AIBU Would you be worried about this friendship?

[Lucyofthemichealcar]

Background:
Married for 11 years and together for 17.
H very outgoing, fun loving and flirty but never had concerns. Similar personality to me, so a bit of flirty banter is fine so long as we both respect the line.
Since married neither or us go out as much and since kids deffo not.
Both of us have male and female friends. Being friendly with a woman doesn't bother me but the dynamic between these two has always seemed different but cannot put finger on it.

H and his work friend.
I would say she definitely fits into my H's 'type'. They teach together. They are in different departments so it does not sound as if they speak every day or every week but they do seem to catch up face to face at lunch or over messenger if it has been a few weeks. She goes back to the US every summer and as far as I know they go weeks then with no communication so they are not always in each others pockets but it seems in the school they are very much viewed as a pair, so get paired up to chaperone school events and over the years they have organised several trips together as they both say if they are stuck with colleagues for a week it needs to be someone they get on with and like and apparently because they trust each other to organise and not mess things up when carting around 50 odd teenagers. Looked at messages from her when I was in the throes of pregnant paranoia and the chat is friendly but mundane. Not even flirtatious. She asks after me and H about her partner. The tone is how he talks to all his other friends. We have had her round for dinner and she has also done the same and we have went for drinks together. All very nice and above board. Done the odd favour like making us a whole load of meals when our kitchen was getting renovated and doing a food shop when we had covid or helping with looking after cat when we were away but I just can't shake a feeling she does it all to look good to H. She is very American and brings round baking, goes all out at christmas and since I have known her has always given me and the kids gifts (all our birthdays are in Late Nov/Dec so they are birthday/xmas gifts). Her and H also always exchange birthday gifts but they are stupid cheap items as part of a running joke from work. She seems keen to be friends with me too and suggested going for a wine or doing a gym class but as I said something always seems off and never felt entirely comfortable around her in the 9 years her and H have been friendly.
She has a BF of 12 years but they have never married and don't cohabit which seems strange.

Why am I concerned?
Aside from being pregnant and crying at the drop of a hat, what has made me question it all is that three weeks ago my H stayed at her house overnight. She got a phonecall at work to say her mum had passed back in the states. Her partner was away on business and she had a meltdown at work. H brought her back to ours but she said she wanted to be at home, pack and get the first flight home. H took her back to her place. He came back after dropping her off and asked me if I minded him staying to keep an eye but i think he had pretty much made up his mind while I said yes or not. He stayed the night in her spare room and then drove her to the airport at 3am. At the time I did feel like she could have reChed out to other friends but i suppose if that was me I would be all over the place too. She and her BF came by a few days ago with a restaurant voucher for the two of us to say thank you for being there for us. We have two kids and I am seven months pregnant with our third. Is it hormones or should I be worried?

H sensed I wasn't okay when he came back after dropping her off and I said how I felt and he said there was and never had been anything between them that I could check through messages etc if it put my mind at ease but I don't know. Have asked friends in the past and they have said it is a bit of an unusal one but probably because as a society we generally are uspicious of male female friendships unless they have been sustained through childhood and adolescence.

AIBU?

Don't mean advice. I mean would you change careers or hours or move houses to suit a friend?

Getting at distinguishing why most people prioritise relationships over friendships.

I don’t think this scenario is in any way comparable. Moving across the country to take a new job doesn’t involve a third party or a friend, for starters. The only way in which it might at a stretch with some mental gymnastics be comparable is if OP’s family or friends lived somewhere across the country and the H was calling them meddling, interfering, “I wish they’d just bugger off”, sharing their personal correspondences and calling them attention seeking drama queens… etc

In that situation, if the H was doing the above, then yes, he would be being controlling! If they simply had a difference of opinion on whether to move away without any of the name calling, emotional blackmail and vitriol then that’s a totally different scenario. In that eventuality they’d either move, not move, move somewhere in between both their preferred locations or, if no compromise could be sought, separate.

