caring for FIL - what is reasonable?

[bareniceties]

Just had a horrible phone call with my OH and would appreciate some independent views to help me reflect.

FIL lives by himself around 500 miles away from us. He is 90 and his health is now poor. Last year we set up carers to go in 2x a day and this is going pretty well. Last week, however, FIL was rushed into hospital with pneumonia again. He was due to come out today but latest bloods not as great as hoped so this is delayed by a day or two (all going well).

Every time FIL gets ill (currently around 3 times a year) DH drops everything and dashes up there. He WFH and can work from there so that's a help. We have 2 kids age 13 and 14. I work but they can walk to school so we do manage well when he's not here but obviously some social events need to be cancelled (we have no help here, no-one I can ask to be with the kids).

DH and I have a recurrent disagreement about how much is reasonable to support FIL. Today DH said he wanted to stay and help FIL 'transition' home from hospital. He was very vague about what this meant and cross that I was asking but it seems that he's saying he wants to be there when he gets home from hospital, he wants to see whether he needs help with meals, getting drinks, getting to and from the toilet, getting dressed and if he can't do these things on his own, then start setting up more care.

My position is that of course do drop and run if you think FIL is seriously ill and might die but once we know that's not the case (thankfully) we need to be sure that the care needed at home is in place before he is discharged and sometimes FIL will need to go to a home which his son is not currently staying at - i.e. he will go home to an empty house, albeit with regular carer visits. I think DH can now come home and we can do the rest of the arranging via phone.

OH said that he owes it to his dad to help him out (they are not close but he was with his mother and really feels he is doing it for her) and that we should always do that if the compromise is not too great - though he wouldn't say who gets to decide about that.

It was DS's BD yesterday and OH missed that as he was at his dad's. DS's BD party this weekend has had to be postponed (I can't run it for him as it's physical and I have some health issues).

I am not too worried about a one-off but I am worried that DHs need for his dad to always have him there when he comes out of hospital and to be there throughout his hospital stays is untenable given the distance and the frailty of his dad's health. I guess it does not feel fair on us to prioritise his dad's needs above all else.

For context, FIL has no family other than OH. He has some good friends but they are too elderly to help. We offered to find FIL a flat near us or a residential home. He did not want to move - fair enough he's lived in his home town for 70 years now, but it's not that he's not welcome here. We've also offered to find a home for him in his own home town but he's not keen on that and again fair enough, he's a man who likes his own space and needs a lot of quiet.

Am I just being unsupportive do you think?

I understand it’s tough but think it’s lovely your DH cares so much.

How would/will you feel if you were in FILs situation?

Tough all round, but your husband is doing what he really has to at this stage. I agree with a pp that it's more important for him to be there for discharge than while FiL is in hospital, though that is also understandable and good for liaison, talking to the discharge team, occy health etc. So I do think you were a bit unfair, but can understand your frustration, too. As you say, this could go on for another decade.

One thing I'd add, is about insisting your husband calls himself a carer. That's a really difficult thing for some people, myself included. I resisted using that term about myself for years when my dad was declining and needed similar care to your FiL. Technically, of course it was true, but it felt like I was being pushed into the role with a kind of vague threat that even more care would be expected from me and I couldn't handle that (I outsourced as much as possible, kept it so my visits were purely social, not 'working'). You can of course think of your husband as a carer if that helps you, but I would say maybe also apologise to him for pushing that, if needs be, and just avoid the term altogether. Best of luck with all of it.

@SolasAnla

You are currently teaching your children how to manage you when you get old.

You need to adapt your home to be suitable for carers comming in twice a day and pick put a nice care home. You have a 75% chance you will need both.

We can't remove the stairs!!!!! FIL can't live downstairs in the lounge with no access to q bathroom!!! Plus he does not want to move.

Your kids are 13 and 14. I really can't see how your DH being away can require extensive cancelling of social arrangements, surely they are fairly independent/capable of being left alone except for overnight e.g. I think you are being very unreasonable. It's not like your DH is asking you to do the care for his Dad.

