At 40, would you expect ..

[Sonaftersonafterson]

More than this?

I've very recently starting seeing a lovely guy. It's very casual, however he is 41 and ..well, would this set up put you off a guy?

Freelance writer. Makes enough to get by but that's it.
Been to his place 4 times. Never once bought me food or a drink. Tea or water!
Seems to have very few personal possessions. Moans about not earning enough yet refuses to work evenings or weekends ever, saying that is 'his time'
Has 1 small child he sees every weekend, a hands on loving dad yet he has expressed how much parenthood doesnt suit him, likened it to a bomb going off in his life, how dads get no support, all attention on mums etc and that he would never ever have another
Lives in a tiny flat by himself. Before that, flat shared with ex or with others
Is very spiritual, vegan and sober.
Doesnt drive. No licence. Travels by bus.

Positives
Very sweet natured, calm, intelligent, interesting and easy on the eye

@Sonaftersonafterson I think perhaps it’d be wiser to just bin them off straightaway at first red flag as @Trippingslippingx1 said above and not give the man in question another thought. Otherwise I feel quite strongly that you’re almost tainted by the ick. Not in terms of worth...In terms of your mind/body/soul having been taken up for long enough by that person and the experience already; why would you prolong that unnecessarily.

I also very much agree with what @tripping said above - I took four years out without dating at all, after my marriage ended. Didn’t even look at a man or consider inviting one into my life. I waited until I was absolutely certain of who I was at that stage in my life and what was good and right for me. I was truly content on my own and would have been happy to live that way, with my children in our little unit, forever. As it turned out, the first man I was even remotely interested in on anything more than the most basic level turned out to be the love of my life - a thoroughly decent, kind, strong, hard working, attractive and intellectual man but eminently practical and down to earth with it. Perfect for me really. I would 100% rather have been alone forever at that point, than waste my precious time on earth and taint my mind and soul with countless icky experiences (sorry for the term but I can’t think of anything to better convey what I mean) in order to possibly someday find someone. And I think that meant that when a great man came along I instinctively recognised it.

However it must be much harder for young people who haven’t already had at least one very long relationship - the primal urge to make connections is so strong, of course, and the need to belong. Never mind the social conditioning to bend over backwards to accept any man that’s interested in you because that’s far better than being alone.

Anyway I wish you good luck with your future dating/relationships.

[quote Nnique]**@Sonaftersonafterson* I think perhaps it’d be wiser to just bin them off straightaway at first red flag as @Trippingslippingx1* said above and not give the man in question another thought. Otherwise I feel quite strongly that you’re almost tainted by the ick. Not in terms of worth...In terms of your mind/body/soul having been taken up for long enough by that person and the experience already; why would you prolong that unnecessarily.

I also very much agree with what @tripping said above - I took four years out without dating at all, after my marriage ended. Didn’t even look at a man or consider inviting one into my life. I waited until I was absolutely certain of who I was at that stage in my life and what was good and right for me. I was truly content on my own and would have been happy to live that way, with my children in our little unit, forever. As it turned out, the first man I was even remotely interested in on anything more than the most basic level turned out to be the love of my life - a thoroughly decent, kind, strong, hard working, attractive and intellectual man but eminently practical and down to earth with it. Perfect for me really. I would 100% rather have been alone forever at that point, than waste my precious time on earth and taint my mind and soul with countless icky experiences (sorry for the term but I can’t think of anything to better convey what I mean) in order to possibly someday find someone. And I think that meant that when a great man came along I instinctively recognised it.

However it must be much harder for young people who haven’t already had at least one very long relationship - the primal urge to make connections is so strong, of course, and the need to belong. Never mind the social conditioning to bend over backwards to accept any man that’s interested in you because that’s far better than being alone.[/quote]
You could not have said it better.

The dopamine hit from having male validation has to go before you can date sadly - this is when I have seen my friends settle for anything that comes along. ‘Finally I found my match’ - he is a immature abusive debt ridden man who has more red flags than the soviets, does not respond to your text messages and you essentially bought him a house to live in to rescue him from his recently divorced misery. He is also still on dating apps one year after you met. This was one friend I knew.

I had to cut a few friends off on my single and dating journey as they just could not get it through their minds that I could and would rather be single - than be strung along and ‘chilled’, ‘liberal feminist’. It was rather insulting.

