In laws doing my head in, midlife crisis and what to do next?

[Onceuponawhileago]

Hello good people of Mumsnet. Long term user - namechanged.

I'm M 49 and my wife is 50. Together 23 years, two kids 15 and 12.
I come from a different background than my wife, mine is working class, history of sexual abuse and subsequent addiction and alcohol issues. I went through many years of counselling and addiction suport and got better.

My wife comes from a wealthy background- in our relationship we are pretty good together. We share children stuff, I do most of the cleaning, house organising and any ongoing repairs etc as its an old house. My wife is not really into cleaning and more messy than me, I figure that cleanliness matters to me so I do it for me rather than have arguments about it. Cannot get a cleaner - too remote.

Years ago we started living close to her parents- their house is on a farm, ours on the farm too and so we see them most days. I would say her parents are essentially kind but not very empthatic, tone deaf sometimes and oblivious to poorer people and especially my kind of background. Often they just 'dont understand' why we dont have a cleaner or repair the house etc. Its because we are on average salaries living in a house that requires more upkeep than we can afford. My wife will inherit a lot of money so in a way she feels she should stay close to her parents and also its her family home and will inherit farm etc.

Her parents farm the land but badly so lots of stuff falling down etc. They want full contol of their farm and are gettting more difficult as they age so wont accept suggestions of getting in help on the farm even though they have millions in the bank and could easily pay for a nicer life.

I'm not money motivated, happy in my job, grew up with very little.

I am really worn down by constantly having in laws in my life- every day, thinking about how we will manage as they get older, how we will get them to accept help etc.

My wife just trudges on, is happy to just be as is.
I have a fantasy of a smaller house, no in laws, less cleaning and an easier, smaller and peaceful life.

I dont think I want to seperate- thats a big price to pay for a simple life plus impact on kids. Because I grew up with very little I have no attachment to this place or to wealth.

Happy for advice.

So does all this mean that even once the farm and money is in her hands she will expect things to continue exactly as they are now? You doing all the work and things going to hell because she won’t pay to fix anything?

Well they are wealthy and its inherited wealth so her mother has never really worked. farmed but ts not full time farming. Her dad does work but neither need to. I think she is overwhelmed by the whole inheritance, money thing, finds it hard to strategically plot a way through. At home though its pretty simple - I admin nearly everything, I'm the one that organised the houise refurb, managed budgets, get better insurance rates etc. So when cleaning etc comes up as an issue it obviously lights my fire because it really is an organisation question - just do a fucking list of things that have to be done on Saturday including cleaning - an hour on a Saturday would do it. If you do that then life gets easier as we dont have arguments to prompt massive cleaning fits....
If she did that and got the kids to do their bit then we all have a reason to keep the house clean.
I dont argue now as it gets exactly like it always did - that leads to contempt and thats the absolute death knell for a relationship.
She needs to hear this from a third party and actively work on improving how we communicate and contribute to keeping our house clean. If it were a smaller house Id probably just roll my eyes and do it but its too big.

No. I absolutely have nothing to do with the farm as it is. I do nothing. i think she would spend money actually to get stuff done but her mother wont. Even my kids are coppoed on enough to see how shit the farm is so they wont want to do it.

Agree with you Re: third party.

I really meant do the PIL work hard at farming? FIL certainly sounds like he does.

Can you not get the kids take take out the garbage, unload the dishwasher, etc?

Hi OP, I would find it stifling too. I’m guessing you know you are going to become carers to your in-laws (who will rule and never leave the farm no matter what state of health). You do have my sympathy. I agree moving away does not break any bond to her family. The majority of adults do it! Even if it was for an agreed timeframe, say 5-10 years. If money isn’t an issue, take the ponies with you. I would suggest go enjoy some family life together living elsewhere and any time spent with the in-laws will be quality.

FIL does because MIL insists on a farm and livestock. Completely stupid. They can rent farm and work in their garden etc. He goes along grudgingly but gets wound up when the chips are down and work is hard.

Kids can do those things yes, if both parents are on the same page and saying the same thing, if there is one parent creating mess with kids and the other following after them cleaning its more difficult for kids to grasp the fact that they are actually responsible too. So thats little things - like if you use a bowl put it in the dishwasher, if the bin is full empty it, if its Saturday change your bed linen - none of this happens really. Bin is full since Friday as I am not emptying, have not hoovered kitchen since Thursday so its a rolling mass of doghair and assorted dirt etc etc.