@Supersimkin2

You’re not being remotely nasty OP. Aggressive posters have self-evidently never done eldercare.

Care of the severely frail elderly often lasts for decades now, not months or years.

It’s impossible to work out how much of a chunk of your life and your family’s life will be lost to caring for the old.

So don’t try - go with it. Don’t believe anyone who says ‘not long left’. Have a good long talk with DH and set reasonable boundaries for your family with a good standard of care for FIL and reassess every 6 months.

Thank you. There are some very naive comments assuming this is just for a few months. But he could live for another decade or more.

I can easily do most parties on my own of course but the is transporting bikes to a rural area. It was hell to arrange in the first place as we've had to beg favours from all and sundry to arrange transportation to the venue and I can't get 3 bikes on the roof rack. I can't get any on. There is no one else to ask tondrive them and DS also can't get the bikes on the roof. Moreover he wants his dad there. DS would rather postpone (it's not cancelled) than do something different but good idea to do something this weekend so I'll see if he wants a friend over for pizza and movie night.

In terms of what I'd do in FiL position? Move into a home. But that's irrelevant as I like being around people and he doesn't. I really do think I'd think a lot about the load that family are carrying but that's easy to say of course.

Socialising is staying with friends not cruises. We do not flash cash we don't have.

If it was my dad, I'd be very worried that he was in hospital. If my bf suggested that I should only go if I got the final telephone call, tbh I'd just end it with him. I couldn't let my dad go home alone if he might not be able to use the toilet. I live abroad. I'd fly over.
Is something else going on in your relationship to make you argue over this, or are you at the end of your tether because of your work and family duties? Perhaps there's something else the two of you could do to take some of the pressure off you, if that is part of the problem?

I think its the nature of the beast unfortunately. You just have to grin and bear it for now.

My mum was more or less in the exact same situation. Brothers live abroad. Over a 5 hour drive away.

Her mother needed extra care organisating and sorting out when she got out of hospital on more than one occasion.

She lived in independent housing with a warden but even that was starting to prove not enough by the end even though her neighbours looked out for her.

I definitely think that at 90 with that many problems, you aren't going to be doing this for the next 10 years or more. The reality is definitely harder and more difficult.

Moving him such a long way, isn't necessarily going to make your life easier either. Your OH may simply feel they need to see him even more often.

No solution here that is going to resolve this well until the inevitable, I fear.

I do agree with you OP that you can't just assume it won't be 10 years! My exh's lovely grandmother died recently at 97 (peacefully, in her home), she'd been pretty frail and needing various sorts of care since about 90.

I think you're getting a really hard time here OP.

Just as your FIL won't be rough forever your DS won't want to celebrate his birthdays and have his DF involved in his parties forever.

Your DH absolutely should provide as much support as he feels able to, but he needs to also remember that he is a DP and balance those requirements as well. Teenage DCs don't need as much hands on parenting but they do want and need a DP to be around to discuss things on their schedule, sometimes that needs to be a DF instead of a DM.
And yes hardly heartless to want to consider how the bills will be paid.

It sounds like the word “carer” has become contentious for you both and part of some sort of blame game where it makes him defensive. What he is is a devoted son who is committed to making his elderly dad’s life comfortable, he should be praised on that respect, and you are likely to find that this trait of his will come in handy in your life when or if you need him to care for you.

On the other hand, it must be frustrating that the solution to a lot of these issues lies in his dad moving to be closer to you, and it’s really the dad’s refusal to do so that is causing these issues for you. So I can understand your feelings there totally.

@bareniceties

That's a bit unpleasant *@Jakc* I don't mind cancelling some social engagements. I just think that if the bar is now that OH needs to be there throughout all hospital stays and for a week or so (or longer if more care needs to be set up) at every discharge, this is a massive commitment and we should be clear that is what we are committing to.

