Husband wanting to take kids on family holiday alone

[Thatgirlcat]

Hi guys,

myself and my husband are currently going through a separation. Previous to this we had booked a family holiday to the Philippines for 1 month in July this year. My husband hasn’t been home in 5 years and his family have never met our 2 children. We have split up since booking the holiday, but currently still live together, as we are waiting to sell our house. We both agreed that we would still take the kids on holiday together before the house sells and we divorce.

Recently my husband told me that I’m not coming with them, and that he will be “taking his children on holiday without me, as he doesn’t want me there around his family”. I’m devastated, as I really want to go and see me kids enjoy the holiday. I will never be able to take them away like this with all 4 of us again, so it’s really important for me. I don’t want to stop them from seeing their family, but at the same time I can’t sit back while they leave. I just don’t know what to do. Has anyone got any advice?

What is a “genuine risk?”

The Philippines has recently (Feb 2022) signed up to The Hague Convention. I’m not sure though if it has been completely ratified yet?

I believe that in the Philippines children under 7 are thought to belong primarily with the mother unless there are compelling reasons otherwise. This is in fact much more friendly to the mother than the UK seems to be. It may be of some comfort to OP if the worst happens and he is allowed to take them away for a month.

The fact that he says he's applied for a court order does suggest a line of thinking and adds substance to any concerns about his intentions.

You could find out about the court order procedure - surely one parent can't apply for a court order and it be granted without notification/service of papers and an opportunity for the other parent to express a view/attend a hearing.

OP, don’t spend on lawyers until the matter comes to court at his expense. In the event that it does come to court you can say that 2&4 is too young to be continents apart from their mother for a month (which is true even where you trust the father and know the in-laws).

You have control of the passports - good. So you are now going to face huge pressure but stick to your guns. Tell him to invite his relatives here.

He calls them ‘his’ kids and says he doesn’t want you around them. This is very alarming - do not sign that form and alert the passport office that there is a dispute over travel and that no new passports should be issued for the children. Get your trusted friend to keep them safe.
There is no way I would allow him to go away with them for one day let alone one month after what he has said.

THere is such a weird vibe on here that any man who wants to visit his family with his children is a monster who will abduct and kidnap children. You all watch too many horror movies or something. It is actually completely normal to visit your family and to bring your children. And when you live in another country, it is also normal for your kdis to travel with you to visit family. People do it every day around the globe. This trip was booked before they separated. This isn't some siminster master plan to take off with the children. You really think a mother or father should never be able to leave the country to visit family and bring their kids?

The length is an issue now but that was what was booked. They had already booked a month away. And I do think it is really odd to insist on accompanying someone who you have separated from. If this was a woman taking her kids to visit her parents and her ex was insisting on coming with them..people wouldn't tell her that she has no right to her children and that of course he needs to come and be with them and if she doesnt' want him with them and her family then he should take away the passports and refuse to allow her to visit family.

People seriously watch too much TV. In real life, visiting family is not some crazy insane out there idea that only psychopaths and kidnappers do. And most people don't bring their ex on their family visits.

If you take that vibe and tone into any conversation, of course there won't be a decent discussion. If my husband came at me like I was a crazed kidnapper for wanting to take my kids to see my parents or told me he will always be with me anywhere I go with the children...I would not engage in that discussion either and would be very pissed off. You dont' reach compromise by attacking people.

Its not in the childrens' interest to be separated from their mother for a month. No decent parent would enforce that on such young children. He is thinking of himself, not being a good father. I can understand him not wanting you there with his family if you are separating, but you've offered a fair and decent compromise by offering to stay elsewhere. If that's not good enough for him, he can go alone, although that would still be unfair on the children, to not see him for a month either, hopefully he would go alone for a shorter time. Perhaps his family can visit him here instead?

What's the betting that once he gets the children to the Phillipines, that's the last you'll ever see of them? Sounds to me like he's planning on taking the children away from you for good and I'd be extremely against this idea if I were in your position.

Who has legal custody of the children - is it you or your husband?

It is completely different scenario taking a 2 year old and a 4 years old away on a month-long holiday with both parents and taking then away from their mother for a month @Midlifemusings

I can't believe you're stupid enough to draw that equivalence so I can only conclude you're being disingenuous.

I'm really shocked that the legal bods on here think the court would sanction removing such young children from their mother's care for such a long period.

Absolutely nothing makes it sound this way.

They have legitimate issues to discuss about the trip - and they aren't the Hague convention and kidnapping.

@clymene I didn't say it was a good idea. They have lots of actual issues to work out - those issues are not the Hague convention and kidnapping and that she needs to lock up their passports and the children are never allowed out of the country.

Millions of people leave their home countries for work and opportunities in other places. There are over 12 million Filipinos who live outside the Philippines - you are going to be shocked to find that many of them travel back home to visit with their children. And even stay for longer visits because of the cost and distance of travel. Neither of those things are signs of a pending abduction.

The nanny of my friend has only been back to the Philippines to see her kids once in the six years I’ve known my friend. So I agree, from the little I know, it’s culturally acceptable there to leave your children and work on the other side of the world. If you have any doubt about his intentions please take care.
On your desire to holiday together - I do think it’s unreasonable to expect him to want to spend a month with you on holidays when you’ve told him you are leaving him.

It is culturally acceptable and done with consent. The Philippines is not abducting children from around the world and keeping them in villages with distant family without parental consent. Filipinos do not have a reputation for kidnapping children. A cultural practice that is different from your own doesn't make people criminals.