I did have an issue with shit being left everywhere on tables, kitchen etc, my solution was to dump it all in a huge wicker basket in the utility room figuring that once they started to miss stuff they would start to put stuff away, today that basket is a pile of unsorted shit spilling onto the floor. I have now started dumping from this pile to bin as I figure its not high value enough to mind then it must be junk.

I remember as a kid that I got a book and a painting kit for christmas and it blew my mind as I had so little, my kids get loads of stuff and it lies around. Nice kids but without her on board they won't do it. Its just another thing for me to do - follow up them and her - two lots of complaints. I just change the duvet myself, its easier.

So she treats you like her father is treated by her mother?

Tries, Except I push back (mostly unsuccessfully). I also have a much more independent personal life which keeps me grounded - I do stuff for myself, go hiking, garden visits, swimming, yoga, go to gigs on my own. Mostly stuff I do is on my own so actually sometimes its like I'm seperated already. FIL goes everywhere with my MIL, no personal time. Quietly compliant. My MIL laughs and says she is bossy but I think overinvolved and overbearing.

I must also say that a lot of our friends have this crappy relationship model, growing apart, kid stress, elderly parents, probably no sex etc etc so it not like she is seeing a great dynamic in play that we would like to model our relationship on. The bar is low..

Hi OP - I think sadly what you have described is not that uncommon in farming circles. I have seen the unwilllingness to get help in, or spend money, for daughters (usually) to stay on the farm with their ageing parents and become responsible for them too and become their carers For families to live in each other's pockets. I have also seen extremely wealthy (landowning) people live in filthy houses that are falling down around them.

I would absolutely hate it and you have my absolute sympathies. But what to do about it? Well I think you need to make it absolutely clear to your wife that things cannot go on the way they are and insist on couple counselling. Meantime, your home is your home and not your in-laws. If your DW wants to see her parents she goes to them - this has to be non-negotiable. You need to sit down with your DW and children and say what needs to be done in the house and come up with a rota. It's not acceptable for your wants and needs to be so utterly disregarded by your DW. And yes, I would look at moving.

Being the dogsbody & living with your in laws for the last 2 decades would be an unsatisfactory setup for most

Cajoling your partner into cleaning is obviously not working.

Recommend discussing the cleaning again & this time be calm but serious.

I would use phrases like:

"Things cannot go on this way any longer"

"I have reached the end of my emotional rope"

"I feel really disrespected & that you don't care about what matters to me"

"Not taking pride in our home is a sign of a serious character flaw to me"

"Cleaning is our responsibility & not just an option"

"If this doesn't change right now I will need to start considering other options"

If she doesn't listen after this then you have your answer as to how much she actually cares for you.

As for her family's farm, try to emotionally disengage.

Let their farm go to wreck & ruin.

When they talk about the farm just make the same sounds like "hmmm....right....wow" etc & do not engage further with them

Be honest are you a "wet" kind of character?

Because doing all the housework & letting others dictate your life is pretty passive

Your wife is getting exactly what she wants out of life while you are left unsatisfied with life

Crying can be used a form of manipulation & a sign of petulance

Also in regards to crying:

It is a fallacy that people only cry when they are sad

People can cry when they angry, or frustrated

When selfish people are challenged on their behaviour or feel their comfort is threatened that can make them feel frustrated & angry

You are being played

IMO

I dont argue now as it gets exactly like it always did - that leads to contempt and thats the absolute death knell for a relationship.

You are right - but of course that leaves you very few options, i.e. live like a pig yourself, or be everyone's slave. Neither is a long-term solution. If you can't get her to wake up to how this recurring issue is corroding the goodwill between you, you will leave in the end. It's a shame but you can't do it for both of you.

Would she do couples counselling? I want to agree with your instinct that this can be sorted, though my own experience with a similar partner was that he derailed sessions mercilessly. Would she turn on the waterworks? Gaslight? My partner ended up coopting the counsellor on to his side and it turned into a bit of a gang bang tbh. I couldn't recommend that, although it did accelerate the decision-making process for me. But be careful what you wish for etc.

You said you're more of a 'thinker' than she is and I'm assuming you've done a lot of therapy in the past, given your addiction history. Do you feel you're on the same page in terms of self-awareness? You sound as though you have good insight into the dynamics at play in her family. I'm wondering whether she's still right at the start line. Does she even want to fix this? Or does she not realise there's a problem? Or think it's all just you being difficult?

