In laws doing my head in, midlife crisis and what to do next?

[Onceuponawhileago]

Hello good people of Mumsnet. Long term user - namechanged.

I'm M 49 and my wife is 50. Together 23 years, two kids 15 and 12.
I come from a different background than my wife, mine is working class, history of sexual abuse and subsequent addiction and alcohol issues. I went through many years of counselling and addiction suport and got better.

My wife comes from a wealthy background- in our relationship we are pretty good together. We share children stuff, I do most of the cleaning, house organising and any ongoing repairs etc as its an old house. My wife is not really into cleaning and more messy than me, I figure that cleanliness matters to me so I do it for me rather than have arguments about it. Cannot get a cleaner - too remote.

Years ago we started living close to her parents- their house is on a farm, ours on the farm too and so we see them most days. I would say her parents are essentially kind but not very empthatic, tone deaf sometimes and oblivious to poorer people and especially my kind of background. Often they just 'dont understand' why we dont have a cleaner or repair the house etc. Its because we are on average salaries living in a house that requires more upkeep than we can afford. My wife will inherit a lot of money so in a way she feels she should stay close to her parents and also its her family home and will inherit farm etc.

Her parents farm the land but badly so lots of stuff falling down etc. They want full contol of their farm and are gettting more difficult as they age so wont accept suggestions of getting in help on the farm even though they have millions in the bank and could easily pay for a nicer life.

I'm not money motivated, happy in my job, grew up with very little.

I am really worn down by constantly having in laws in my life- every day, thinking about how we will manage as they get older, how we will get them to accept help etc.

My wife just trudges on, is happy to just be as is.
I have a fantasy of a smaller house, no in laws, less cleaning and an easier, smaller and peaceful life.

I dont think I want to seperate- thats a big price to pay for a simple life plus impact on kids. Because I grew up with very little I have no attachment to this place or to wealth.

Happy for advice.

Hi OP, if my parents were millionaires I'd wonder if you were my DH :)

I'm very slovenly and my DH does all the cleaning in our home (slightly different that I have some health stuff that leaves me very exhausted, plus small kids that take all the energy I do have).

He just has a different threshold to me for when it bothers him - I can live in a mess fairly comfortably and he just can't. So he 'snaps first' and does it all. I really appreciate it and really value him and what he does for us, so hopefully your DW does too? Does that help at all?

If your MIL has a cleaner, then you're not too remote - please employ them yourself too! Me and my DH get on a million times better when we have one, it's the best money we spend.

I also think you need to arrange for a set amount, maybe 6 months, of sessions with a couple's counsellor - to share some of this with your DW and get heard in a more meaningful way. She can't change who she is (nor can I) but she can mitigate the bits that affect you badly (e.g. she takes responsibility for organising and paying the cleaner). With a commitment to counselling she'll be forced to do better in how she responds to what you're saying.

I think with the your issue about farm finances/ PILs won't spend a penny to prevent tree damage/ sheep wrestling lunacy etc, it would likely be best for you and DW to get on the same page and present PILs and the financial advisor person with a practical plan. Could there to be some sort of 'management account' established which gives you and your DW access to a certain amount of PILs money to spend on maintenance and repairs, without needing PILs agreement? Sort of transitioning to the future in a limited and specific way that avoids the worst of their idiocy and gives you guys some power in the situation? Don't know if that sounds helpful, just an idea.

But in terms of just not seeing the PILs as often, that's very tough. Maybe you need a bolt hole somewhere for you to escape to? Little studio flat in the nearest city - you could say it's for work?

I certainly can understand wanting Xmas without the PILs and personally I'd be making plans right now to go away this year, just you and DW and the kids. We did a very cheap fly and flop to Morocco once and would really recommend! :) It should be "one for them, one for you", at a maximum - not just an infinite parade of miserable Xmas's stretching ahead of you...

A key part of the problem is that your PILs are behaving as though they are the core members of the family. (The farm and the inheritance give them leverage to do this. Your DW's guilt at her brother's death maybe stops her from having healthy boundaries with them to some degree). But the core family unit for your DW should be you, her, and your kids. You are being treated like a bit-part player in the story of their family - the reality should be that the PILs are bit-part players in the story of YOUR family. You deserve to have your needs considered, and indeed met.