I dated a guy kinda like this. Sweet, freelance designer, lucked out when his rental got bought by a housing association so he had been on a fixed rent for years. One kid, devoted, but enjoyed his weeks off. Vegan! I only went to his place once - he said he didn't like people around. Moaned a bit about money but didn't really put himself out there to earn more.
We often ate at mine. Always stayed there. He wasn't mean, but I don't recall him picking up the check when eating out despite all my home cooked meals.
Anyway it didn't go anywhere and after nine months it was over. Then I met my husband - very generous, ambitious, driven, never complained about his anything because he just set out to make it better. He was exciting to be with as he was passionate about his work, about me, about life.
Your fella sounds ok while waiting for someone a bit more dynamic.

[quote Nnique]@Sonaftersonafterson

I was talking from the perspective of things like this having been made up, in response to a previous comment. Not directly in relation to your threads, I hasten to add.

I’d say it’s definitely a pretty sad thing to pretend to have so many quite questionable people milling in and out of one’s life - it’s not hilarious, which is presumably what the motivation would be. Just rather tragic and sad, really.

However in cases where it’s apparently real...well...I don’t even know what to say, tbh. You do seem to be finding/attracting rather a lot of quite ‘interesting’ characters. I guess there are more and more of those about these days. I like to think you might manage to find someone who actually has something of worth to offer you. However sometimes that requires a change to your own behaviours and your own motivations.

Of course you might be perfectly happy and content with how things are playing put for you, in which case fill your boots![/quote]
Can't we be kind? Why are we blaming the woman here? Everyone agrees that there is a dearth of single, decent men around. The chances of the OP or anyone single of her age meeting a loser are quite high, probably higher than 50%. There just isn't a prime selection available of lovely, decent, personable, employed, solvent, single guys around. OP probably thought this one was worth persevering with to some extent because he doesn't look like the back end of a bus (like most of them on dating apps, to be frank), can hold an intelligent conversation (again, unlike most of them), doesnt communicate in terms of "Can I see more pics of your boobs" type comments, has some form of employment, his own flat, etc..

Obviously, when there were loads of single guys when we were in our twenties, we might have filtered him out in favour of someone a bit more ... reliable, but the idea that the OP is deliberately selecting oddballs and its all down on her to somehow improve her selection process and have counselling and so on in order to meet this Prince Charming who just happens to be single and available and live near her is utter pie in the sky. There really are a lot of weird, weird single men out there. In fact, not just single men.

She might get lucky. But at least she is living her life and being realistic, and she needs support, not these bitchy, smug comments.

I will pass too, thanks

It isn’t bitchy or smug. Support doesn’t always have to be ‘kind’, actually - ‘kind’ is often code for ‘make nice but ultimately pointless/useless noises’. Sometimes a frank discussion is much better and more helpful.

@Nnique

It isn’t bitchy or smug. Support doesn’t always have to be ‘kind’, actually - ‘kind’ is often code for ‘make nice but ultimately pointless/useless noises’. Sometimes a frank discussion is much better and more helpful.

I don't think women should be silenced when talking about awful men and their experiences. That just plays into the male narrative.

If you don't like these kind of posts, why not just scroll past?

And also I didn’t blame her. I made it clear that allowance was made for the fact the the calibre of men is poor. OP clarified afterwards that it’s not all men she meets, but she writes about the questionable ones (for want of a better term) here. Which is why I countered with my opinion - that once you are hesitant about the man, there is no point in analysing/dissecting/giving them any more thought. They’re not right for her or she wouldn’t be asking the question.

If, on the other hand, all the men one meets over a period of are ‘off’ somehow - not even just nice but no spark/neutral/incompatible somehow/etc, but ‘off’ for you, then one probably should examine why one is finding them or attracting them. There will be something causing it, conscious or not. That doesn’t mean one should take the ‘blame’ for it, but one should take the time to examine behaviours and motivations. People do have agency and abdicating that isn’t healthy and won’t do any favours in the long run.

@SucculentChalice Because it is easier to blame the woman for ‘having a bad picker’, ‘oh she can attract them’, ‘HOW do you meet these guys’ - than society looking at the bigger picture that the majority of heteronormative men who are single are completely hopeless and have nothing to bring to the table. The patriachy would cease to exist.

