In laws doing my head in, midlife crisis and what to do next?

[Onceuponawhileago]

Hello good people of Mumsnet. Long term user - namechanged.

I'm M 49 and my wife is 50. Together 23 years, two kids 15 and 12.
I come from a different background than my wife, mine is working class, history of sexual abuse and subsequent addiction and alcohol issues. I went through many years of counselling and addiction suport and got better.

My wife comes from a wealthy background- in our relationship we are pretty good together. We share children stuff, I do most of the cleaning, house organising and any ongoing repairs etc as its an old house. My wife is not really into cleaning and more messy than me, I figure that cleanliness matters to me so I do it for me rather than have arguments about it. Cannot get a cleaner - too remote.

Years ago we started living close to her parents- their house is on a farm, ours on the farm too and so we see them most days. I would say her parents are essentially kind but not very empthatic, tone deaf sometimes and oblivious to poorer people and especially my kind of background. Often they just 'dont understand' why we dont have a cleaner or repair the house etc. Its because we are on average salaries living in a house that requires more upkeep than we can afford. My wife will inherit a lot of money so in a way she feels she should stay close to her parents and also its her family home and will inherit farm etc.

Her parents farm the land but badly so lots of stuff falling down etc. They want full contol of their farm and are gettting more difficult as they age so wont accept suggestions of getting in help on the farm even though they have millions in the bank and could easily pay for a nicer life.

I'm not money motivated, happy in my job, grew up with very little.

I am really worn down by constantly having in laws in my life- every day, thinking about how we will manage as they get older, how we will get them to accept help etc.

My wife just trudges on, is happy to just be as is.
I have a fantasy of a smaller house, no in laws, less cleaning and an easier, smaller and peaceful life.

I dont think I want to seperate- thats a big price to pay for a simple life plus impact on kids. Because I grew up with very little I have no attachment to this place or to wealth.

Happy for advice.

It is true she is busy but I was asking for when she could do it as opposed to insisting on a time. The avoidance is there for sure. Im not sure why.
Maybe she silently hates me, does not agree with refurbishment, is too busy, does not know what yo say etc. Not sure, I thought most people would say yes, no, ok or renegotiate.

Sorry yes thats what I meant. All of us head off for a few days.

Both my kids ride ponies competitively. So one gone on Saturday, one gone Sunday , most weekends from 7am till 6ish. So lots of free time at home for me. I so travel to the near ones and we do try to do stuff on the days they are not competing. I cant stop them.competing - its their big thing and its my wifes social circle. My worry is that I end up doing my own thing all the time.

Have got a cleaner starting this week and have said that we only do main rooms, others are closed.

Not going to dinner- they would not like that. Im literally across the yard. What would I say? ' Hey I cant be arsed going'? I usually go and sit there until its over.

I am interested in the fact that your child stood up for your wife. I do think this is telling. They are watching a dynamic between their parents where their father holds their mother in contempt. This is not healthy for them or her or you.

I hear that you are fed up and exasperated, but you do come across as having opted for the hard-done-by husband role. I am beginning to think you need to cut her a bit of slack - she is being punished for your, entirely understandable, exasperation at living on top of your in-laws and having no say in your future.

I know that it is annoying that she does not engage with you in your efforts to get her to share your standards - but she is entitled to be herself; to have her own standards. It must be difficult for her to hear you moaning about what she does not do all the time. She switches off when it all starts. She deserves better than that. And so do you. You sounds as though you are sinking into being a person you do not want to be. This can happen in relationships and the key is to stop, put the brakes on.

You need to clear off for a while - break the pattern of slatternly wife/hard done by husband and strike out on your own for a bit. Rent somewhere/live with a friend, go on your walks, clean your space to your standards, free yourself from the oppressing in-laws and leave her be. This relationship is so unhealthy. It sounds as though she and the children would muddle along happily with their horses and their chosen lifestyle without the carping from the side lines.

I cannot help wondering what your wife's thread might be saying. Fault is never one-sided. You are married to who you are married to and the idea that we can or should try to change our partners is a fallacy. Subtle changes happen in both when two people get together, but fundamentally we are who we are and that is who we marry.

Her family seem to share her muddle through attitude to life and it is no wonder she clings to what she knows when she feels undermined for who she is.

You can do something about this - you can take action; action that might make the in-laws take seriously the fact that you want change - it might make them more open to plans for the cottage when the time is right. As long as you both just tick along in your chosen roles then everyone will be miserable.

If you (understandably) do not like what you have got, then make change that involves you making decisions, rather than making criticisms, taking action rather than apportioning blame.