I hope you'll find a way to improve things. Best of luck going forward.

I also noticed the 'prison' language as well. I mean I think you need to be honest why you have stayed so long there (as it was before children twenty-three years ago)- did they support you when you had your addiction problems, do you feel you 'owe' them, do you just love your wife and are prepared to be wherever she is? Did they help a lot when the children were little so it eased you as a family?

I think there's something holding you there, obviously love for your wife and worries about the impact on the kids, but beyond that. I think this could go either way- you might find fate takes a different course than you expect (you don't know that either parent will carry on indefinitely needing tonnes of care, if MIL dropped down one night for example). Or you will decide to chart your own fate and move nearby- your wife might actually come with you if she sees that she's losing her husband, that's more or less what I decided even though for me living with my parents was ideal.

All talk of different cleaning standards is a bit ridiculous to me, I mean who hoovers three times a year, or never empties the dishwasher, these are standard jobs, you can't just not empty the dishwasher or there would be no dishes within 24 hours! There's nothing extreme about requiring all family members to participate in the day to day/weekly activities of the house, no-one is asking them to do dusting or extra housework jobs that are a matter of preference.

@Mischance Thats a very timely post. If you imagine the farm we live on as a big square, our house is bang in the middle, PIL directly behind. To the far left corner there is a farm cottage, three bed, own entrance currently rented owned obviously by PIL. I brought this up as a 'next step' house - when kids are going to college we have this refurbished and ready to go, its on the farm, my wife can walk to her parents (3 mins) kids still have ponies etc if they still have by college time. We can rent our house which would pay for refurb, I get a smaller house, less cleanig, less costs and privacy. it was discussed and kind pushed down the road to discuss later. I think this is my ideal get out of jail card which keeps everyone happy. No idea how to approach tho.

*Thanks @hatinacat Thats useful. It is overwhelming as I feel that I am the lynchpin for everything.
I'm not sure what could make me feel better. See less of my inlaws? Maybe but they are literally at my back door, we share a garden, driveway etc so I see them daily. My MIL comes over daily. I cannot be in the garden weeding or pottering but she is there with questions and reminders of things to do.I would really only like to see her a few times a year.

We have decluttered pretty much - but the house is huge, old, lots of cleaning - I'm by no means OCD but basic cleaning like filling dishwasher, putting out bins, going to recycling centre, washing floors etc are all done by me. Its like my wife does not see it. The bathrooms could be left for months without it bothering her - really she is not affected by dirt.

My hobby is gardening but its in their garden and I see them then. I love hiking as I have to go away and have peace but it makes me feel like I am a loner as I do it on my own - not very family oriented.*

Gosh OP, I really feel for you. I think I can hear and understand exactly what you're saying and you seem very fair and reasonable.

Gardening is my hobby too. It's also my stress relief, my joy, critical to my mental health. Having to share that space would be tough for me - literally sharing, in that it is not mine, but also sharing in that others can intrude into it at will.

I hear you on the money thing too. Except, I'm where your wife is: set inherit down the line. I'm dragged into financial conversations and involved in decisions and told how this is important because 'it's for the family'. I fantasise about being free of that. Long for a simple uncomplicated stress free life. The whole managing money thing for me is just stressful. No doubt, people will think I'm spoilt or something, but I'd genuinely happily step back from it so totally understand what you're saying, and I believe you.

And in the cleaning: I do it all too. I get so angry. It's resulted in me telling my husband that I will not cook for the family, if the kitchen is left in a mess. If I have to spend an hour cleaning before I start cooking, by the time I start I'm raging and hate the task. This means he has to do all the cooking. It has made a big difference. He definitely makes more of an effort. But only in the kitchen.