I wouldn’t necessarily do that for a relationship either…

I still think it’s a non-comparison though because while you might not move house for a friend or whatever else you’re suggesting, the emotional connection of friendships can bring just as much to your life as relationships. They’re different but both important, I’m not sure what’s hard to understand about that

@TedMullins and who decides what's comparable, controlling, requires compromise or is acceptable?

TedMullins or the two people who've made a commitment to each other? I'm sorry you've had a controlling ex but I do think you are projecting and not looking at the nuance of this marriage. Bringing up ONE person in a long term marriage IS the same as being upset about your partner wanting to move house.

All things that impact marriage need to make both parties happy. That's compromise. And anyone who can't do that is doomed to fail because there will always be people and situations that upset one or the other. That's the price for getting into this arrangement, and not just staying single - you do have to think of someone else.

You can have an opinion but it is odd that you don't get a lot of people can compromise on friendships or work or house moves. In fact you don't even know if DH really prioritises friends over marriage - as he hasn't been put in this situation by OP.

I’m not just plucking controlling accusations out of thin air. I’m reading the OP’s increasingly nasty, vindictive posts and making a judgement based on the evidence freely available to read here.

I don’t think there is ever any justification for demanding your spouse ends a friendship just because you happen to have a jealous hatred of the person. That in itself is controlling behaviour! The only time it might be justifiable is if said friend had done something bad - which, by OP’s own admission, she has not!

I think some of you are hijacking my thread to peddle your own discussion.Please don't, this is to get advice on my problem, not provide a forum to disect your views on relationships.

I think her letter was out of order and unnecessary. It shows DH told her I didn't like her or suspected her which us a massive betrayal of my right as a wife to tell him things and expect him not tell someone especially the person it is about. It makes me wonder what else he has told her.

When I pulled him up on it. He said he had pulled out of all the things I demanded he did, he had withdrawn his interest on leading the trip next year but he could hardly just ignore his friend without a decent explanation.
He also said he didn't tell her anywhere near close to what I said because he would have been embarrassed to do so, because my behaviour and attitude towards her was ridiculous.
I demanded he tell me exactly what he said and apparently it was along the lines of:
With the baby being due so soon we aren't making any social plans. (Me) is feeling out of sorts at the moment, she is feeling unhappy about my friendships and spending time away from her and the kids.

Seems missus fucking wonderful then asked if she could do anything to help (ofcourse she bloody did, anything to make herself look good).

That us when DH said he didn't think that was the best idea as I was getting it into my head that something was going on between them and he didn't want me to get stressed or make the situation worse.

That is when SHE wrote me that note. I told DH if wad out of order and he said it probably wasn't one of her smarter ideas but the fuck else did I want or could she do to prove that she didn't like him or that he didn't like her. He then told me to get a fucking grip.

I told him if he ever spoke like that to me again and told me how or what I should feel especially when the kids were in the house and could over hear I would tell him to leave. He then told me, I wouldn't need to ask twice and that I needed to go speak to someone as I was being 'mental' and there was nothing more he could do to show me there was nothing going on.

I am now convinced he is gaslighting me and manipulating this situation, so I look like the bad one when it is his and her behaviour that has caused all this.

OP get help, you’re delusional. She has done nothing wrong and neither has your husband. Why are you convinced her gestures aren’t genuine when there is literally no evidence to support this? You’re going to push your husband away if you don’t get some perspective.

Some people need to remain single.

Some never learn the art of compromise and when confronted with problems will always revert to aserting they are being controlled.

Op needs to understand she is not being controlling, she is asking valid questions about one woman who has been a constant for nine years undermining her feelings of security.

Some question that and that's fine but some can see this marriage will not last until her husband takes her feelings into account.

Many marriages fail through lack of compromise.

He is effectively chancing his marriage for this friend, friends should not be that important.

Personally I would let her have him, he's clearly not worth fighting for.
It's his right to want someone who will accept his friendships without conditions and it's her right to end the marriage because she doesn't feel prioritised.

And it's even better for the ow, she gets her primary relationship and full access to op's husband whenever she needs and I have no doubt that if they broke up, this friend would not feel in any way responsible or attach any guilt towards it.