OP, I've read the later messages and responses since the first post last night. It now sounds far worse than what you initially described. Which was bad enough. But a 50 year old woman should not be weeping like a little girl to avoid discussions. Something is badly wrong there. I'm no psychotherapist but I have done a lot of self-analysis in order to try and understand my own mistakes and flaws. I'd guess the weeping is a coping mechanism to avoid reality more so than avoiding cleaning. If she stops the conversation in its tracks when it starts with the tidemark in the bath, it's not going to lead to a discussion about her parents and all the possible horrors that the future holds. She is getting older too. Ten years on, she'll be 60. Her parents may well still be alive and expecting her to be their full-timer carer. Not something for her to look forward to either. So acting like a child is a kind of spell to ward off the evil day when she'll have to be an adult and deal with unpleasant stuff. The overflowing bins and dog's vomit are something else, though. That's treating you with more contempt than aristos did a Victorian skivvy. Maybe they all need some kind of shock therapy? Depending on where you are, funds, and how much time you can get off from your job, I'd down tools for a month and do something like go and walk the Camino de Santiago. Failing that, lots of beautiful long distance walks are all over the UK. Head off and do one for a long weekend asap. It will help clear your head and also show the family that you put a bit more value on your own life than simply being their dogsbody. Above all, though, your DW needs to have an adult conversation with you about both of your hopes, dreams, fears and realities. Maybe you need a counsellor to facilitate it, but it needs done. Oh, and you decide how Xmas is going to be this year. No ifs, ands or buts

You are right - but of course that leaves you very few options, i.e. live like a pig yourself, or be everyone's slave. Neither is a long-term solution. If you can't get her to wake up to how this recurring issue is corroding the goodwill between you, you will leave in the end. It's a shame but you can't do it for both of you.

Yup, really just a few options, continue to cajole, leave or accept.

Would she do couples counselling? I want to agree with your instinct that this can be sorted, though my own experience with a similar partner was that he derailed sessions mercilessly. Would she turn on the waterworks? Gaslight? My partner ended up coopting the counsellor on to his side and it turned into a bit of a gang bang tbh. I couldn't recommend that, although it did accelerate the decision-making process for me. But be careful what you wish for etc.

I think she would go to couples counselling. She did start individual counselling for herself at my suggestion (I'm conscious of how I dont want to be the person telling her who she is needs to change) to find out for herself why she acted in such a sabotaging manner. She left after a few sessions as she got upset at how she was being judged, felt awkward etc. If we do counselling and the outcome is that its not fixable well then thats her oportunity gone and my direction clear.

You said you're more of a 'thinker' than she is and I'm assuming you've done a lot of therapy in the past, given your addiction history. Do you feel you're on the same page in terms of self-awareness? You sound as though you have good insight into the dynamics at play in her family. I'm wondering whether she's still right at the start line. Does she even want to fix this? Or does she not realise there's a problem? Or think it's all just you being difficult?

I went to therapy because I was a survivor of sexual abuse and a very damaged family. I had serious addiction issues, mental health issues and was at times suicidal. I invested in years of work in myself and grew very comfortable at discussing and problem solving complex and emotionally difficult subjects. I learned to be pragmatic and to hold emotion out for scrutiny and also that we are all a product of our upbringing. I had a good insight into family dynamics. I'm now clean, sober and I think am a good parent to my kids. I'm aware my behaviour is really passive at times in resolving this but I try to always negotiate for a win win for everyone. So I guess I am lucky that the lived experience of CBT, EMDR etc has stayed with me. My therapist did say that this would change the dynamic of my relationship - getting well means the system around you has to change too. I have no animosity towards my wife but I am reaching the end of being OK with how things are. She does not look inside to see how she really feels (sometimes I envy that) but it means that when something challenging emotionally comes up she is left unable to process/ articulate or plan to address it. I probably come across as hyper focussed to her but thats because my role in our relationship is the person who makes the wheels go round.

So thats little things - like if you use a bowl put it in the dishwasher, if the bin is full empty it, if its Saturday change your bed linen - none of this happens really. Bin is full since Friday as I am not emptying, have not hoovered kitchen since Thursday so its a rolling mass of doghair and assorted dirt etc etc.

It sounds as though you are the only one who actually minds about these things. If they are all happy it is worth considering that one person's definition of a pig sty is another person's homely. Just a thought. You may not be able to get them all to think like you.

However, here we have a woman who cries when challenged, "trudges" though life - your word, and does not notice when the place is dirty or untidy. This sounds to me like a woman who is depressed.

Absolutely. If she said 'Look, I'm done with cleaning, it does not float my boat, lets both get stuck into doing the very basics and agree those and I will help you find a cleaner so we can both not worry about it' then that would be cool. I do overlook a lot of stuff - I'm not the clean police. I close a lot of doors and ignore a lot of stuff but toliets, bins and floors are at non negotiable for me.
If we have friends over for dinner she always says how stressful it is because we have to clean so much....