When I crack, the angry conversations I have with him are about respect. That his mess disrespects me as a person; that his chaos affects my mental health and the lack of effort tells me he doesn't care that it makes me miserable; that expecting me to do it all shows me he doesn't value me. If he respected me, he'd try. And that he's showing our children he doesn't respect me. And would he like our daughter to grow up to live with a man who was comfortable with her being a servant? He gets this. He is capable of shame, but it slips. When it does, a short sharp very clear 'I'm going out and I want your stuff sorted and this space cleaned before I get back' works too. I don't stick around for the chat.

And the in-laws. Aaargh. My father is like this. I think he thinks if he stops doing stuff it's an admission he's old. He also thinks he'll die if he stops working. Needs that sense of purpose. Except my sister has the burden of this. What she's done is refuse to get involved helping anymore. He does it himself, or he pays someone else. He knows why she's doing that. It's a bit of a shock to him, and not what he'd like, but he is aware she's had enough. The most she will do is help him find someone to help. It's up to him to use the help, or not. But she is no longer there to do anything. If I were you, I'd tell my wife that is the extent of my involvement going forwards. If she wants to do all the stuff, her choice, but conversations or about in the family home. If they slip and break a hip while lugging logs, it's their fault, not yours. You have no responsibility for their free will choices. If your broadband gets knocked out, work from Starbucks until your wife sorts it out.

Commiserations. I think the allotment idea is a good one. I'd jump at that. Build a really nice 'shed' and work from there. Sleep from there too, if need be. Tell your wife you're not coming home until the house is cleaned.

Bold fail. Sorry.

@Mischance For sure, room for compromise is fine. Downstairs we have 8 rooms and upstairs 8 more. So I only touch the surface really. All I am asking is hoover the stairs once a week, two bathrooms once over, empty bins, hoover hall & kitchen and a wash of floors. Not hard stuff. Chnge bed linen etc.

For example on Friday I noticed both compost and bin in kitchen were full, full to the brim, they are still like that today because I did not empty them - away yesterday. If I leave it another day teabags etc will be left in the sink. Dog puked earlier in kitchen, that was left for me to do. Thats where we are at.

Sorry but that sounds completely untenable. Who on earth leaves dog vomit for someone else to clean ?
Do you use all the rooms? In the short term could you not just dust sheet some and lock them up ?
Your halfway house idea sounds like a bit of an improvement, but the more you write the more it sounds like your W is the fundamental issue.

Well I think you should just grab it by the balls .... if that is what you see as a good solution. Don't let them (?wife and iLs?) "push it down the road" - make it central to the discussion. Be clear with your wife that this is the compromise you favour and you want her backing with this, because you are offering her a good chance for her to meet both your needs. Just tell everyone that this is your plan and that you want to keep this at the forefront of discussions. Don't let them defer this - maybe this is the moment to be assertive about what you needs are; and that you are determined about this as the best option for the future - say you want this planning to start now.

You seem to be at a crosswords and I do not think the answer lies ion being walked all over. Either you get this out there, or you go on in this impasse.

Would you rent this smaller property from the IL's, and let yours (which I presume you bought from the ILs). You need to plan ahead to deal with the sitting tenant. Every time it is delayed you accumulate time until it can happen.

Honestly, it sounds as though you are giving in to the tears, and not asserting your needs. The solution you favour has a lot of merits - it just needs you to find the courage to make it happen.

But do not expect your wife's attitude to the cleaning to change - my OH and I never saw eye to eye on this, but just leaving him to do what he wished worked for us. The difference was that he did not resent being the one who was concerned about cleanliness. PS - I can't remember EVER cleaning the stairs!!

On another tack; do you think that when you discuss all this stuff with your wife it gets back to the in-laws?

I think it is the best solution. Not sure how my wife would see it now as opposed to a few years down the road. I dont think cleaning would be an issue, if we did a refurb it would be pretty small and self contained and thus easy to clean.
Cost wise better too for energy etc.

I dont think my wife tells it back to them, besides I dont really care if they did hear it. I'm done with meeting everyones needs.