@TedMullins you clearly have your own perspective on things but seen as you are not married and think my DH being friends with someone I don't like is absolutely fine then i think we won't see eye to eye.
You sounds quite focused on doing what you want and not taking your other half's thoughts onboard maybe that is why your relationship broke down rather than them being controlling, something to thi k about but I don't know the whole story.
However it sounds like rather than compromose or put their own needs above your own, you do whatever you want but you peddle the narrative that someone who tells you your selfish behaviour is not on, is controlling.
I am not controlling my DH, I am setting boundaries for my own mental health and the health of our unborn baby. My health and his children's health should always be above a work friendship. Added to this it is just one person in my husband's life I am asking him to reconsider which is hardly controlling his whole life. I have also indicated i was not wishing to socialise in the past and he has put gis own selfish preferances above my needs which again is not on in a marriage. He must compromise. I don't hang out with the guy friends i had as a young 20 something at pubs like i would have done because it is not appropriate for a mum of 2/3 to do, however I compromise by seeing those friends with their wives and we socialise as a couple. That is appropriate. He has had years to go on all these school holidays and I am in the right to say now is not the time. I am not saying never just not now.
So far you have been rude about me on several occassions so I probably will leave your advice thanks.

Do what you like, but don’t blame the pages and pages of advice (not just me) telling you you’re unreasonable. Did you actually read my previous post where I said I left a partner who was controlling? The relationship didn’t “break down”, I left of my own volition because I wasn’t willing to put up with his unreasonable demands. I’m in a very happy, loving and equal relationship currently so I have no qualms about my behaviour or views, thank you.

i don’t see what’s inappropriate for you to continue friendships with men you had in your 20s, clearly you believe it is, but your husband obviously doesn’t share your belief system on this. You cannot demand he changes his values. You are within your rights not to want to socialise with this woman but why do you think that should mean your husband has to stop associating with her as well? Have you actually taken on board any of the posts telling you how unpleasant, petty and bitter you sound and how this really doesn’t help get your point across? There are plenty of them, not just from me.

and you haven’t answered the question about why you’re convinced her motives are bad despite her only ever attempting to be nice to you. Why didn’t you just befriend her 9 years ago when she first tried? What is so objectionable about her? Be honest with yourself, is it just jealousy because she’s popular, pretty and attractive and a lot of people like her? Do you wish people said those things about you? Have you got self esteem issues, past experiences of bullying or being excluded, or past partners who’ve been unfaithful?

perhaps if you’d approached your husband in the first instance by calmly telling him you were feeling insecure and needed reassurance, rather than name-calling this woman like a petulant teenager and insisting everything she does have an ulterior motive he might not have reacted so combatively. It does come across like this is much more about your self-perception than his or her actions, because I’m struggling to understand why you find her gestures to extend an olive branch so offensive.

I can understand why you're worried but it doesn't sound suspicious. I think Americans tend to be very into making new friends and building up social networks in this way.

@disco82 I'm not sure why you keep asking about alternative situations that aren't comparable, and aren't actually happening. It's not some kind of logic puzzle. OP is acting irrationally, causing upset and stress in her relationship, and honestly needs to speak to a professional before she destroys her marriage.

OP you are destroying your marriage.

I don’t understand the logic of being so angry at him telling her what you actually think - that you don’t like her. You don’t.

also you keep on saying that he’s out her above you and his family - but he hasn’t?? Apart from the one exceptional circumstance when his parent died he’s only interacted with her during school hours yes? Or when you where there?

its obviously driven by a really deep seated insecurity in you that is making you combust with jealousy about this women. This is not the way do deal with that.

you are going to destroy your marriage because you can’t resolve what is driving this jealousy.

OP, I mean this kindly, you need to seek help. The level of vitriol and the extent that you're twisting everything the other lady does is really not rational.

Please talk to someone, your midwife maybe. You sound like you need some real support before you completely blow up your marriage.