A month is a long time for little children to be away from their mother, so you're right to say no to that. He needs to shorten that down to a week, maybe two at most. But you are going to have to get used to not doing things together as a family any more. The children will have experiences with their father that you won't be a part of and vice versa.

God the low key racism on here is astounding .
It's called survival. Not "culturally acceptable."
Also the idea a philipino man would kidnap his kids because he doesn't want his ex who is trying to kick him out of his own house tngo on vacation with him is normal.
If he is mad at the implications it's because they are insulting. It because he is unhinged.

I get that it’s weird for us to be travelling together since we have separated, but I’m not going to “play happy families”. He told me the only reason he doesn’t want me there is because he wants time away from me. I totally understand this, however we have children together so in reality he can’t ever really get away from me. So to me his point is not really one of rationale, more he wants to get over me type of thing. For me I don’t really think it would be fair on the kids either way, hence why I gave him a compromise.

I want them to see his family and for him to see them also.I don’t really think he’s trying to kidnap them, but I’m not really too chuffed that they would be gone for so long and not knowing what’s going on. How are you going to tell your kids oh sorry mummy’s not coming? When they’ve been so excited to go for so long. The only time I have been away from them in their life is when I go to work. Maybe it’s weird for some people, but for me I want to go knowing what’s going on with them and knowing they are safe and well with me there.

What is your source for this fact you state that Filipino men are kidnappers? That Filipino men kidnapping their children is normal?

That is racist.

Look for the papertrail. I doubt he intends to return them home.

@Josette77 I am not kicking him out of our house? We still live together and I’m trying to do-parent with him the best that I can do. And I’m well aware we won’t be doing things as a family anymore, it’s just we boooked this trip together and told the kids already about it. I don’t really care if I go or don’t go, I’m just thinking about our children and how it will affect them.

But the reasons advanced on this thread are unlikely to persuade the court not to grant the order

In my experience, the primary function of court is to make decisions which are in the children's best interests. Who has been the primary carer, OP? It is never going to be regarded as being in the best interests of children of those very young ages to be away from their primary caregiver for any significant length of time.

That aside: in your position, Hell would freeze over before I let my children out of my sight even for a second. If they are at school/nursery, I would alert the staff to what's going on. I know you're a private person and don't want to be the subject of gossip, but this is too important. I wouldn't even want him to collect them from school/nursery in your shoes.

I don't know why you're so insistent on carrying on with the holiday at all. Probably because you're a nice person who's used to bending over backwards to accommodate everyone. You should cancel the holiday. If he wants to see his family, nothing is stopping him. If they want to see the children, they can come over here and do it.

You can't be entirely short of money if you've booked a month in the Philippines. You would be far better getting as much money back as you can, and spending it on a good lawyer. I know you'd like things to be amicable, but they are already anything but. You need to sort out a child arrangement order as soon as possible. You also need to get on with selling the house, as neither of you can throw the other out but you absolutely have to get on with separating properly and clearly.

The only time I have been away from them in their life is when I go to work. Maybe it’s weird for some people, but for me I want to go knowing what’s going on with them and knowing they are safe and well with me there.

This is the reality of separation, though. If he is a decent father he is going to have his children without you, you are going to see them less than you do now, and you will not know who they are with and what they are doing at all times. You can't insist on being included.

I don’t really think he’s trying to kidnap them,

He has already surprised you with a lot of his behaviour. If you read back over your posts on this thread you'll notice yourself - he's done a lot of things you thought he wouldn't do. Maybe you don't know him as well as you think.

It's really, really worrying that he's talking about lawyers and trying to bully you into signing documents. A reasonable person would respect your reluctance to be separated from your very young children for a month. If he's resorting to the law it suggests there's much more at stake for him than a holiday - who the hell escalates a family holiday into a legal battle?

Is there any chance that when you both planned and booked this trip he had the separation in mind all along?

Our posts crossed, @Thatgirlcat . A two year old will have absolutely no clue what it means if someone asks them if they're excited about spending a month in the Philippines. A four-year-old isn't going to understand very much more. At that age, they would be just as happy with a paddling pool in the garden and an ice cream as they would with a month away from home and their routine - and particularly away from one of their parents. To the two-year-old, you are likely still to be a part of them (if you see what I mean). Even if there's no kidnapping risk, you can't do that to a child of that age, and the child's father must surely know that it's not in the children's interests.

As for "I don't really think he's trying to kidnap them": I doubt that any mother whose children have been kidnapped by the father thought that it would happen.

Reunite - the charity for international parental abduction - has a guide on when to be concerned.

There's no nationality that makes a parent more likely to try this. There are countries which make it more likely for a parent to succeed, if they try this.

www.reunite.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Prev-Guide-EW-2020v2.pdf

4 weeks is too long, they are tiny.
Going with them and staying elsewhere when with family is a good compromise.
I know someone who they go on holiday with both divorced parents and stay in separate rooms or caravans and do Christmas together for the kids. It is possible. No one’s going to let him leave without you for 4 weeks!

@Midlifemusings @Josette77 I’m really not trying to infer that Philippino men are kidnappers at all, neither am I being racist. And I really am fully aware my friend’s nanny makes this massive sacrifice in order to support her extended family.
What I am is someone who needs to consider the worst case scenario when faced with big decisions.