Think I've really hurt DH's feelings

[ArDi]

Married 22 years, 2 teenage children, all chugging along as things do. We are affectionate with one another. A couple of years ago we bought our "dream home" with a huge mortgage, and whilst it is an amazing place to live, it has come at a price.

DH is in a senior corporate role and is under a huge amount of pressure at work, but I think it's mostly pressure he puts on himself. Due to our decision for me to be a SAHM for a number of years, my earnings are 1/10 of his, and he is feeling very burdened by the financial responsibility he has - particularly in the present economic climate.

He's putting on weight, he's grumpier with the children, he's got huge impostor syndrome at work. He's gone from being energetic and motivated to being driven and distracted. I don't know how to help him address this, as the need to keep this house (and thus his job) at all costs, is like a mountain he can't see around.

I have said that even though I love this place, we'd be just as happy in a smaller house (we could probably sell up and move into somewhere smaller, mortgage free). But he doesn't want to. This is his dream - he just won't see the toll it's taking on the family. Last night I told him how unhappy I am becoming. He's not who he used to be. He has no time for just us. I was ill in bed last week and he "couldn't" even take five minutes off work to make me a sandwich for lunch. I told him that if somebody asked me to prove he loved me, I would not be able to point to anything he had done recently. I also said he's always been a bit like it - putting work before me - and recited a couple of examples from the past.

He became very quiet and put his head in his hands and said "I don't know what to say".

I felt bad - like I was kicking a man when he's down, but I can see the way he is working is bad for him, as well as for our relationship and the family in general. I just don't know what I can do to help him.

I feel that if I keep supporting him I am "enabling" the obsessive working, but if I don't support him, he will crash and burn. Is the only option to leave him to it until he has a heart attack?

Any wisdom, Mumsnet? And don't tell me to leave him - that's not happening.

May I ask, @ArDi, did the DC have a meaningful say in the house move to the 'dream house', and how old were they when it happened?

It sounds like you do a lot of driving them around, rather than them finishing school and walking or cycling places with friends. I'm from 'rural' so it brings back memories.

It’s not just the corporate job

it’s that corporate world 🌎 we all exist in with the messaging

big house
new car
new phone
holidays
new kitchen
good school
best tech
best clothes

he will work with people who buy into this shit too , and he works such long hours it’s non stop

to change mindset isn’t easy

don’t get me wrong I have a corporate job and I do it for one reason only
to pay the mortgage and support kids

but I hate it !!

jesus if I could pay my mortgage off I’d be outta there

Quite @MarieIVanArkleStinks the infantilising of men and treating them as if they have no agency, no decision making capabilities, no ability to care for themselves or any sort of voice and yet these same men manage to hold down highly paid, extremely high level jobs - incredible.

Two words: Private Equity.

ArDi

😂
yes . Brutal
but as long as I make those fuckers money and margin

OP I have been where you are , to some extent I still am . So many of these posters really don’t understand the way the career path of these corporate jobs work. In dh case it’s either the high pressure big job or nothing at his age , there’s no way that he could just downgrade easily it doesn’t work that way , but there are ways to change how it’s framed.

Maybe he can't easily downgrade but if the pressure of servicing a huge mortgage was removed it would relieve a huge amount of stress.

Moving to a smaller mortgage free property closer to schools and other amenities would give the children and the OP more independence and freedom. A chunk of the money saved by not having to service a mortgage could be used in a plan for the future such as early retirement, far more options would open up if the husband was not hidebound by having to service this mortgage to keep the supposedly dream house, which doesn't sound that much of a dream for those living in it.

it’s that corporate world 🌎 we all exist in with the messaging
big house
new car
new phone
holidays
new kitchen
good school
best tech
best clothes

All very shallow, keeping up with the Joneses stuff.

I know some seriously wealthy people one of the reasons they are is that that don't buy into all that guff.

Yes I agree but the OP needs to frame this as a positive thing and also not as yet another problem that needs solving because it sounds like he can’t see the wood for the trees .

Yes I agree but the OP needs to frame this as a positive thing and also not as yet another problem that needs solving because it sounds like he can’t see the wood for the trees .

Fair point and I agree with you @cyclamenqueen .