'I'm sorry that I did not behave in the way you expected me to behave'

This phrase and your child’s response makes me think there is more going on here. I wonder, what happens when you are angry? Because these two things make it seem like they are tip-toeing around you and trying not to set you off.

I agree - it does sound as though they are tiptoeing round the OP. I am sure he does not want that or like that, which is why I suggested he should take action to break this cycle.

Yes I did pause for breath when you posted about your exchange yesterday.

So you've got a cleaner, brilliant- cause for celebrating. Sounds like there is a lot to clean. Your DW is not house proud, but you deliberately engineered it so she needed to do something today for this activity, when actually it sounds like the cleaner would have more than enough to do in the rest of the house.

Whatever the reason the dynamics between you and DW sound absolutely toxic and it's interesting the way the DCs responded.

I don't know if it's salvageable, it sounds like your life is entirely separate from DW and the DC.

To be honest, I don't think your communication was good at all.

HER: I'm very busy. I'm not sure I can do it Tuesday'

I pointed out that actually I had done the legwork with all the cleaner search to date, got the carpenter, painter organised, got the sander for floor and left it back and moved all the furniture in addition to taking up all the carpet and getting it downstairs. Maybe her contribution could be bringing the waste to recycling so the floor is clear for the cleaner on Wednesday. I am working online with clients tomorrow but can load the horsebox.

Instead of passive aggressively listing what you'd done, why did you not say "ah, okay. How can we manage this then? The stuff needs to be out of the way. Any ideas?"

You've said that yes, she genuinely is busy that day, so why do the petulant "but I've done x, y and z" thing, instead of inviting ideas to get round the problem?

When even the lousy horses come above you in the pecking order, it's definitely time to make changes. Does it matter if the in-laws wouldn't like it if you didn't go to dinner? Maybe some bluntness is called for. Something along the lines of ''I see more than enough of you as it is. And to be frank, it's doing my head in.'' This might bring about the conversation that you all need to have

It sounds very selfish of them. I would hate that op. But if your wife won’t talk then you maybe need to give her an ultimatum.

One of my DDs was very into horses - we did not have any, nor the land or money to do so. Instead she used to go on holiday for a couple of weeks in the summer, where she and a gang of girls lived with a horsey lady and mucked up dung and trotted round the forest to their heart's content. I was horrified by the mess and chaos in the house - even with my slack standards!

DD came home on one occasion from there and said to me: "Mrs W is a proper mother - she goes to bed in her bra and jodhpurs!" It became a family joke of course, but this is how some farming/horsey families can be and is what your wife has been brought up with. And this is how she will be. This is who you married.

Clearly living on top of your in-laws to the extent that your garden is shared is not acceptable to you - I have sympathy with that. But your wife will find it hard to change a whole way of life, that your children share and like.

OK,

Thank you everyone for posts. All useful and I appreciate all the different views.
I had some time to talk to my wife earlier and without drilling into last nights conversation I said I was curious about our discussion last night and could we discuss again.

So, she said that I'm the one who is really good at key projects and being organised and asssesing all details, she is better at smaller but necessary things - thats true and a good observation.

She said when I ask a question like I did she feels judged and that I'm disapointed, she feels shame at not pulling her weight and so she goes silent.

Then they kids sense this and the mood drops and its awful.

So from that I guess I need to change how I ask a question and when. I need to be softer in my approach and approach from a 'how can we' as opposed to 'when will you' . Also realise that my strength is doing the bigger stuff and hers is the other stuff which is hugely important too.

I wont ask questions like this at dinner, because she feels shame she can't answer so for her it must feel like she cannot think rationally then theres an awkward silence. In my mind I'm thinking 'why can't she say yes, no or I dont know' but in her mind she is consumed by shame. I think this is actually how her parents are - you never really say what you are feeling so things are never awkward - then she marries me and I'm cut and dried, say what it is kind of person, partly because of who I am and partly because I learned this way of thinking in therapy. She prefers to chew things over.

I will talk to my kids and apologise for any distress they felt.

I think my wife comes from a quite controlled family and shuts down before I even see it and I interpret it as her ignoring me but she is not - she does not know what to say. Its not that she does not care, or does not see it as important - she just can't think on the spot.

Going forward:

We will discuss going to a counsellor to discuss communication.

I will not be so cut and dried in my questions and ask them at better times.

She will choose to say that she needs more time or put off discussion or that she wants to think about it. This is realy important as it gives her an out (which I must respect) so she can think about what she wants.