Social events are an important way to de-stress and find meaning in life. Of course I'll cancel them so OH can be with his very ill dad. Cancelling them so OH can stay with his dad for a week after he comes out is a bigger compromise.

It sounds like the consensus is I should just accept that my social life will be more limited until either FIL dies or my 14 year old will be old enough to stay on her own with her brother (which hopefully will come first of course). I keep saying to my OH that he is his father's carer and he angrily says not. Maybe I need to explain that it may be easier for me to accept that he is as then any support he offers for childcare etc is a bonus rather than an expectation.

Also not sure why he's angry at the idea of him being a carer but I can explore that with him another time when things are calmer.

It sounds like the consensus is I should just accept that my social life will be more limited until either FIL dies or my 14 year old will be old enough to stay on her own with her brother (which hopefully will come first of course). I keep saying to my OH that he is his father's carer and he angrily says not. Maybe I need to explain that it may be easier for me to accept that he is as then any support he offers for childcare etc is a bonus rather than an expectation

Firstly, that comes across a bit snarky, but anyway, yes you do. There will be times in your life where you have a lot of freedom socially and times when you don't influenced by many factors - work, school, study, family circumstances and kids ages. This is one of them and probably one at the less flexible end of the scale. It's shit timing but I don't think a week is a stretch for a bit of evaluating by your OH.

I can see both POV.

Right now, you've got a game plan for your son's birthday. However, the current setup is unsustainable and you all know it. There's three separate issues to discuss:

1. Finances. You mentioned taking a twin hit every time DP visits, both on travelling and reduced workload. This likely to increase as FIL gets more frail and even after death as your OH will be sorting out FIL's will and personal effects. So, you will need a plan to 'bank' work/cash to cover the trips. If it's not been done already, find a sensitive time and place to discuss wills, funerals, health wishes and power of attorney with your FIL. It's also worth bearing in mind that the average cost of a funeral is £4k, so knowing in advance that is funded (or not) will help you at a time of berevement.

2. FIL's care. He does not want a home or care home (fair enough), but you need a step-up plan in place, so you know ahead of time how and when to access more help, rather than wait for the crisis to hit.

3. Your family. You have health needs and no-one to back you up, when OH is not there. I appreciate they are teenagers, not toddlers but start asking around for support. Local friends, a recommended uni student who can keep an eye on them, a handyman for domestic issues. Again, this is just-in-case, but it will leave you and OH much less stressed.

Good luck.

I think YABU and unsupportive. It's not often and the poor bloke is 90. How would you feel in his shoes. What would you want?

You're being unsupportive. Not to mention heartless.

I dropped everything twice (husband, job, baby) and went hundreds of miles to care for dying FIL and dying DM in their own homes.

@redambergreengo

I think YABU and unsupportive. It's not often and the poor bloke is 90. How would you feel in his shoes. What would you want?

Speaking from experience a 90yo in poor health will quite likely be in and out of hospital on a regular basis and that can last quite a long time. My dad had 14 admissions in his last 18 months. That's over £1700 in train fares alone for OP and her DH to find. Let alone probably the almost complete loss of annual leave to spend together. They could easily end up barely seeing each other for a couple of years if the FIL is anything like our parents. They needs an alternative plan rather than reacting to each emergency. Now is probably not a good time to discuss it as the DH won't be in a good space until his dad is seemingly settled (I say seemingly because the next crisis will come along soon) but in the longer term it probably isn't sustainable and OP needs to decide what she can and can't cope with.

I can understand how hard and frustrating this is for you, but you must remember that it is for your DH too.

I've been in your situation from both sides - firstly with the ill health and deaths of each of DH's parents (for the first of those our three DDs were still very young). During that time DH would sometimes have to disappear up there at very short notice.

Secondly, this last 18 months has been my turn, with the age and declining health of my own parents, including my Dad's final illness and death a year ago (my mother is still around, but fairly immobile). So, I am still caught up in it and we live three hours drive away. Thankfully, our three DDs are now grown up and self sufficient, but my life is still hard.

