealand-parents-refuse-use-of-vaccinated-blood-in-life-saving-surgery-on-baby

It is a good example because it chimes with the lived experiences of several posters on this this thread regarding their families and acquaintances.

Vincitveritas · 30/11/2022 10:06

@NeverDropYourMooncup It sounds as though you're saying having belief in God/ religious beliefs is the same as being a conspiracy theorist. 🤔

monsteramunch · 30/11/2022 10:21

@Vincitveritas

I think it's a really interesting comparison. I guess believing something without irrefutable evidence, so based on faith, is the similar factor?

Vincitveritas · 30/11/2022 11:06

@monsteramunch I suppose it is and I can see how people might find the thought of someone believing in miracles, angels, demons, spirits, the devil etc would seem completely crackers tbf.

Hawkins001 · 30/11/2022 12:00

Haffiana · 30/11/2022 09:41

This is what Conspiracy Theories can lead to. A concrete example of exactly why a line has to be drawn with no regard for the 'respect' or 'rights' of those whose thinking and belief system has become simply disordered and dangerous:

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/30/new-zealand-parents-refuse-use-of-vaccinated-blood-in-life-saving-surgery-on-baby

It is a good example because it chimes with the lived experiences of several posters on this this thread regarding their families and acquaintances.

T the same point, certain people that believe in religion have also refused treatment, due to their beliefs.

Haffiana · 30/11/2022 12:28

Hawkins001 · 30/11/2022 12:00

T the same point, certain people that believe in religion have also refused treatment, due to their beliefs.

Yes. Conspiracy theorists are caught in a belief system. It is a matter of belief and faith, not fact or rationality. Their 'god' is a mysterious cabal who are secretly manipulating events on a global scale. Those who 'know' about this are the special, chosen Enlightened Ones.

It is however a religion more on a par with a cult, Scientology or Jehovah's Witnesses or other radical, proselytising religions.

Like all of these, there is extreme danger to those who are children as well as other vulnerable for whatever reason adults who cannot escape from these beliefs.

MushMonster · 30/11/2022 17:32

This is really sad, but alongside the conspiracy theorists themselves I think yet again this goverment has a part to be blamed for.
Reality at present sounds like something from a conspuracy from the 60s and they do nothing but make our lives more miserable, difficult and unreal, day by day..