OP, I feel your situation is quite like mine and my husband's. He's a partner in a MC law firm and earns literally 20x what I do, despite my earning a good salary. I work part time and do everything connected with the house and children. Pre-kids I earned the same as he did then and, if we hadn't had children, I'd have had a career like his. We made a joint decision for me a SAHM for a while then go PT- two people doing 20 hour days is very hard to make work with a family. I can see why you talk about your sacrifices.

That said, I think the way you've raised your feelings with your husband lacked empathy. The thing about not making a cup of tea- you know as well as I do that this is about the demands of the job, not whether or not he loves you. I'm sure he'd love to be pottering about making you tea but the life plan which presumably you both decided on together precludes that. Likewise I think your definition of acts of love is a bizarre sort of hair-splitting: he is working all hours towards what he thought was a joint goal.

I know lots of men in PE. Without exception, they work extreme hours and it has a deleterious effect on family life- cancelled holidays, cancelled social engagements, missing important occasions, stress etc etc. In none of these cases does the man not care- they would love to be more present- but the job which pays for all these holidays etc requires absolute commitment. It's shit but true. There simply isn't an option to work 80% as hard for 80% of the money.

So yes, I feel sorry for your husband. It sounds as if you are both struggling with the current set up and I imagine for him it feels like he's giving everything he can and you've just moved the goal posts. I also feel sorry for you- I think you've been very unfair on this occasion but it sounds as if this was caused by a build up of resentment and frustration.

You need to have a proper conversation about the future.

• Are there any viable alternatives to his working as hard as he is now?
• What role could he do that would give him career satisfaction and enough money, and yet enable him to be more present? (Because in all of this, I imagine you'd be unimpressed if he announced he was packing it all up and wanted to move to Orkney and become a carpenter- apologies if that is not true.)
• Is he as committed to the big house etc as you think he is or is that somewhere a compromise could be found?
• What's the endgame? Could he realistically make enough to stop work very early? Would he consider that?
• I can see why you can't suddenly earn enough to take the pressure off- I'm in the same boat myself. But might your resentment be less if you had a role or project that you found more rewarding in other ways?

I hope you can find a way through.

Sorry- meant to add, I think any discussion will be more productive if you can talk positively- not "you don't love me because you didn't do X" but "I love you and I wish I could spend more time with you".

So many of these posters really don’t understand the way the career path of these corporate jobs work.

Bit patronising. I think so many of us do and that is why people like me constantly reiterate to anyone considering being a SAHP that it may not be a good idea to do it for more than a year.
I have been the main breadwinner for more years than i care to mention in the past, and it is a huge huge burden (it wasn't really in our control and my DH is fantastic so not an issue here)

Men, in particular but not exclusively, often have their whole identity wrapped up in their job, and see taking a step back or down as a very negative thing. Same goes for downsizing a house at times other than retirement. It is a complex issue. But the fact that this has been going on for so long means there is a huge amount of inertia to overcome.

What i tell people - if they ever ask, or if they seem unsure - is that when you marry, the things you plan/want/need aren't carved in stone and it is a good idea to reevaluate things, especially just before the Big Things. So before you marry, you'll discuss finances, short-, mid- and long-term plans. How many children you want. SAHP situation. Savings. big purchasesetc etc. but then you need to keep revisiting things. I was going to be a SAHM for the absolute minimum amount of time (4-6 months) but circs dictated otherwise. We rescheduled our plans for a 2nd DC accordingly, and when i went back to work really went into how we'd handle schools, homework, extra curricular activities etc. (not everything went to plan, but we were good at winging it when necessary, gritting teeth when necessary and changing things up when we could/had to)

Understanding yourself and your own motivations as well as your life-partner and their motivations and wishes is really really important, especially at times like this.

@Brefugee sorry I didn’t mean to sound patronising but I do think some of the posters really don’t understand, obviously you do but it is a fairly rarified life . Time poverty is a massive issue and the money really doesn’t compensate once you are over a certain level.

I wouldn’t have been a SAHM but there was no way we could both have the big job and have a family. People say things like ‘no one needs to work those hours’ but when everyone works those hours it’s hard to see that and anyway in this job you do have to work those hours, it’s part of the job description.

thanks, @cyclamenqueen - i actually agree with you. One thing that really shocked me about adult life with children was the fact that you need to fit 30 hours into 24.

