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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

So fed up and think I give up on men

382 replies

Missillusioned78 · 29/10/2022 23:10

I am 44. I would really like a fulfilling equal relationship.

The only man I have met who interests me treats me as someone to ring on the way home when pissed.

I have a full life of work, friends, hobbies and my wonderful children. I am not rich but getting by with my home. We are happy.

I am SO disappointed with men. Don’t know whether to just give up

OP posts:
Talon01 · 31/10/2022 07:09

Just to add I think it's most likely that group of men wanting a woman in their 20s as they can probably get the interest from them.

Kenny69 · 31/10/2022 07:26

ArcticSkewer · 30/10/2022 23:23

You can get good sex any time you want it, as a man if you are prepared to go online

Funny!

Men can get sex (coerced, paid for) any time they want but it's a whole ton more difficult to find a willing female partner for blokes. (unless you meant male partner? I admit that's really easy too)

Couldn't be easier for women. I can find a talented and willing sex partner, who I do not need to pay, any day of the week frankly, if that's what I want.

I don't know why women bother trying to get more out of it, men don't have more to offer really.

@ArcticSkewer it’s much much, easier than you think, there are plenty of websites around for women looking for NSA sex, some married , some not, a couple get regularly mentioned on this forum,
I have a marriage women I see who is in sexless marriage, but don’t want to leave, ( she got the idea from this forum), she is very nice & very discreet

Good sex with out the hassle of a relationship, or the female car-crash that is Tinder.

Twistiewistie · 31/10/2022 07:27

Talon01 · 31/10/2022 07:06

I didn't say that women are as bad as men. I think someone else mentioned something along those lines but even then it appears a lot of context was removed from the post to fit the narrative.

There are so many threads like this on here.

Where are all the good men?

OK so who do you engage with. Oh that group of men that all the research suggests get all the attention, and then you wonder why it doesn't work out...

Once again , you refer to some elusive ‘research’ that shows some group of men get all the attention ‘
please for the love of God show the research or stop making false claims

also I don’t ‘ engage ‘ with any men cited by any research . What I do is read , watch news and unfortunately know that men are by and large the ones who rape and murder women and not vice versa

if your going to claim that a group of men get all the attention Show it with evidential statistics

if your going to claim men arnt by far the ones committing harm against women show evidential statistics

Also learn that simply because some women won’t sit back and accept that bad dating experiences make women ‘as bad as men’ commiting physical doesn’t mean you get to say …. ‘ oh yeah there goes womens again clutching at straws bring up the old sexual harrasment , rape and murder again … femi nazis ‘

Twistiewistie · 31/10/2022 07:29

Talon01 · 31/10/2022 07:09

Just to add I think it's most likely that group of men wanting a woman in their 20s as they can probably get the interest from them.

Huh 🤔

Whatever you want to believe 😂

xPeaceX · 31/10/2022 07:45

Yeh having endured OLD for about 6 years on an off, any kind of narrative around women being 'as bad' usually translates to women won't date down like we are telling them to.. women won't accept their low value.

I did think about this a lot but I already knew my value online was low due to my age and being a single mother. I couldn't go any lower. I wasnt trying to get a rall, rich, handsome man! Just some you could visualise being somewhat attracted to, if they had a good character.

I think OLD is shit. Ditch it. You won't regret it. I met somebody in rl and we were together until covid hit. He had no agenda to make we devalue myself.

Relationships aren't like having a job.
You dont have to have a boyfriend any boyfriend until something better comes along. Be single.
Every woman who goes on line and accepts the narrative peddled only by men that because she is 44 with kids she cannot possibly hope to meet a man who can offer what she can offer will make the current situation worse.

Rinatinabina · 31/10/2022 07:57

I think the pool of decent blokes narrows in your 40’s. Most of them are probably happily settled down.

I also think you should try someone outside of your type.

SittingCat · 31/10/2022 08:10

@feindVicarInATutu

This is rubbish. [Snip] So there is no one size fits all .

I'm talking in generalities and trends. Yes, there are exceptions. That doesn't mean what I am saying is any less true. Roads are quiet at 5pm on Christmas day, that doesnt mean the statement 'roads get busy around 5pm' is untrue.