Not sure about cleaning - maybe the cleaner will do the majority and I can follow up or maybe cleaner will be enough. Some rooms we are not cleaning at all as they are never used. Its more important to me and if this works will remove a big part of our issues.

I will try to avoid her parents a little more. Build my own space.

Not sure about family time - both my kids ride and horses take a huge amount of time at weekends. Maybe I should travel more to see them and build in family times to do other things.

Christmas I think we could go away on 26th for a few days together and make this regular.

Long term we need to discuss house move and lay ground rules for parents. My wifes grandmother lived to nearly 100 so my MIL had over 20 years of caring for her in some way.

I don't think my wife is mean or controlling, I think she is an introvert who thinks things through much more slowly than me.

My job is as a business strategist so I am trained to see the bigger picture in lots of detail and I guess this is my way of looking at home life.

On thje horsebox - we agreed I'd load it, she would drop it of fand I would do a work thing for her that takes the pressure off today.

This is by no means better but I feel we are clearer a little and we have a plan. A counsellor will help us with ground rules maybe.

What does it look like long term? I think a lot of the issues are the same arguments and the same pattern of communication that results in tension so we both have to break that and I have to be aware that I am coming across as forceful when I don't mean to be. ( its not what you say Its how you say it)

Thats where we are at today. Does anyone want to add to this?
There were some great posts from all of you particularly the ones that asked me to look at how I was because I am at least 50% of the issue - two to tango.

That is a great post @Mischance Yes I agree and if you see my latest post lots of that is apparent. I think cleaner, plan for cottage, therapist and less in laws might make things much better. We do become different versions of who we want to be in relationships and as you say we need to put the brakes on every now and then and look.

I guess because a lot of the stuff I do or have done is a big push for me and it feels like pushing a rock up the hill so any help in the final lap is so welcome. Maybe when I ask I'm really pissed off and should ask earlier.

I did laugh at this post because that is the horsery world. I know someone who broke all her teeth out hunting and her MIL gave her money for new ones and she went and bought another horse....totally mental world. The dirt is another level in houses. My wife pre warns me if we have to go anywhere that it will be 'crusty'......

Your update about the horsey stuff was a bit of an eye opener for me. Just to recap: you live cheek by jowl with your inlaws, at some distance from anyone else or civilised life, and are expected to play a full role in sorting anything they need doing, plus spending a great deal of your leisure time with them too. Outside of work time, your wife devotes a lot of time to the ponies, which is also your kids' 'big thing'. Weekends are spent with one or other child competing, which your wife is happy to facilitate because it all ties in with her social life.

This picture you paint of being pushed to the periphery of your own life sounds miserable, but it can't have happened overnight. I feel that there must have been long years when you allowed the foundations for the current state of affairs to be laid, e.g. allowing her to choose how the kids would spend their leisure time without trying to counterbalance that with things you do too, or family time in a more general sense; and failing to speak up about the amount of time spent with her family. Do you think you've been unduly passive in the past, and now you've absolutely had enough and are trying to make changes that perhaps you may be coming across as aggressive?

Honestly, the more you update, the less I think you have a future together though. You just seem to want different things. Perhaps it's time to stop thinking in terms of whose 'fault' that is.

Sorry, cross posted with you. Sounds like you have a bit of a plan now anyway.

I think that I had severe anxiety, depression and panic as a result of trauma when my kids were small and maybe doing ponies gave my wife some semlance of outside life. It was not easy for either of us. Thing with horses is once you are competing you are constantly having to keep a horse at peak condition and compet off that. So there are no breaks. I can tell you every event thats happening in their life until October - its all planned. My kids love it. Maybe the trick is finding balance.

I also have to say this dynamic is common among our friends - there is always some unmet need/ tension/ in most relationships to some extent. Maybe its our age too? Kids getting older, the sleepness nights gone, trying to re-identify who we were post kids.

I also have to say this dynamic is common among our friends - there is always some unmet need/ tension/ in most relationships to some extent. Maybe its our age too? Kids getting older, the sleepness nights gone, trying to re-identify who we were post kids.

Yes, I would agree it's common. That doesn't make it inevitable though, and certainly not healthy long term. I suppose it's a matter of weighing up the contentment versus the misery. And perhaps committing to recalculating that at regular intervals. But if you're going to do that, you also need to think about what action you plan to take if the arithmetic stops working to your satisfaction, otherwise you just end up being a boiled frog, imo.

www.estherperel.com/blog/letters-from-esther-32-should-i-stay-or-should-i-go#:~:text=%E2%80%8DWhen%20I%20was%20twenty%2Dthree,when%20it's%20bad%2C%20it's%20horrible.

