caring for FIL - what is reasonable?

[bareniceties]

Just had a horrible phone call with my OH and would appreciate some independent views to help me reflect.

FIL lives by himself around 500 miles away from us. He is 90 and his health is now poor. Last year we set up carers to go in 2x a day and this is going pretty well. Last week, however, FIL was rushed into hospital with pneumonia again. He was due to come out today but latest bloods not as great as hoped so this is delayed by a day or two (all going well).

Every time FIL gets ill (currently around 3 times a year) DH drops everything and dashes up there. He WFH and can work from there so that's a help. We have 2 kids age 13 and 14. I work but they can walk to school so we do manage well when he's not here but obviously some social events need to be cancelled (we have no help here, no-one I can ask to be with the kids).

DH and I have a recurrent disagreement about how much is reasonable to support FIL. Today DH said he wanted to stay and help FIL 'transition' home from hospital. He was very vague about what this meant and cross that I was asking but it seems that he's saying he wants to be there when he gets home from hospital, he wants to see whether he needs help with meals, getting drinks, getting to and from the toilet, getting dressed and if he can't do these things on his own, then start setting up more care.

My position is that of course do drop and run if you think FIL is seriously ill and might die but once we know that's not the case (thankfully) we need to be sure that the care needed at home is in place before he is discharged and sometimes FIL will need to go to a home which his son is not currently staying at - i.e. he will go home to an empty house, albeit with regular carer visits. I think DH can now come home and we can do the rest of the arranging via phone.

OH said that he owes it to his dad to help him out (they are not close but he was with his mother and really feels he is doing it for her) and that we should always do that if the compromise is not too great - though he wouldn't say who gets to decide about that.

It was DS's BD yesterday and OH missed that as he was at his dad's. DS's BD party this weekend has had to be postponed (I can't run it for him as it's physical and I have some health issues).

I am not too worried about a one-off but I am worried that DHs need for his dad to always have him there when he comes out of hospital and to be there throughout his hospital stays is untenable given the distance and the frailty of his dad's health. I guess it does not feel fair on us to prioritise his dad's needs above all else.

For context, FIL has no family other than OH. He has some good friends but they are too elderly to help. We offered to find FIL a flat near us or a residential home. He did not want to move - fair enough he's lived in his home town for 70 years now, but it's not that he's not welcome here. We've also offered to find a home for him in his own home town but he's not keen on that and again fair enough, he's a man who likes his own space and needs a lot of quiet.

Am I just being unsupportive do you think?

@bareniceties

I don't think it is normal though perhaps I am wrong. Visiting sick relatives and wanting to do so is entirely normal but it is the scale of what he is doing is what I don't think is. He's not gone up for a day or two. He's gone for a couple or a few weeks and does this regularly. When he does that he only works part-time in order to look after his dad. It's not about convenience - that's not the issue.

I'm really surprised that you don't think it's normal to stay with a 90 year old parent who's just been released from hospital? Seriously? So what if he has to stay a couple of weeks? I'm also surprised that your DH only sees his father 2 to 3 times a year. That's not enough in my opinion. My parents are old but not as old (they're in their 70s and early 80s). I live 6 hours away but try to see them every couple of months so about 6 times a year. The reasons are I enjoy their company, I want to help them when I can (I wish I could help more) and I'm very aware that their time is limited. My dad has poor health and I want to make the most of seeing him while I still can. I can't get over the fact that your DH only sees his dad 2 to 3 times a year (sometimes for 2 weeks) and you seem unhappy with this and think it's not normal (as in too much!!)

I appreciate its difficult but when elderly people are discharged from hospital they are frequently discharged to cold houses with no food in, arrive home at antisocial hours often without the care they would benefit from in place because the only care that can be sourced is the absolute minimum (no ones fault.. its just how hugely struggling the care sector is ). If your OH can be there it will greatly improve the chances of a successful discharged rather than a chaotic bounce back into hospital.

I'm really surprised that you don't think it's normal to stay with a 90 year old parent who's just been released from hospital? Seriously? So what if he has to stay a couple of weeks? I'm also surprised that your DH only sees his father 2 to 3 times a year. That's not enough in my opinion. My parents are old but not as old (they're in their 70s and early 80s). I live 6 hours away but try to see them every couple of months so about 6 times a year. The reasons are I enjoy their company, I want to help them when I can (I wish I could help more) and I'm very aware that their time is limited. My dad has poor health and I want to make the most of seeing him while I still can. I can't get over the fact that your DH only sees his dad 2 to 3 times a year (sometimes for 2 weeks) and you seem unhappy with this and think it's not normal (as in too much!!)

Are you assuming that FIL wants him to visit more? He doesn't. He is not a sociable man. He wants him there when he needs him but not just for social reasons. OH calls his dad every day and that works much better for FIL than seeing OP 'too much'.