I think there's a big difference between not being fussed about dust on the stairs and leaving dog vomit for your partner to clean up, stepping over it on your way. It actually speaks to fundamental contempt for your partner. That's what I told my husband when he continually didn't clean up the toilet with skid marks on after he'd been- it's like saying 'you, my wife', should clean up my shit', it's incredibly disrespectful to the shit-cleaner! He did see, after quite a few rows, that leaving me to literally to do the shit-work was like saying that's ok, that's your role in this house- and that's not ok to do that to someone you profess to love. No-one likes cleaning toilets or dog vomit, but leaving it to the other person, always and without exception is really disrespectful to them, because no-one would 'choose' to do those jobs and it's not a question of standards, it's a question of hygiene.

I live in a rural area where this set up happens a lot. and invariably the "outsider" isnt happy. The place never feels like their home - it feels like their partners home or parents home and they just feel a bit like a lodger. It is the cause of lots of relationship break ups. You need some sort of ground rules so that you dont feel like either you are on call all of the time or that you are living in their pockets. friends of mine have instigated things like only speaking a couple of times a week. only meeting up a couple of times a week etc. at the moment though your life is effectively on hold. you are waiting for them to die so that you can inheirit and that could be 20/30 years - a quarter of your life wasted living somewhere you really dont like. what if they go into care? their house could be sold then and your inheiritance look a lot less attractive. You need to set some clear goals with some clear timescales and more importantly a very clear idea of what you will do if the timescales arent met. put it down in writing and give it to your wife to read and consider. if you dont sort this out your life is going to feel like one great big long regret.

OP, have a read through this www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288

It's written from the point of view of a man who didn't step up, so it's the opposite way around to you, however I think it's a really good illustration of a situation like yours, explaining that it's not about the things going into the dishwasher, it's about the lack of respect and appreciation.

You wife crying if you try to discuss everything is an avoidance tactic. If you get a chance to sit down together- perhaps on holiday if you can sort out some time together-I’d insist on discussing everything, regardless of the tears.

Be upfront and tell her that tears won’t resolve this situation, you need to come up with some solutions.

I think it sounds hellish.... wtf are you going to do with a run down broken farm in the future anyway...

Sounds like a complete albatross around your neck...

She may have attachments but why should that dictate your life......

I would definitely disengage from them and also be clear to your wife where your boundaries are..

..maybe counselling is a good idea as she may be stuck in a dynamic wiyh her parents.. whats the plan if they need care in the future....

I'm glad that you're now getting the kind of responses you deserve, OP. This really does sound miserable. I for one, would hate the lack of privacy and never being left alone in my own garden.

What happens if you simply refuse to help the inlaws with whatever it is that they demand that you do? If you say "No I can't do that, you'll need to get someone in to help" what happens?

Also you say you have a job you're happy with. Do you work from home? Can you use your job as an excuse for not having time to help with whatever the farm issue is? Do you have your own family that you can insist you spend Christmas with this year? 23 years without any choice over this is plain wrong.

And yes, I think you need couples counselling so that your wife understands that at the moment you are basically a chattell to her and her family. None of them seem to see you as a person with choices and rights of your own

I think that it can be about lack of respect - but my OH never expressed that view and did what he felt he needed to do.

If a phantom dog had vomited on the floor and he did not want to do it, he would have asked me to. Ask her to clean it up.

I too live rurally and have seen similar situations several times - it's a bit like the Archers! It is very hard to be the incomer in these tight-knit families.

Your wife may not want to make these plans now; but you need to tell her that she must, because it will take time, and also because if you make it an accepted part of the agenda now, it will be massively easier to make it happen at the appropriate moment.

Trying to meet everyone's needs is a hiding to nothing unless you include yourself in the "everyone."

OP I really feel for you, what a suffocating position to find yourself in.

This sounds just awful and I really don’t understand the posts calling you selfish or unreasonable. Despite the amount of space you live in this sounds like a very claustrophobic situation which really limits your life. You have no space of your own and everyone seems to see you as a servant or handyman, constantly on call and with no needs of your own and no right to make any decisions.

The dreadful PILs won’t change so all you can do is reduce your own direct contact with them as much as possible. It must be really miserable having MIL in your face every day even in your own garden. You don’t owe them unpaid farm labour or help with their house - if your wife wants to do that, let her, but you have every right to say no, no more.