So, while I understand your obvious frustration, I have to say that I am with your DH here - you are also being unreasonable.

Can I make a suggestion for your DH? I would strongly suggest that he insists on a full assessment of FIL's needs BEFORE saying to the hospital that he will accept him home and that he has a care package already in place. The current care package might be insufficient now that FIL has been ill again. Don't just accept the word of the hospital that things are all tickety boo when they want to discharge him as I know from bitter experience that they may say this, but you can then find the opposite was actually true. That was what happened with my 87 year old Dad. He had also been admitted with bilateral pneumonia. While in hospital he was largely bed ridden and lost all of the strength in his legs, so he could no longer walk at all. When they came to discharge him they told my mother that he was walking well on the ward ( my arse he was) and all was fine. It wasn't. He couldn't walk at all when he got home, could just about sit, certainly couldn't go to the toilet and was in a very bad state. His pneumonia soon worsened again, he weakened further, had to be readmitted to hospital and he died soon after that. He might have had a better chance if truth had been told and proper assessment done before sending him home, but we'll sadly never know now. Tell DH not to agree to FIL's discharge until he knows a proper needs assessment has been done and that the right care package has been put in place. Once that has happened he needs to stay for a little while after the discharge to ensure as far as possible that things can work, for now.

Neither DH nor I ever put time pressure on each other when parents were ill and/or dying. We just told each other to take the time needed and do as necessary. It's incredibly hard, but necessary and I'm afraid you just have to go with it.

I'm sorry you are in this situation. It happens to many of us and it's shit, but there is no magic wand.

@2bazookas

You're being unsupportive. Not to mention heartless.

I dropped everything twice (husband, job, baby) and went hundreds of miles to care for dying FIL and dying DM in their own homes.

I think you might have misunderstood. My OH has had to do this a number of times already. This is perhaps the 6th time. Probably more.

He's been there more than a week already. I'm not fussing about a few days.

I get what people are saying about care but FiL will not consider that whilst DP is filling any gaps in support.

OP even if you were closer it would be problem as daily visits would be wanted. The same problem but spread out more instead of intense bursts. Your DH will be feeling worried and guilty but as long as he does fill the gaps the situation won't change. Get yourself over to the elderly parents board, it's in other. There are plenty there that understand the problem and may have practical ideas. Cockroach café is a good place to unload.

Ive been through this, so you have my sympathy.
If FIL cannot manage, and refuses to go in a home, he needs to be left to fail unfortunately.
SS will let you do everything. If you’re not willing or able DH needs to pull away and leave them to it.

@Jakc

To be honest you sound quite nasty. His dads just coming out of hospital and is 90 and in ill health and you are moaning because you have to postpone some social activities even though your kids are teenagers and you don’t really need him home. I think you are being really unfair to your husband

This.

Your DH is very fortunate that he can work from anywhere & take large blocks of time away from his family to care for his father

I agree, his priority is to ease his father out of hospital & he may need 4 carers a day instead of 2.

He is fortunate to still have his father at 90, but it is not easy emotionally or physically

Surely, you can organise a birthday celebration for your children ?

@Anxious153

His father is elderly and just about to be released from hospital. I think it is very understandable that your DH wants to stay and support his dad during the transition. Your FIL has no one else. You have already said that you manage well while your husband is away. I think you should try and be more understanding.

This. I find your post @bareniceties quite cold and shocking to be honest. Pet animals are often treated with more understanding and support than human elderly people in this country!!

Your kids are teens not babies so at this stage they need more supervision than hands on care. No reason why your life cant go on near normal as you can leave them alone at home if you want to go somewhere.

Yes it's a shame he missed his son's birthday but for a teenager, having their dad there is the least of their priorities - their friends are way more important to them at this age.

I am for team DH !

Is FIL moving nearer to you an option at all? It's the distance that takes DH away so much.