I agree with whoever said horsey people or those who live in the countryside with animals can (not always) live in houses which are really filthy- I think there's so much mud coming in and out, they just don't see it, add dog hair, horse smell and it just is never going to be the clean nice house that people who don't do those things will have- I have a friend with four kids and their house is by my standards (not even that high) absolutely minging, but they don't seem to see the dirt on the sofa, the doggy smell, dust bunnies, the whole thing is dingy beyond belief but they are happy and healthy within it so that's a lovely place to be!

Beyond that, I think it's a question of what you want and how much you love your wife and want to stay with her. My husband compromised on some big things, which country to live in, for me and he felt that compromise was worth it. I compromised less than him, I'm not a flexible person and for me, I would have simply refused to have lived the life he ideally would have wanted. It ultimately worked out fine for us for different reasons, but not everyone is equally flexible and often one person does get more of what they need.

I would be asking more questions (not on here but of yourself) about how much you love each other, how much time you spend together, what intimacy and connection you have, as that hasn't come up much at all and to me that's kind of the glue that holds the whole thing together especially when for most people their lives are a compromise.

I think this relationship could work into old age, your wife does appear to be listening to what you say, and I think you have taken the feedback on that she isn't a business project! The question is how can you increase your commitment and intimacy in the general sense, so you feel that lovely bond is worth the other things like putting up with the muck that comes with dogs and horses.

Perhaps I'm missing the point, but where there are major areas of incompatibility and one or both partners are miserable, I don't agree this is a healthy dynamic in an intimate relationship long-term. In fact, I think it's a fig-leaf for indecision. There's nothing wrong with indecison if you're not ready to make decisions, but as a long-term state of affairs it's damaging imo. The fact that a lot of people habitually swallow their negative feelings (literally, as food/alcohol/pills in a lot of cases, or just behaviourally) may indicate that relational ambivalence common, and in that sense 'normal', but that doesn't mean it's good for you (any of you, actually). Eventually, in my experience, it will affect your physical health. That's a trade off many people find acceptable if their inability to make a choice feels overwhelming, or - very commonly imo - if they decide to make a choice that's in effect a devil's pact, e.g. to stay with someone they don't respect for the material security they offer. You're unusual, OP, in that you've already realised some of the common motivators hold no attraction for you, so imo you sell yourself short when you look around at your friends and decide that their lives ought to be fine for you too.

It sounds as though most of your friends are 'couple friends' of a similar age and life stage to you and your wife. Are they actually your friends, or are they her friends, and her friends' partners? Do you have friends of your own? Surely not everyone is is a similar situation? What do your friends think about all of this? Do you have anyone to talk to about how you're feeling? Not a therapist, a mate, I mean.

So, I agree with you in the main. I believe two people bring their own family histories to a relationship and begin their own history. Everyone will have stuff from their own parents - how money, sex, religion, politics etc was discussed or not. There is always a 'point of view' so to speak.

I think a lot of relationships from what I see and from talking to friends (joint friends, single friends) follow a lot of what I'm experiencing. I am a little unusual for a guy I guess, I'm very interested in relationships and fascinated by dynamics both in work place or relationships. I'm interested in the 'what does that really mean' when I see stuff because everything means something.

Also going through therapy for trauma you learn to be very honest and so you can lay all your stuff on the table and see that you are an unpleasant person and for some of that there are reasons and for others you are just a selfish person. So therapy for me taught me ownership and as a result I'm able to unflinchingly look at myself and say whether I dropped the ball so I mostly own mistakes and failings.

Clearly my learning from this scenario is I communicate in a way (in difficult circumstances) that does not help my wife be the best person she could be and causes us further issues. I expect her to see things my way, immediately and actually she likes a more nuanced way of looking at things. I don't knowingly set out to undermine her but I realise that communication on my part can do that.

I think relationshios are imperfect and you accept trade offs - what they are and what you accept differ for everyone. I would not have an affair for example nor would I tolerate an infidelity on her part as I value loyalty. I would find no sex difficult - so when I read about sexless relationships I think 'Um, I'd be gone' - thats because I like sex and think its essential for a functioning relationship most of the time and I know that there are lots of relationships where thats not the case.

So there is powerplay and some people trade off happiness for security or hang on in there until kids are bigger or drink too much or go have an affair or go shopping etc. Some of my friends have left relationships because of these things but things have to get very bad usually.
Most have not learned to communicate so there is simmering unsaid stuff for a lot of couples my age - some of them will seperate because they cant resolve. I also think culturaly women find it hard to say what they want as they never get heard or find it hard to begin. One of the things I liked about my wife was that she had no hang ups about sex for example and that was new - she taught me about sexual pleasure when i had never really had that before.