@Twistiewistie

your claiming a woman’s accomplishments make her less appealing

Didn't claim that at any point. That said, a womans accomplishments generally matter very little to men. This is why CEOs have an accomplished wife at home and end up knocking off the younger secretary who barely has 5 GCSEs.

If you want to claim that what you said is somehow not mysogynistic then you would have said that a man who had life together and IS financially successful would be in the same position but you didn’t , you compared a man who WASNT financially successful.

Misogynism is a hatred of women. It has very little to do with equality. I can state that the sexes aren't equal without being misogynistic. I can say that Football is a more skillful sport than Cricket (ie. unequal) without hating Cricket (or Football) or being prejudiced against either.

To be perfectly clear, a man in the same position (44, kids, financially successful) would have less problems attracting a mate than a woman would. Men care more about their partners age than women do.

There are plenty of women 40 plus without kids why specifiy late twenties :early thirties women . Do you thing youth is a woman’s primary asset or do you think womens life experience and other attributes are valuable ie see them as equals to men ?

Primary asset? No. But, the data is pretty clear on this. Men find early twenties women to be peak attractiveness. Men are primed to look for indicators of fertility. Biology doesn't respect your opinions, it just is.

I specified late twenties / early thirties because I acknowledge that such a man would also not be able to demand exactly what he wanted from the market due to his circumstances unless he was exceptional (Like Leo, obviously).

Your statement does sound mysogynistic because it implies women are more valuable at a younger age and that there accomplishments such as financial success mean nothing , whereas with men they mean they can ‘scorre’ a younger woman

I'm just describing the rules of the game. Women select for men who are physically fit, can acquire resources and have a, at least somewhat developed, set of social skills. Men select for beauty and fertility. Having what the other desires means you can demand something better in return.

What Nonsense all redpill talk

The redpill stuff does a pretty good job of describing the rules of the game and what both sexes are selecting for and the reasons for that. Where it and I diverge are on the correct responses to that information. The correct response for men, in my opinion, is to get to the gym, work hard to make yourself successful and develop some social skills to actually be a supportive and caring partner, not to call all women gold diggers and retreat in to the basement waiting for the sex robots. The incel community are pathetic because they whine about women selecting for height without realising that Jeff Bezos and/or Tom Holland dont seem to have a height issue.

The correct response for women is to realise that the standards they may have are literally unobtainable and shift to valuing potential as much as actuality; first time buyers getting a 'fixer-upper' rather than their 5 bedroom detached dream home. Again, female graduates generally want their partners to also be graduates, but there are only enough male graduates for 50% - 67% of them since female graduates outnumber men. However, I'm sure there are plenty of plumbers, builders and electricians that would make very good partners that these women are overlooking.

@frozendaisy

All this 40s men, 20s women. Load of balls. When I was a poor, graduated, 20s if a 35+ slimely rich dude wandered onto the dancefloor they were told to fuck right off because no matter how much fucking cash you have or gym sessions you do most (almost all) 40s men can't dance like a 20s.

In Wolf Of Wall Street, Di Caprio was 39, Robbie was 23. Not many people watched that movie and came away thinking 'How odd to match these two clearly age mismatched people on screen. Whoever thought a woman like Margot Robbie would go for a slimey rich dude like Leo in real life.' Not just them too. Bradley Cooper / Jennifer Lawrence 15 years apart. Chris Pratt / Jennifer Lawrence - 11 years. Not just portrayals too; Ryan Reynolds / Blake Lively 11 years - Jay Z / Beyonce 12. There are some pretty hilarious graphs around Hollywood, not just the age of Leo's current girlfriend chart, but also the age of female romantic leads opposite male romantic leads as the male ages.

In other news, check the attached image for desirability of the different sexes by age.

Don't you think it's odd if a 44 year old man hasn't, but wants kids, had them by then?

Depends. People are starting families later, mainly for what I think are economic reasons. There was a march against childcare costs at the weekend in addition to the ridiculous house, rent, energy and transport prices. Data shows that age gaps in relationships are bigger on average in poorer countries, primarily because the pragmatic ability to acquire resources is more important in such countries and it takes longer for men to become financially stable.