And also agree that with the hours, (or with many other things) when that is your life, and those around you have similar lives, it is difficult to see how harmful it is, and really difficult to see how to make changes.

Which is why places like MN can be a really good resource.

@ArDi I take back my estimates of earnings 🤣

I’m in the same industry and it’s better than it used to be, but it’s incredibly demanding and support is still relatively limited. I know a lot of people (male and female) in your husband’s situation. Try having the conversation again, but focus less on the impact on you. If you haven’t walked a mile in his shoes the reality is you have no idea what it’s like. I imagine he knows he’s been stressed and a bit shit (I certainly know when I am), but my DH doesn’t have a go at me about it, he finds ways to make my life a little bit easier and brings back my smile with support, not criticism.

The whole of male self esteem is based around a continuous hopefully upwards trajectory of employment.

Society doesn't cope well with men that don't follow this line.

Dropping earnings is painful and damaging for men generally, and really hard to come back from.

Feel free to say this is bollocks, of course, but to use current parlance this is my lived experience.

I'm sure he'd love to be pottering about making you tea

He sounds like he’s gotten a bit lost in the rhythm, @ArDi. I think you were right to say something, and to point out that earning money for your family (as you both do) is only one of several ways a partner and parent should be contributing to the family home. He needs some balance, as you have noticed. I do think because he’s so lost in the rhythm, you are going to have to make the move. Why don’t you start looking at houses, find something you like, take it to him, put in an offer… etc! With as much involvement from him as you can (but sounds a little like you’ll have to lead the way here until he’s ready to come on board). Then when you’ve moved there’s no need for his income and he will feel better about dropping some hours. You’re a grown up, this is your life, home, and family, and you can decide to move everyone to a smaller house — obviously you won’t go if he really doesn’t want to, but someone has to be the leader and he sounds like he is kind of used to being this particular work-shaped-cog in the machine of your shared life! You are a good partner and you see he would be much happier with an actual life. Figuri out your next move is extra work that he should be doing his 50% of and that you would be taking on for the good of the whole family — but it sounds like, if you have time for it, your changed life together may be well worth the effort for all involved!

The numbers don't stack up. Unless he is earning £250k per year. If the OP is working 2 jobs for less than £25k a year (1 tenth) then she should retrain. There are heaps of options.

Having said that IF the OP'S partner is on £250k per year I have zero sympathy in any event.

This is exactly why women shouldn't give themselves in their entirety to their families. Sacrificing skills, pension/super, in favour of short term comfort is ALWAYS at the expense of something.

Ultimately if women want to be treated equally we should live accordingly.

There is no reason, IMO to work part time once your children are in secondary school. That is a luxury and has a price - be it money, comfort, staying at home and losing your skills just isn't worth it IMO. I feel sorry for the stereotyped main breadwinner. A huge amount of personal sacrifice and expectation goes into keeping a family afloat.

I have always worked and contributed to the family finances. DH and I have shared the parenting and finances equally. This works because there is balance.

@ArDi you are very right to be worried. PE broke my friend. He was running and leading one of their investments and ended up having a breakdown. He was an extremely capable Global business leader. He was dead at 50.

Of course he earns more than that, did you not read her update.

Sorry, that was rather brutal. However PE have no concern about people. X

FFS, Basil, she’s worried about him. And she was ill and couldn’t make herself lunch.

Reported as your post is just a personal attack.

@GADDay we speak the truth and so many young women don't want to hear it. But this is something i will bang on about until the day i die.

This is exactly why women shouldn't give themselves in their entirety to their families. Sacrificing skills, pension/super, in favour of short term comfort is ALWAYS at the expense of something.

Doing whatever it is a woman wants to do is entirely her decision right up until there are other affected people in the mix, be that a partner or children. Especially children. And then it must become a well thought out, well planned decision that is not fixed in stone. Ideally at least she should do a periodical audit of where she is, where she wants to be, how she's getting there, is she happy, is it working... and sometimes difficult discussions have to be had, and compromises have to be made. They should not always be made to their own detriment by the least "powerful" financially.