@Lucyofthemichealcar

I have been through a similar situation. My H used to message a colleague a lot and throughout the weekend, he had a photo of her on his phone (she sent him this) and he’d talk about her to me, it did make me uncomfortable but I didn’t say anything, strangely I was also pregnant at the time too. It wasn’t until I saw a message I viewed as inappropriate that I realised just how far things had gone. I realised I needed some boundaries in place and told him it was inappropriate and if he wished to continue then I didn’t want to be with him anymore, he listened, it stopped. There will be people on here telling you that your jealous, crazy etc but everyone is entitled to their own boundaries and if your H isn’t willing to respect your boundaries, then he really doesn’t respect you as a wife. My H also tried to gaslight me and play the ‘I’m not allowed female friends’ card which was nonsense. I certainly wouldn’t stand for this again and if he wouldn’t have stopped, I’d have shown him the door.

I do completely see where you are coming from, it’s all so over the top and really your husband doesn’t seem to be putting you and family first and foremost esp about the school trip. One of my closest friend had something similar but she was in her 50s, children grown up. Hubby was also a teacher and was very close to a colleague. When my friend was on holiday abroad with her husband he spent ages selecting a gift for his work colleague, I remember my friend telling me that she wasn’t worried but more be bemused and puzzled - and she wondered if he put as much thought when selecting a gift for her - his wife. It was only after this that she noticed other things like the colleague baking an apple pie and texting hubby to say she had baked an apple pie and would take it into school for him. Drinks in pub - all completely innocent of course. My friend said it was like a lightbulb moment and she did set clear boundaries with her husband that this was starting to overstep and seep into their home life. Was it innocent - maybe but hubby was enjoying the attention and my friend felt like she was almost starting to have to compete with the colleague ‘special friend’.

I hope your marriage survives this OP.

Well done for asserting your boundaries. Whether he respects them or not is upto him. I think it's easy for him to bluster and get angry when it's just his wife getting upset and making threats. I do think you taking the kids away for a while will give him a chance to figure out what exactly it is he's destroying his marriage over.

Her sending you that letter really should have been the evidence he needed that she is far overstepping the mark with you. Unless she's a dumb ass she can't have missed that you dislike her. DH has told her you dislike her. If she really was that worried about your mental health, the last thing she'd want to do is send you a bloody letter. She'd gracefully accept DH telling her that you're pregnant and wanting space and let you both be till baby was born and she was back from the US. Encourage him to focus on you and reconnect when things were calmer. Shows a complete lack of empathy and common sense on her part - also a lack of boundaries that she should not be inserting herself into a marriage! Surely she respects that your DH is a grown ass man and can deal with his wife himself without her needing to intervene. It's easy to write letters and send gifts saying she cares about your mental health when she disregards what you've asked for to protect your mental health - space. Given it's just a few months till she's away in the US, can she really not cope without him and reconnect once baby is born and you're both in a better place?? That to me would show she's not as considerate as she makes out. As an adult she should be aware that not everyone will like her and she should gracefully accept that and as a friend give space when it's needed.

Imagine if this were a guy you're dating and you tell him repeatedly to leave you alone, give you space and he then writes you a letter trying to convince you he's a good guy and means no harm. No one would think that sweet or say how else is he supposed to let you know he means no harm. It would be considered pushy and showing a lack of judgement. It's the same here.

Dear Op,

Your head must be spinning with the conflicting posts that are on this thread.
I don’t think l have read a thread that has so divided posters.

It was a bad move the OW sending you that letter - even your DH recognises that.

l agree with some other posters that however well meaning she is, she is not respecting your boundaries and pushing forward regardless. By her own admittance, because of her lack of family, she has a need to build a strong network of friends. She sounds driven by her own sense of isolation and has tried very hard to insert herself into your lives.

The problem is you have never pushed back before with your DH. Possibly your emotions are running deeper due to your pregnancy but l feel this has been a long running issue.

The language your DH is using to describe your behaviour is concerning. Using the term ‘mental’ is dismissive and invalidating.

You are allowed to have feelings and concerns about this woman.