@Xaviera

Dating doesn’t begin and end with what you have on paper. Chemistry is key to any match. And that isn’t quantifiable on paper.

I completely agree. I think if women actually gave half these men a chance rather than evaluating them against an unrealistic tick list, they would end up in very fulfilling relationships. That's how things used to be; you met someone locally and evaluated them face to face. Now you can swipe right and get your attention from someone who ticks all your boxes. Of course, the guy that ticks your boxes is also ticking most other womens boxes and because of that has no intention of committing to you. Which leads to everyone, apart from a select group of men at the top and an even smaller number of women at the top of the tree getting what they want.

Its worth making it explicitly clear that successful attractive men are doing very, very well out of the current dating market conditions. All eyes on you and feminists telling women they can sleep around in their twenties with no repercussions means access to as much sex as you want and no necessity to commit. Unfortunately, its at everyone else's expense.

@ArcticSkewer

This was also my experience and every other woman I knew in my 20s. Who dated an old bloke? Noone I knew for sure! Some poor bint with zero self esteem and no career options, maybe, but I didn't hang out with those types either.

My experience has been the opposite of yours. A family member is an ex athlete, now businessman, multi-millionnaire who now lives in Dubai. He was with his childhood sweetheart until 30, then divorced her to marry a model. When he hit his early forties, he divorced her and married a beautiful 24 year old Law graduate from a very good (UK) university. That's hardly a woman with no self esteem and no career options.

I've seen many male friends and family members 'trade in' partners many times during my life. Its rarely for an older version.

@KettrickenSmiled

Yeah, The reason is that good men value good women for more than being "stunningly attractive".

Women can be both stunningly attractive and plenty of other things too. These traits aren't mutually exclusive.

But if a man is in demand from many women, and therefore has choice, why would he not select the woman who is 'stunningly attractive' AND sweet, kind, supportive etc...

@PickledRat

Well, that’s a given. Over 90% of the prison population is male. Any woman OLD has to be aware that it is a risk to meet an unknown man and take sensible precautions.

There's actually a very small difference in disagreeableness etc between men and women on average. Way under one standard deviation if I remember correctly. Almost negligible.

However, the way overlapping normal distributions work is that small differences in the mean will produce outsized results at the tails since we are looking at proportional representation of the relative areas under the curve. So, its basic statistics to say that (1) men are only marginally more disagreeable than women on average and (2) because of 1, we expect the vast majority of violent outliers (rapists, murderers etc) to be men. Hence why you have 90% of the prison population being male.

However, (2) is not evidence that the mean difference has to be substantial. It isn't. Think of it like this, mean are on average about 5% taller than women, but go and get the 100 tallest people in the world and I guarantee that the vast majority will be male.

@Twistiewistie

lol that quite funny . Would you like to present you ‘research ‘ that you claim … don’t just say it . Show it with data from actually science and people who study such things

Above is your science. Maths actually. I have an MSc in Statistics.

@ArcticSkewer

I don't know why women bother trying to get more out of it, men don't have more to offer really.

Misandrist. Imagine the reaction if a man posted the reverse of that.

I don't think thats a commonly held opinion judging by many of these responses.

@Xaviera

This thread has become ridiculous with certain posters suggesting that the OP should be happy with someone drunk dialing her because she’s in her 40s.

Absolutely not the contention at all. The opposite in fact. I would be interested for OP to come back and comment further.

So fed up and think I give up on men
ArcticSkewer · 31/10/2022 08:12

Kenny69 · 31/10/2022 07:26

@ArcticSkewer it’s much much, easier than you think, there are plenty of websites around for women looking for NSA sex, some married , some not, a couple get regularly mentioned on this forum,
I have a marriage women I see who is in sexless marriage, but don’t want to leave, ( she got the idea from this forum), she is very nice & very discreet

Good sex with out the hassle of a relationship, or the female car-crash that is Tinder.

Those will be the same websites I use. I can 100% assure you that it is far easier for a woman. I'm not saying it's not possible for a man, not at all, but I can literally get good sex every single day if I wanted. Men have less options. Tbh it's great being female, unless you are looking for a permanent relationship with a man. Which is why I advise a mindset change.