I agree with PPs that the problem is your wife just as much as your ILs. She is clearly very entangled with them. Her distress when you try to discuss all this might be because despite being emotionally attached to them she can see what a mess this all is, and feels conflicted and unable to see a way forward. I can see her staying attached to this crumbling farm for the rest of her life when her parents are gone and that really would not be good for her or you.

It will be painful but you will just have to put your foot down, get her to go to counselling with you, and not just map out a future in terms of where you will live, but get to the bottom of why she allows her parents to dictate your lives. And yes, tell her that for once you WILL go away for this Christmas as a family. If she insists on having another miserable time on the family farm with her cranky parents, that will be very telling.

@Onceuponawhileago Can you tell us some of the good things about your wife? Why you love her? What good qualities she brings to your marriage and your life together?

Based on this thread alone, she sounds like a dysfunctional child, but it's bound to be more complicated than that. There must be reasons you want to stay with her - or is it just about being around for your kids?

Sure.
My wife is resilient, she lost her brother and her former partner within a year of each other (the gravity of this is not lost on me and maybe its why she won't engage with me on some aspects of our relationship - too afraid, too scarred)

She is kind - she sees the best in people.

She does not let stuff bother her ( apart from cleaning situation this is a quality I admire) I would say she picks & chooses her battles.

She is a great cook, good mum and gives our kids lots of freedom.

She is not super warm, reserved moreso but is always there for me and has seen me through some pretty hard times.

I'm very much more open, more amenable to change and a 'thinker' wheras she would not really do deep thinking. We are quite different in that respect.

Do you feel like she married you (someone from a working class background) intending that you take care of her, the kids, the house, the farm and her parents?

I find it ironic that they won’t spend money on basic things but think you should hire a cleaner.

Even if you can’t get your wife to do anything, make the kids help. They will be just like her if they are allowed to continue like this. And recognize that her tears are manipulation. I promise she is not more upset and disturbed than you are during these conversations.

I don't know really. She certainly moved in circles where she could marry someone wealthy. Her parents are odd. Lots of money but really struggle to be generous in the past. More generous now but I think thats on advice of their financial person who is pointing out they can't take it with them.( I still remember them charging us for the use of timber in our stove one winter, even though they had two barns of it and my MIL earnestly telling me she did not think I was a 'golddigger'- that was around the same time she walked into our house to get car keys at 7am and met me fully naked on the corridor as I went to the bathroom...)

They are kinda saying the 'farm is for the grandkids' but I find that strange because a) who knows what will happen, my kids could just move to Tokyo or somewhere b) it may not be possible from a tax point of view c) it has to go to my wife first and thats her choice from then on what to do with it. I actually get to influence that to some extent too so the smart thing would be to get me involved as opposed to pushing me away.

Her crying works perfectly - it primes me to leave it and her to go full hysterics and then promise to change. The more I hear that the more I realise its not me that has to change. I could at this point just cash in and leave but I think fundamentally this is resolvable with a good therapist.

'The farm is for the grandkids' is a complete red herring here, unless they are so wealthy they will be able to fund care for both of them (extraordinarily expensive if they need residential) and then of course your wife and your care, and so on. It's really unclear what would be left after all that.

Do you and your wife own your property? It could be quite complex legally if not and you divorce...

Yes I agree - I used the farm example as to how my MIL thinks. She wants to control all outcomes. For her money is to be saved and passed on and our duty is to do that with minimum spend. I think money is security but also you get one go at life so you also have a nice time. A nice time does not mean luxury holidays but it does mean a nice bottle of wine or a trip away for the kids etc etc. Even god forbid pay someone to mow the lawn or strim the fields of nettles.

She cannot control what happens to the farm in any way at all. Once given its gone. I agree re care costs - nobody knows.

We do own property together, joint mortgage.

Are her parents hard working like you? It sounds like it. And it sounds like they indulged her and now she found someone to do similar.

Next time she cries, do something different than what you normally do. For example, walk away completely, maybe get in the car and leave. What would she do if you didn’t play your role by the script?

She’s getting exactly the reaction out of you she wants, so continues to use this mechanism. The only likely way for things to change is for you to change the way you handle her.