I appreciate its difficult but when elderly people are discharged from hospital they are frequently discharged to cold houses with no food in, arrive home at antisocial hours often without the care they would benefit from in place because the only care that can be sourced is the absolute minimum (no ones fault.. its just how hugely struggling the care sector is ). If your OH can be there it will greatly improve the chances of a successful discharged rather than a chaotic bounce back into hospital.

But that's not the case. FIL has a care package which we manage from down here. It's an expensive provider so they are flexible and we would make sure that he has what he needs in the house before he comes home.

People are making a lot of random assumptions on this thread. I get that people are saying that regardless of how many times he goes into hospital, OP should be there for a period of time when he comes out regardless of the cost to us, and I can see why, but to assume that they know what sort of relationship OH and FIL have is weird.

Yes, he may need to do that again two or three times a year for the next few years. That’s reasonable too.

Current frequency would suggest it could be a lot more. Does that still feel OK? Is there any cut off which is too much? Genuine question. You're talking about perhaps max 3 times a year, max 3 weeks each time - 9 weeks. What if it is 6 times a year? 18 weeks?

I don't think you seem cold, detached, unpleasant, combative or any of the other things said about you.

It is a difficult situation with an unknown timeframe and I can see how genuinely you are trying to make it all work.

But I still agree with DH. I would take it on the chin and rethink your course. I know that's not what you want to hear, but it's important you do.

Thank you Elbie. I don't think I wanted to hear one thing or another specifically. I just wanted to hear other's thoughts so I can think things through more myself. It is not a clear cut simple issue. I want to be supportive to all, including FIL and kids and I also want to look after myself so that we are all as prepared as much as we can be for a potential tricky long haul. I don't know why people are thinking this is his last days. If that were the case, there is no complexity at all - OH should stay till the end. His mother had a horrible prolonged death 6 years ago and I moved heaven and earth to keep things ticking along here for her so OH could spend her last month there, despite losing all pre and after school childcare (OH did it) and despite not having the cash to pay for childcare, even if it had been available at immediate notice (breakfast and after school clubs weren't). I was working all hours around the kids needs and pulling in favours left right and centre to keep be able to go to work and cover the household costs for us both, I would do the same for FIL at the end too. But perhaps not sustainable for a decade.

You must make sure that your FIL isn't saying it is OK for him to go home as he has his son to look after him. He may be eligible to go to an interim care place eg a community hospital. I don't agree with you fussing about your H doing this BUT I have been there on several occasions and I know that these situations cannot be managed from a distance. You need to get your H to press for care elsewhere.Old people can get very selfish and stubborn. There was a saying where I grew up that old people will drown the younger ones in an attempt to survive as they want.

You need to let him do this. When something happens to his dad you don't want him to feel
Guilty about the situation. It's hard for you but your children are older and can probably understand better.

This is the stage of life that you are at I'm afraid. DFil is going to need increasing levels of care and most of us would want to spend as much time as possible( work allowing) with our parent in the knowledge that it isn't for long in the scheme of things.Cancelling of holidays and social events is completely normal in the situation.Obviously it would be better if he was nearer but the good thing is that your DH can probably do some work while he is there, help his old Dad and the rest of the family are self sufficient enough to manage well.If he has to go into a home it might help if it could be nearer.

I am still very much with your DH, even with your last update.

I said in my last post that this is normal, though not sustainable long term. If and when the frequency increases then DH will have to address this with FIL. There is simply no other way and getting het up as you are is not helpful, although I understand things are hard.

DH needs a plan and needs to know he can count on your support, not just you whinging that he missed birthdays etc. If FIL refuses to follow a sustainable plan THEN he will have to be left to feel the consequences (i.e. DH not being there due to other family commitments). Sometimes that is the only way through, both for the person involved and for agencies such as adult social services.

Even that though will be very difficult for your DH regardless of the state of his relationship with his Dad. Leaving a person to fail, whatever the reason, is far from ideal and feels dreadful. Feels inhumane.

You do sound as though you are putting pressure on, whether you see it that way or not. Don't. Stop it.

DH knows he has family commitments. He probably also knows that he is in danger of being spread too thinly. He needs your help to make a plan and then follow it through, not a whinge about him being unavailable for social events.

Topsey, what family commitments do you think warrant OH not staying at FILs?

It’s a very difficult time for you all OP but if FIL has been hospitalised with pneumonia at 90 from watching friends’ gps he’s likely to relapse and go back in fairly quickly, and not come home.

In the nicest way I think you need to try to find a way to carry on in the meantime. A 14 yo can be left for a few hours- unless by social life you mean weekends away- there’s no reason for your own life to stop. If you put your foot down and pull DH home then FIL died suddenly your relationship might not survive.