TheForests · 31/10/2022 08:17

Well I get what Sittingcat is saying. My friend is a single mum living in a small flat that she rents. She says she won't go out with someone who doesn't own a house, yet she doesn't

Twistiewistie · 31/10/2022 08:23

@SittingCat
‘The redpill stuff does a pretty good job of describing the rules of the game and what both sexes are selecting for and the reasons for that.’

excuse me for not reading your novellla … yawn but from the snippet I caught this bit made me wonder who on earth you hang out with …obviously not quality men

I’m sorry that’s your reality but it’s certainly not

‘mine ..

’Above is your science. Maths actually. I have an MSc in Statistics.’

sure you do mate🙄. Yet strangely …still….no….actual…..statistics…

LemonDrop22 · 31/10/2022 08:24

A mid to late forties man, somewhat economically successful, intelligent (graduate at least shall we say), somewhat physically fit and well presented - sound about right? Such a person could fairly easily be attracting late twenties / early thirties women without kids.

What makes you think mid to late 40s men want women without kids?

Women without kids in their 20s and 30s almost always want kids. That means he will have to, if he already has kids (very likely/ have to start the whole process again, and many men I know found the process, especially earliest years, stressful, demanding, actually quite unbearable. I know men who've gone straight for a vasectomy after two kids so they never have to go though it again, I know ken who say straight they will never have more kids or return the baby stage, I know men who picked a woman with kids already .. because they were both in the sane boat and -again - they didn't want to have kids from scratch again. Many men are well aware of the financial implications for their existing kids in this very expensive country.

You make your point like a prejudiced simpleminded red piller/mgtow/Incel.

You have no concept of real practicalities and worries for men.

Twistiewistie · 31/10/2022 08:28

@SittingCat
I don't know why women bother trying to get more out of it, men don't have more to offer really.

Misandrist. Imagine the reaction if a man posted the reverse of that.

I don't think thats a commonly held opinion judging by many of these responses.

yet by your own admission womens accomplishments don’t mean much to men … and tell women they have to accept ‘fixer uppers ‘
wth… but if that ain’t mysogyny I don’t know what is

LemonDrop22 · 31/10/2022 08:33

Many many men with kids already (which is most mid to late 40 somethings) do not want more kids, and they know a woman without any of child bearing age will want them; so they go for women who also already have at least one child.

That is the case with my partner's attractive, professional, home owning friend. He's married a single Mum of an older child.

That is the case with my sister's friend, who's married a handsome, well off divorcé with almost grown up kids ... She was a single Mum of one almost grown up girl.

And I could list many others.

You don't live in the real world.

Most men don't get to mid to late 40s without having kids of their own. Many of them (well over half in my experience) do not want to start again with babies, it's their worst nightmare. They are sensible & straight enough not to get with a childless woman and expect her not to have her own and not have an "accident".

I got talking to a woman who married her divorcee, father of several kids (she was a single Mum of one) and he actually had a vasectomy behind her back. She was extremely upset but has stayed with him so far because they'd blended their families etc.

IneedanewTV · 31/10/2022 08:38

SittingCat · 30/10/2022 07:00

You are 44 and occupying your time with work, hobbies & children. You're not rich, but getting by. Think about the man that you would ideally want to attract and ask yourself, what do you offer that man? I imagine the answer is very little and so the crux of the problem is your demands are far higher than the offer you are presenting.

A mid to late forties man, somewhat economically successful, intelligent (graduate at least shall we say), somewhat physically fit and well presented - sound about right? Such a person could fairly easily be attracting late twenties / early thirties women without kids.

Oh give it a rest.

LemonDrop22 · 31/10/2022 08:42

The redpill stuff does a pretty good job of describing the rules of the game and what both sexes are selecting for and the reasons for that.’

I knew you were a red piller before even reading that.

You don't live in the real world.

As I've pointed out above .... You don't even take into account basic, common facts about mid to late 40s men .... Like that most are fathers already. And that a large percentage do not want to be new fathers again for many varied reasons. And therefore many will not go for childless women.

In your world, every mid to late 40s men are 100 pc James Bonds (he was 35 just for accuracy) who have no kids and are selecting their younger, baggage free, childless, fertile mate.