Most woman including myself have had these comments and when you reflect there is nothing we have done wrong. You have to learn boundaries and all of this through expierence which takes years.

The woman I find have the worst ‘luck’ (not luck, just have no idea what the reality of the dating world is like for woman nowadays) are usually woman mid thirties to mid forties who have had one significant long term relationship (usually 10-15 years) and are seperated / divorced. Its not OPs fault and in many ways at least she is using a forum where she can get some advice foing forward.

@Sonaftersonafterson No one is being silenced. If anything you are trying to silence me.

How about you let OP make up her own mind about whether or not I’ve said anything helpful - if not, she’s free to disregard it entirely. That’s how discussion and, potentially, learning, happens. You ask for opinions/advice, you evaluate and discard or take on board as you like.

@Nnique

And also I didn’t blame her. I made it clear that allowance was made for the fact the the calibre of men is poor. OP clarified afterwards that it’s not all men she meets, but she writes about the questionable ones (for want of a better term) here. Which is why I countered with my opinion - that once you are hesitant about the man, there is no point in analysing/dissecting/giving them any more thought. They’re not right for her or she wouldn’t be asking the question.

If, on the other hand, all the men one meets over a period of are ‘off’ somehow - not even just nice but no spark/neutral/incompatible somehow/etc, but ‘off’ for you, then one probably should examine why one is finding them or attracting them. There will be something causing it, conscious or not. That doesn’t mean one should take the ‘blame’ for it, but one should take the time to examine behaviours and motivations. People do have agency and abdicating that isn’t healthy and won’t do any favours in the long run.

There is nothing that she is doing to find ‘off’ ones - it is nothing unconsious, consious or some mystical universal reasoning. It really is that there are so many weirdos. I do not mean to burst anyones bubble here but I think many people still imagine there are many high value single men out there, the reality is, there is not. Once you grieve that fact it is far easier to just come to terms with - ‘another one’ and move on.

My mum has daughters and she despairs, her friends (I know of at least six families) similiary have daughters all professional capable and attractive woman in their 30s who cannot find a partner to settle down with. My colleagues at work say the situation is the same with similar woman in their churches etc. It is an epidemic. The odds are stacked against us and I think woman just need to accept the fact they may never find a high value partner and to build a life without a man. Sad reality nowadays - but it is facts.

Of course it’s not OP’s fault. If the wording of my comments reads that way then I’ll apologise unreservedly.

However that comes with the caveat that many times people do make very silly choices. Women in particular, it seems, because sadly there is so much societal pressure and conditioning on them to do so. If something somewhere makes them think, hang on, I don’t actually have to make this particular choice, then that’s no bad thing IMO.

On the other hand OP might think well, no, I don’t think you know what you’re talking about, actually. In which case, as I said, she will disregard my contribution.

@Nnique

Of course it’s not OP’s fault. If the wording of my comments reads that way then I’ll apologise unreservedly.

However that comes with the caveat that many times people do make very silly choices. Women in particular, it seems, because sadly there is so much societal pressure and conditioning on them to do so. If something somewhere makes them think, hang on, I don’t actually have to make this particular choice, then that’s no bad thing IMO.

On the other hand OP might think well, no, I don’t think you know what you’re talking about, actually. In which case, as I said, she will disregard my contribution.

Oh 100% - woman are conditioned to hang on. This is the killer. And I think if they have been married and one long term partner its much much harder.

There is nothing that she is doing to find ‘off’ ones - it is nothing unconsious, consious or some mystical universal reasoning. It really is that there are so many weirdos. I do not mean to burst anyones bubble here but I think many people still imagine there are many high value single men out there, the reality is, there is not. Once you grieve that fact it is far easier to just come to terms with - ‘another one’ and move on.

I agree with you on that. I think it’s very sad there are so many weirdos around now. That’s not what I’m talking about though. I’m saying if literally everyone you meet is off then there likely is some explanation on a subconscious/psychological level. OP has already clarified that it isn’t everyone, so this doesn’t apply to her.

It absolutely is not victim blaming and if that’s how it reads then I do apologise as that’s not the intent at all. But in some cases turning it into victimhood is disempowering in my opinion. But perhaps I’m doing a particularly bad job of conveying what I’m trying to say.

[quote Nnique]@Sonaftersonafterson No one is being silenced. If anything you are trying to silence me.