I too can see both sides.

Totally understandable (and refreshing) that your OH wants to support his father. That FIL lives 500 miles away is a problem, as it requires OH to be away for extended periods, missing out on family life.

Can a compromise work?

Bear in mind this might not be a short term situation. The Office for National Statistics says life expectancy for a 90 y.o man is 4 years on average.
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/lifeexpectancies/bulletins/nationallifetablesunitedkingdom/2018to2020#life-expectancy-at-older-ages.

Could FIL be persuaded to move near you?

Is it a non starter for you to move closer to him?

All the best OP, it’s a difficult situation.

@SockFluffInTheBath

It’s a very difficult time for you all OP but if FIL has been hospitalised with pneumonia at 90 from watching friends’ gps he’s likely to relapse and go back in fairly quickly, and not come home.

In the nicest way I think you need to try to find a way to carry on in the meantime. A 14 yo can be left for a few hours- unless by social life you mean weekends away- there’s no reason for your own life to stop. If you put your foot down and pull DH home then FIL died suddenly your relationship might not survive.

Or the OP may end up with a situation like my dad. In mid 90s, very frail. 14 admissions of between 1 day and 5 weeks over an 18 month period. The OP and her family need to consider that possibility snd hoe to cope with that level of commitment. With my dad, staying for the duration of and a week after every admission would have taken up 26 weeks in an 18 month period.

@bareniceties

Topsey, what family commitments do you think warrant OH not staying at FILs?

Well surely he has commitments to you and the children! And to his work if he works better at home.

I've said that this is hard for all of you, as have others. Many of us have been there and know that we will be again. Some of us are still in the thick of it and sharing our thoughts but you seem snarky towards any that don't entirely agree with yours.

I do have sympathy for you, but also for your DH. It is an almost impossible path to tread and whatever you do you can't please everyone. That is impossible. It is all a compromise.

Oh, and if you read my posts, I have said that he will often need to stay at FIL's. As I did with my Dad and my DH did with his parents.

OMG. Your social life is more important than your OH elderly dad coming out of hospital, when it was touch and go, so your OH can assess if his father needs additional help? You’re a peach. 🏆. Special prize just for you.

Could not believe when I read this

“It sounds like the consensus is I should just accept that my social life will be more limited until either FIL dies or my 14 year old will be old enough to stay on her own with her brother (which hopefully will come first of course). “

YABU.

I think most of us would be exactly like your DH in these circumstances. Of course he wants/needs to see him home and establish care levels.

I'm really baffled at why you're baffled? This is how families work; they look after their elderly, it's hard, it's tough, it can last years, yes a decade or more, you will probably look back on it as one of the toughest times in your marriage, but if you love your partner you put your big girl pants on and support him. Juggling elderly care whilst still having children at home is increasingly common, I'm not saying it's not hard, you have my sympathy, but that's life.

I don't understand why your DS' party 'obviously' had to be postponed / social events cancelled they are 13/14 not toddlers?
I am sorry but I think you are looking for excuses ?

@mumofEandE if you'd read the OP responses you'd know why the party was cancelled.

It was cycling and OP has a health condition so couldn't get the bikes on the car and the DS wanted the DF to come with them. On rereading maybe the DS could have got the bikes up themselves, but I think it was more the point that they wanted the DF to be there.

@mumofEandE

I don't understand why your DS' party 'obviously' had to be postponed / social events cancelled they are 13/14 not toddlers? I am sorry but I think you are looking for excuses ?

If you had read all the OPs posts she explains and there are perfectly understandable reasons why given the OPs own health issues.

OP, I'm sorry you're having such a hard time on this thread. Just a thought, there is a section on MN about caring for elderly parents/in-laws - I believe it's under 'other stuff', buried deep in the talk menu. I found some useful threads there when DH and I were organising POA for my FIL, and got the impression that it was a supportive space for people at the stage you're at. I suspect you might find it helpful and less judgmental.

Of course what your DH is doing is normal. We're becoming so far removed from what it means to be part of a family these days.

On a practical note, if your DFIL is financially well off and your DH has POA could he take the train fare costs from his DFs accounts?

I, too, think you're having a hard time on here. Neither DH nor I would be able to keep being off work on numerous occasions annually for weeks at a time. We wouldn't be able to afford it, either.

When MIL was just beginning to suffer dementia she had to go into hospital for something. She then had to recuperate in a nursing home/respite care. She was very opposed to it initially but when the time came for her to return home, she didn't want to leave. I think it's the fear of the unknown for many older people. I think you should push for him to go into a home if you can't get him to move nearer you. I agree that what your DH is doing is unsustainable in the longer term. Also, ime sometimes teenagers need their parents almost more than younger DC.

Good luck with whatever you decide.