Not in the real world, son.

Kenny69 · 31/10/2022 08:49

@ArcticSkewer , it really is much easier than might think, I don’t want a new partner ever night, I keep fit, well groomed, well dressed & expect the same.
there are lots of women who seem love/ attention / sex starved within their relationships/ marriage / are single and they often post on this very forum.

all I do is show them some love / attention / respect / listen to them, it’s really straightforward,

LemonDrop22 · 31/10/2022 08:53

On the flip side, you also completely lack understanding of the motivations and practicalities for late 20s and early 30s women who haven't got kids yet.

In terms of the mating game; first off, most mid to late 40s men are already attached. Of the unattached mid to late 40s men, again - most have kids already.

Unless that man is exceptionally well off (who h most people aren't) the woman is looking at sharing his resources for her kids with his existing kids. That's a lot less resources.
That's also all the complications and challenges of step mother hood and blended families.

It is not an attractive prospect for many women.

And those late 20s and early 30s women also have some opportunities with late 20s, early 30s (and mid to late 30s men). They are not limited to mid to late 40s men .......get it??!!!

So why would they choose the more complicated, less financially beneficial set up?

I can tell you, I didn't. I walked away from a relationship with an older man with kids and had none with a man 3 yrs younger with no kids before.

Your theories depend on assumptions that late 20s and early 30s women have no opportunities with men their own age..... But they do.

The mid to late 40 man (most likely with kids of his own) is, in your head, very financially secure and attractive ..... But your average man isn't rich and able to give a second family a fantastic standard of living.

LemonDrop22 · 31/10/2022 08:54

*I can tell you, I didn't. I walked away from a relationship with an older man with kids and had mine with a man 3 yrs younger with no kids before.

LemonDrop22 · 31/10/2022 08:57

(that was all @SittingCat)

As I said, you don't live in the real world re the circumstances, motivations etc of either mid 40s men or late 20s/early 30s women.

LemonDrop22 · 31/10/2022 09:11

Also worth pointing out that there's want people want in terns of a mate, and there's what they actually get.

Most people settle with partners around their age.

Red pillers are fond of things like "most men being attracted to/most wanting 25 yr old women"

I'd like to see you give stats on how many men over 40 marry or cohabit with 25 yr old women ...... The only way most men get significantly you get women is buying them (either on a permanent basis with wealth, or on a temporary basis as "escorts" and "sugar babies").

And most men are not wealthy.

So certain men can be attracted to and want what they want, but most don't get it.

Worth pointing out is that most men have married and had kids with someone around their own age by their 30s anyway.
Only red pillers believe the world is populated by single 40 plus men taking their pick of 20 somethings.

TheForests · 31/10/2022 09:12

What is a red piller please?

LemonDrop22 · 31/10/2022 09:13

The only man I have met who interests me treats me as someone to ring on the way home when pissed.

I guess you better meet more men then.

Expand and vary your activities continually.

And go NC with Mr pissed phone call.

LemonDrop22 · 31/10/2022 09:15

TheForests · 31/10/2022 09:12

What is a red piller please?

It's from the matrix.

The red pill is reality.

Red pillers believe they understand reality re relationships and the mating game.

They believe all women are "hyoergamous".

They believe men are divided into alpha males and beta males.

They believe womens only worth is their fertility and youth and looks.

They believe men should not partipate in marriage at all or only with a "loyal" dependant virgin or near virgin etc.

TheForests · 31/10/2022 09:19

Thank you

LemonDrop22 · 31/10/2022 09:20

They believe men are always screwed over in divorces and ignore the fact that plenty of women get screwed over .... Depending on who has the most resources... But in their world women never gave any resources and are always the lower earner and word never have brought any financial resources into the marriage ... So that never happens and it's always men who are screwed over.

They think women being given CM, alimony, divorce settlements, contraception, right to vote etc are all mistakes.

They believe womens are responsible for the downfall of society and always have been.

They believe single mothers are the lowest form of life on earth.

They believe women are immoral, irresponsible, childish, low intellect, foolish, emotional and can be trusted to make good decisions about anything.

Etc etc etc

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