I'm not sure about depression. Shes very content because she does not worry about other stuff. There have been times when I have actually wondered is she not neuro typical as she finds it hard to stick to details etc. Its not nice from my end either. I nag and I feel upset, I discuss and I feel hopeful or I go silent and stay raging. None of these are great for anyone.

OP, there is so much going on here but in a nutshell, you are your wife’s dogsbody. This isn’t an equal relationship, you are put on constantly and are questioning this when in reality you should have told her this stops a long time ago.

In your shoes right now I would issue an ultimatum; couples counselling so she has to really hear you and respond or you leave. Counselling may work in that she sees things from your point of view and starts treating you better or, you may both decide the marriage is stagnant and can’t be improved in which case, you leave.

OP, you too are resilient and have survived all sort of horrors, you are an organiser and a ‘safe pair of hands’ but you are taken for granted. You need to now recognise your own worth and make moves to bring some happiness into your life. Believe me, you are worthy of it.

I agree with this. I really feel for you OP. You only have one life, and you're so much in the wrong one for you. I think your wife has some decisions to make as a compromise is long over due. And if none is forthcoming I think the above is sound advice.

My therapist did say that this would change the dynamic of my relationship - getting well means the system around you has to change too.

Thank you for this, which holds an important message for me. I'm just pinging it back, in the belief that it's worth repeating for you too, @Onceuponawhileago.

As if luck would have it we had a typical exchange at dinner time today. I present it here and will take on board absolutely all feedback.

One of the solutions to one of our issues is getting a cleaner - we both agree on this. As we live in a remote area these are hard to find. I have spent a few months watching facebook groups etc and calling cleaners to no avail. Last week I went to the local supermarket and found one who called off at the last moment because of travel distance. I was super lucky today when I mentioned needing a cleaner to a colleague who said her sister cleaned for local AirBnB's and had just lost a client. I got straight on to her and booked her for Wednesday for a trail run, agreed rate and said we could be flexible etc. All set up.

At dinner I told my wife we have a cleaner coming on Wed for a trial.
As we have an upstairs bedroom being refurbished last week (to make it easier to clean) there are old carpets, wood and paint buckets etc that need to go to the recycling centre. I dont drive a horsebox so I said to my wife could she get the horsebox over I could load it from the hall where the stuff is and she could go to recycling centre where there are guys who can unload (4 miles away). She said nothing so one of my kids ventured 'Mums pretty busy' still nothing from my wife. Once kids had left the table I outlined exactly what I said and asked for a response.

She said.
'I'm very busy. I'm not sure I can do it Tuesday'

I pointed out that actually I had done the legwork with all the cleaner search to date, got the carpenter, painter organised, got the sander for floor and left it back and moved all the furniture in addition to taking up all the carpet and getting it downstairs. Maybe her contribution could be bringing the waste to recycling so the floor is clear for the cleaner on Wednesday. I am working online with clients tomorrow but can load the horsebox.

Once I pointed out the above she said 'I'm sorry that I did not behave in the way you expected me to behave' .....

This sort of tactics infuriates me because she is immediately setting herself up as the wronged one, the passive one and the one who does not understand and me as the agressor.

She had a range of answers to choose from:

1. No
2. Yes, thats great, thanks for organising
3. I cant do it tomorrow but can do it xxxx
4. Negotiate with me to do it
5. Get someone else to do it (maybe the kids)

But her answer was silence, I have to decode that and in my rising frustration I have to then point out that no answer is infuriating as is her thanklessness for my work to date. So there you have it. Dinner nice and tense, she will come to me in an hour or so with a long winded, angry/ emotional reason why she behaved as she did and off we go on the magic roundabout.

I grew up in a house where I learned to read tension as a tiny kid and what was not to be said and this brings me right back.

No idea if I am at fault here? I tried to get our ducks in a row so we can get a frickin cleaner started and she presented me with another issue.

Thank you @AllNightDiner it is important eh?

My God. If it was a woman writing this, most of the responses on this thread would be so different.

Op, I really feel for you Apologies if I've missed it, but it's not at all leather the ILs actually think/fantasise is going to happen over the next 10-25 years. Can you outline it, or is I jus ...not discussed ?

What would the practicalities be of leaving and taking the kids with you? Is there somewhere close you could live? Not to say you SHOULD leave, but looking at how much or little it would require might be another way of thinking about things.

She sounds infuriating