How about you let OP make up her own mind about whether or not I’ve said anything helpful - if not, she’s free to disregard it entirely. That’s how discussion and, potentially, learning, happens. You ask for opinions/advice, you evaluate and discard or take on board as you like.[/quote]
I would hate to give that impression. Because I've replied to you, it sounds like I'm picking on you. And now I'm doing it again, when in reality I had just read several posts from different posters saying these things and then replied to yours and yours alone.

What I mean is that, statistically, and in terms of probability, the OP is far more likely than not to meet odd men of the type that several posters have started criticising her for dating. I think its good that women speak up about this and almost treat it with the sense of humour/mild derision that it deserves. I find the posts about the OP making it up and blaming her as if she is doing something wrong for not meeting the perfect man and getting married within exactly 18 months far, far more unrealistic than anything the OP has said. Those posts are the real fantasy.

[quote Trippingslippingx1]@SucculentChalice Because it is easier to blame the woman for ‘having a bad picker’, ‘oh she can attract them’, ‘HOW do you meet these guys’ - than society looking at the bigger picture that the majority of heteronormative men who are single are completely hopeless and have nothing to bring to the table. The patriachy would cease to exist.

Most woman including myself have had these comments and when you reflect there is nothing we have done wrong. You have to learn boundaries and all of this through expierence which takes years.

The woman I find have the worst ‘luck’ (not luck, just have no idea what the reality of the dating world is like for woman nowadays) are usually woman mid thirties to mid forties who have had one significant long term relationship (usually 10-15 years) and are seperated / divorced. Its not OPs fault and in many ways at least she is using a forum where she can get some advice foing forward.[/quote]
True, and if you think that stuff like Bridget Jones which came out not all that long ago were really innovative at the time for talking about women's experience of the dating world from the perspective of women. Because women were presumably so conditioned just to tolerate and put up with me and all their weirdness just so they shouldn't be single.

Personally I think the problem is that men are still raised in the expectation that life owes them simply because they are men. That attitude doesn't work very well in the modern world and a lot of them are just unsuccessful, so unsuccessful in fact that, without a sterling personality, most of them will struggle to attract a long term partner (or aren't capable of keeping one).

I suspect as you say that the OP almost needs to go through these experiences if she has been in a long term relationship as her dating experience, in order to realise the men to avoid. As would most of us if we were in the same position with the same experience.

I know I would tend to believe that a man who was good looking, who spoke well, who could hold decent conversations and had a nice flat would be worth "trying out" through dating as to me, he wouldn't be an obvious one to avoid until I got to know him better. I think the OP is doing quite a good job on picking up on these more subtle red flags quite early.

@Nnique

There is nothing that she is doing to find ‘off’ ones - it is nothing unconsious, consious or some mystical universal reasoning. It really is that there are so many weirdos. I do not mean to burst anyones bubble here but I think many people still imagine there are many high value single men out there, the reality is, there is not. Once you grieve that fact it is far easier to just come to terms with - ‘another one’ and move on.

I agree with you on that. I think it’s very sad there are so many weirdos around now. That’s not what I’m talking about though. I’m saying if literally everyone you meet is off then there likely is some explanation on a subconscious/psychological level. OP has already clarified that it isn’t everyone, so this doesn’t apply to her.

It absolutely is not victim blaming and if that’s how it reads then I do apologise as that’s not the intent at all. But in some cases turning it into victimhood is disempowering in my opinion. But perhaps I’m doing a particularly bad job of conveying what I’m trying to say.

Its hard over this forum and text to explain points.

I suppose I am probably more twitchy as I have heard many woman openly admitted that they were ‘smug’ in the situation they had (met and married their Uni or School sweetheart) and used to feel safe and relieved in their 30s seeing the nonsense their friends were put through with dating. Only to find themselves single with children in their early 40s when their husband cheated and had to do the process themselves for their opinion to very very quickly change and realise that it is 99.9% of men.

Even if every guy she did meet was off - it still would not be her fault. I know a woman who was a model for gap, is a doctor, is the most amazing friend I have ever met, is sane sensible and strong - and for the past 10 years she has been unable to meet a single sane partner.