I'm not motivated by common stuff - I dont care about money or assets or cars or salaries, personal growth is my thing and I guess thats because for so long, as a result of trauma, addiction etc I really could not be me. I turned the corner when I realised that I was as good a person as anyone else and I had work to do to get better. My best friends would say I am capable of seeing awful stuff and making it better and sticking with that like a terrier until it was fixed. Life is a journey for me and hopefully we get a partner that solves that map with you. Sometimes we are on a different page and need a check in. I have no idea will our relationship survive. There is imbalance but we do love each other but both contribute to problems with our own beliefs. Can we find the trick to co-operate and make it better? Hopefully. Longest answer in the history of mumsnet.

I have read all of this, probably attracted by the title "in laws doing my head in"
You don't mention any family of your own and I am going to take a guess that maybe there is none.

Having been alone since becoming an adult, I can say for myself that it is incredibly hard being "in" someone else's family - but being the outsider. I have found I want to do it less and less. When I was younger (30's lol) I thought we could all be adults together and have adult, sensible interactions but I did not realise the powerful family dynamic I had entered.

I have done a lot of work to process my experiences and there is a desire for things to be better, you know the abject failure of your own family and upbringing and you just want things to be better. Then it finally dawns on you - your spouse's family don't want to change, you are forcing them to confront stuff they don't want to - it's for you to fit into their world view - and your spouse is so enmeshed that they go along with it. My husband would say things that could have been directly said by his mother or father - no filter of his experience, almost as if he was a puppet. Who famously said "there were 3 people in the marriage", in my case and yours by the sound of it, 4 people.

The other thing that happens is that it becomes convenient if they see a problem at all, to see you as the problem. The unspoken thought is "what do you expect with her family and upbringing". They are intent on preserving their family dynamic and given the death of your wife's brother - even more so, it is vital for them to maintain their dynamic and not have the family system threatened.

In an ideal world a spouse would develop a healthy distance from their family of origin and form a new unit with their spouse and children whilst retaining a healthy connection with the parents. I have never been in the position to have to do that so I can't easily relate to that. Maybe like me you find it hard to understand the balancing act your wife has between 2 sets of people she loves.

I could write an essay but I will stop there, suffice to say:

get a cleaner, that is a no brainer to improve things;

stop going to dinner every time, go every other time, enough to maintain a reasonable connection at not too much cost to yourself;

be more open about your need for time and space. that is hard to do, both my husband and MiL do not make any effort to understand people who can't do this being together all the time - see my comment later on her description of me;

remember (as I try to) - they accepted you. I would be worried if my children brought home someone with my background;

Can you learn a little about horses? maybe the competitive stuff makes that a non starter, but they are beautiful animals and sharing some of that love with your wife and children can be no bad thing;

my children love my MiL (FiL) now deceased. My parents were incapable of putting us first, I have to try very hard and give myself a very good talking to to say my children come first and their time with her matters more than my feelings (even when she does describe me to my face as an "oddball");

as someone has said, do you have a close friend and not just a therapist - you need the warmth of just one person outside of this dynamic, one person for whom you are the priority;

t

Thanks @Monkeymoo99
Its tricky isn't it. So my own family - I am very low contact with. One of the things I went through in therapy was really how I brough the 'I'm worthless' narrative from my family into the world with awful results. My mum is very elderly and probably was depressed having me, very little connection, I never remember being hugged by her. One therapist asked me to bring a photo of me as a baby or a toddler to therapy so we could work on a particular piece of work. There are none. My family did not take any pictures of me. Thats my start.

I get that I'm a real challenge to my wifes family - I'm a different everything. They really hated me in the beginning - she had just lost her partner and suddenly here I was, addicted and all the rest. But life goes on and I fixed myself as best I could.
I realise I'm the kind of person who can nearly see around corners in terms of planning. Thats not their style at all. Its very polite, no discussion etc. Pragmatic. I'm a thrash stuff out kinda guy.

I realise more that I have to be more my own person and less in my in laws life. When i say no to my MIL on something its like an atomic bomb was let off - she cannot believe it. If I challenge her she shuts me down so I avoid. As she ages its easier as I have less to do with her and kids can go to her on their own.

Two different cultures for sure. This whole big long thread has really helped me clarify lots and hearing other similar experiences was also great.