I also think that something is really ‘off’ about his demand that you miss a friend’s 40th as he is missing his NY trip. He is using logic to shut you down.
Its difficult for you to argue back as on the surface it seems fair.

BUT the two situations are different- in many ways. And l bet over the years he has been away many more times than you. So you must be in ‘credit’ and owed more time away due to this.

lt sounds like you have both dug your trenches and are firmly embedded in them. Neither of you are willing to walk across no man’s land waving a white flag.

l would suggest you find a couples counsellor to help you navigate this complex situation.

OP I have only read your posts in full not all the replies. The more you add, the more I think that your husband is probably not sleeping with this woman but you're right, she is constantly there, deliberately insinuating herself into your lives, far too emotionally involved and it would be too much for me. She seems to take any opportunity to be more involved in his life- going to see his parents, for instance., would feel like a lot to me, lavish gifts, emotionally overwrought cards. The last one was very inappropriate. He should not have told her what you were feeling and she should not have grasped the opportunity to make it a big drama with her as the innocent heroine.

It would be the combination of all of it to me- the opportunism taking trips abroad together, him being on hand to help her with anything and everything, exposing far too much about your relationship. The pregnancy spa day thing was very odd- almost an apology for/ drawing attention to her 'taking him away from you'. That thank you letter would have been too much for me too.

I don't know what to suggest, if this is an emotional affair, but it seems to be an escapism of sorts to your husband- a life where he can completely legitimately go on international trips, have all sorts of baking and domestic cosiness, in jokes, emotional outpourings, be the hero but absolutely none of the domestic side of a relationship, and she lays it all on so thick and so persistently and behaves in such an ideal manner that it probably all does feel quite romantic, filmlike and 'what if'.

I believe you when you say you've been fine about other friendships, so are not controlling. It looks like you've had a real mix of responses so just wanted to say really that I see where you're coming from and to be honest, this whole thing reeks.

He's not listening though. Silent treatment and telling the person involved everything is very unfair. Maybe let your husband chill out then lay out your main concerns. Be smart about this. Things like staying at hers so she can get a 3am flight after her mother died are explainable. I'm talking more telling him your very personal concerns, prioritising a trip with her when you've said you won't want to be left with the kids alone that long (point out how this differs from your weekend away), him insisting on his right to visit another woman overseas. Say you're not accusing him of a sexual affair (unless you suspect this is happening), but that their friendship is crossing boundaries.

him telling her your very personal concerns

"Maybe I am too traditional but I don't understand why she is not married"

Yes. Yes you are "too traditional" and incredibly narrow minded too.

I actually don't think you're being unreasonable for the most part. From what you've written I don't get the idea that there is anything going on (at this point) and she sounds nice enough but the whole situation just sounds suffocating. My DH has a female work friend who he messages and sometimes meets for lunch but if he pissed off to sleep in a her spare room and left me with the kids I'd be livid. Oh and he seems very keen to go on as many trips as possible - I agree with the poster who said his job/colleague is a form of escapism.

Have you told anyone else in RL, parents, your friends, his friends, colleagues of his ?

I do think it's a good idea to have couples councelling as it seems he will not take your word that you are concerned and upset about the situation. Maybe a third party could spell it out to him.

He also shouldn't be using this situation as a levying tool in your marriage, idealy he should have not needed prompting to prioritise you but some men definitely use ignorance to get their own way.

Shine a light on some of this, the letters, cards etc, I'm sure in everyday life there will be not many of your aquaintances that have had such an invasion into their marriages.

I will say one thing, do not be intimidated by her, she is counting on your uncomfortablness, shame and niceness to help keep the status quo going for herself. How your husband is not activly respecting and protecting your reputation and allowing you to be in this 'jealous' possition is beyond me.

He hasn't got your back and the awful thing is, she knows it.

I could have never done this to another woman and to continue when knowing the friendship is actively harming the marriage aswell, she knows you are upset, the balls in your court, the cheeky cow.

She really is testing your husbands loyalty now isn't she.