I have a date tonight and I am already gearing myself up for him to be a looser or a weirdo. When I was newly single 3-4 years ago if someone asked me out I would have been giddy with excitement of the prospect. Now, honestly, with the culture of the dating scene I am expecting for him to do or say something utterly weird and to have no second date. How sad is that?

The best thing OP can do is continue to utilise resources like this when she feels something is off to get a global opinion of what others would feel in the situation. ❤️

What I mean is that, statistically, and in terms of probability, the OP is far more likely than not to meet odd men of the type that several posters have started criticising her for dating. I think its good that women speak up about this and almost treat it with the sense of humour/mild derision that it deserves.

Yes I do get that and of course that’s not OP’s fault. It’s the way of the world, very sadly. And indicative of a much deeper and wider set of problems. It’s not our daughters’ faults that so many of them will not easily be able to find men of integrity. It’s not our peers’ faults either (I am likely of a similar age to OP).

I’m sorry if I was overly combative in my replies to you.

These are not easy problems to solve, and I certainly don’t want to place blame where it’s not warranted. However I feel strongly that agency is so important and in order to have agency one must have as much power as possible to firmly be one’s own advocate in life. Everything I say comes from a position that has helped me immensely in safeguarding my own sanity and well-being. It may not be applicable to everyone else but it may hopefully be helpful to some.

Sounds like a real catch. Lol.

Even if every guy she did meet was off - it still would not be her fault. I know a woman who was a model for gap, is a doctor, is the most amazing friend I have ever met, is sane sensible and strong - and for the past 10 years she has been unable to meet a single sane partner.

Then it really is worse than I had thought. If she has not met a single sane person than the situation is emphatically dire.

I do think that unfortunately for intelligent + high achieving + decent + good + strong women, there are slim pickings indeed. That’s because it’s quite natural to want or need a partner at one’s own level or higher on all important aspects. That’s very difficult for women to find. But again that’s probably a discussion for another day.

Good luck on your date. 🌷 There’s a lot of wisdom in what you both (I think; I’ve lost track of how many parties I’m replying to) are saying, I can see that, and I guess it’s probably more relevant to OP given that you’re living it as we speak.

@Nnique

Even if every guy she did meet was off - it still would not be her fault. I know a woman who was a model for gap, is a doctor, is the most amazing friend I have ever met, is sane sensible and strong - and for the past 10 years she has been unable to meet a single sane partner.

Then it really is worse than I had thought. If she has not met a single sane person than the situation is emphatically dire.

I do think that unfortunately for intelligent + high achieving + decent + good + strong women, there are slim pickings indeed. That’s because it’s quite natural to want or need a partner at one’s own level or higher on all important aspects. That’s very difficult for women to find. But again that’s probably a discussion for another day.

Good luck on your date. 🌷 There’s a lot of wisdom in what you both (I think; I’ve lost track of how many parties I’m replying to) are saying, I can see that, and I guess it’s probably more relevant to OP given that you’re living it as we speak.

❤️

@Nnique

Even if every guy she did meet was off - it still would not be her fault. I know a woman who was a model for gap, is a doctor, is the most amazing friend I have ever met, is sane sensible and strong - and for the past 10 years she has been unable to meet a single sane partner.

Then it really is worse than I had thought. If she has not met a single sane person than the situation is emphatically dire.

I do think that unfortunately for intelligent + high achieving + decent + good + strong women, there are slim pickings indeed. That’s because it’s quite natural to want or need a partner at one’s own level or higher on all important aspects. That’s very difficult for women to find. But again that’s probably a discussion for another day.

Good luck on your date. 🌷 There’s a lot of wisdom in what you both (I think; I’ve lost track of how many parties I’m replying to) are saying, I can see that, and I guess it’s probably more relevant to OP given that you’re living it as we speak.

This is why three of my sisters friends and I know another couple - who are senior partners in Law or in Medicine in their mid to last thirties - just gave up and made a family on their own being a single mother by choice.

And of course, it was the Men in their work place who had the most shocked view of it - because these woman were all conventially very attractive, successful and financially stable. And nice. Comments such as ‘she was just too picky’, ‘she is selfish’ - Nope. Nope. Nope. Every single one of them had the same stories. My sister said you could almost rinse and repeat their dating stories - cut and paste.

He might suit a number of people out there, and I'm sure he is a lovely man. However to answer your question, I would want more and I don't feel (based on your description) that I'd get it from him.