DH's ENTJ behaviour - I'm losing my mind!

[printmeanicephoto]

Really struggling with my ENTJ husband (Myers Briggs personality type). He's always been very lawyer-like, contractual and efficiency-driven. I feel that this works well for him at work (he's not a lawyer btw) but it doesn't necessarily translate well for a marriage relationship.

I feel like I'm going mad because we talk around in circles and we don't seem to make much headway with our issues. Increasingly he has taken to looking up words in the dictionary to prove to me that I'm using them incorrectly when speaking to him (I'm not).

I also feel like I'm being gas-lit when I'm trying to explain how I feel about something and he then focuses in on one word that I've said. It then becomes all about that word to the extent that my original heart-felt sharing/request becomes completely invalid. I recently said that I found an incidence of his behaviour "very rude". He then went to great pains to explain why it was just "rude" and not "very rude", and that I was over inflating the issue by using the word "very". I just felt he needed to get the spirit of what I was saying. This "very" word focus completely derailed the original conversation and I was left totally unheard and confused. This happens regularly. He also rarely apologies for anything and if he does, everything needs to be dissected first.

He recently gave me a hand written note that looked frighteningly like a contract to explain that he was withdrawing his previous offer to help me with something work related unless I stop "weaponising" the fact that I think he may have some Aspergers traits. He doesn't think he does. I don't think I weaponised it, I was just expressing some concerns about how his behaviour is affecting our marriage. The note even had dots for me to sign my name at the bottom! I'm afraid to say that I tore it up in front of him in utter frustration.

We've been together for over 20 years and have teenage kids. This unempathetic behaviour is not new. Not sure if he has mild Aspergers, is a narc or is just being an ENTJ. For years I thought he was just being awkward but now I just think it's how his brain is wired. I want things to work, but I'm running out of energy and sanity.

Other than suggesting turning to drink, any tips/thoughts?

I also searched for a label for my abusive ex, which he encouraged. Once he got a label, well, it didn't help. It made things so much worse, because now he had an excuse/reason for doing what he did. Now I should have to understand and put up with being screamed at and sworn at and told cruel things, and should forgive him immediately because of his label. How dare I be upset, I should be sensitive of him and his label!

I can understand the desire to find a label OP, you're desperately hoping, like I was, that it would somehow fix things. In my experience, it didn't.
I also look back now and think he probably manipulated the authorities as much as he was manipulating me, so I'm not even sure I could say the label was correct.

@Rainallnight

I am ENTJ and am not an asshole.

I'm strongly INTJ and also not an asshole, just for completeness :D

(And did I read the whole rest of the thread just to check no-one had posted this already? Of course #INTJ :D )

@ThisisMax

I think you should move away from using MBTI as a basis for analysing your husband. Its flaky as hell and makes everything hard work. Just discuss things like normal couples or go to someone who can train you to commuincate effectively. Forget the MBTI.

^this

He sounds a twat to be honest

@printmeanicephoto

I think the labelling is a way of me trying to process things, to make sense of the last two decades. And also in the vague hope that a diagnosis might unlock some help, support and tools to help me (and him). Does that make sense? But you're probably right guys, it ultimately doesn't matter and he clearly doesn't want to be labelled.

You need to accept that you're never going to know the cause of his behaviour whether a medical condition, dodgy upbringing or whatever.

Are you going to continue to live like this while you go to med school and train as a doctor then further train as a psychiatrist? Because that's the only way you're going to know if a medical condition is behind this.

The only other way to get him in front of a doctor for assessment would be if you sourced a private psychiatrist on his behalf, bopped him over the head, tied him up, shoved him in the car and dragged him into their offices. And if you did that, you'd be the one getting labelled a problem!

Let's say, hypothetically speaking, that you managed either of these scenarios AND he turns out to have a medical condition..what then?

Do you think he'll -

A) turn round and say, Gosh wifey you're so right, I need to do things which I maybe just can't do even if I wanted to in order to change and enable me to be nicer to you, I apologize for all the years I treated you badly and will definitely make it up to you, let's start now. Then you head off into the sunset to your house with roses round the door...

Or

B) turn round and say, See wifey, I can't help it! A doctor, no less, has pronounced me to be RIGHT! It's because of this condition. So if you don't put up with it you're being mean...?

OP you're locked in a battle you can't win.

I agree with the above post. It's a battle you can't win. We live in a time when we are pretty obsessed with getting labels and diagnosing, which is all well and good, but the lived reality is never as neat as a label. The problem with having parents who are caught in battle is that the child then starts to experience one as good and one as bad, or one as right and one as wrong, and you are essentially training your children in the art of splitting. Surely you want more for your life than living with someone who can't ever let stuff go OP?

There are very few ENTJs, they are born leaders and as any other personality type, full of positive traits

Ha ha I came out as a ENTJ, I knew it was wrong

OP stop analysing him, it doesn't help. He does sound very difficult and annoying to live with though.

He's a TWAT type.

There is no fixing him because he doesn't believe anything is wrong with him and the way he is, works for him.

He probably thinks his marriage is fine.

What would it take to leave him?

Oh god..this brings back really bad memories. I left a similar sort of man.

He may or may not have ASD, but who really cares?! That doesn't give him a free ticket to be an arsehole even if he does.

Forget about the ENTJ nonsense & stop using it as an excuse for your husband's poor behaviour.

It has nothing to do with personality type, & everything to do with being a destructive, critical, gaslighting twat.

It doesn't matter about any potential diagnosis or even whether he is a narc. What matters is that he is making you miserable, & treats you like a defective employee.

It's ok to feel at the end of your tether OP. There's just no getting through to him is there? Forget the bloody church as well - the church is not married to the man, you are, & it's your life & your happiness at stake here.

When you daydream of freedom from the constant carping & nit-picking, what does your life look like? Do you feel happier & lighter without all this emotional damage being constantly inflicted on you? Are you a happier parent, more productive employee, a self-directed & fulfilled person? If any of that feels good - keep daydreaming, & start planning how you would manage the practicals. No need for any sudden decision but I think you need to give yourself permission to imagine what life could be without this arse in it bringing you down.

Rather than using an acronym, why not just refer to him as a twat?

@Lalliella

If he likes things written down write it down for him. At a time when he’s calm. Explain in writing the things that are upsetting you and tell him you’d like to have a discussion about the concepts, not about whether you’ve used the correct words or not.

For the love of Dog don't hand him any more ammunition by doing this.

People can be both autistic and narcissistic of course, which isn't the same as saying that one is often accompanied by the other.
But having had experience of both - separately and together - I see traits of both things in what you've described. The narcissism is by far the biggest issue though because they are allergic to self-reflection and just want to win and control. I know plenty of autistic people who are aware of their more tricky traits and mitigate accordingly and who absolutely don't want to hurt their loved ones. The same cannot be said about narcs.
He's unlikely to change.

Relationship counselling to help you both understand each other better. If he won’t agree to this then what is the point in staying together and enduring another 20 / 40 years of this. I mean imagine the kids have all left home and you are both retired. You want to be alone with him 24/7? Nope. Couples counselling/mediation whatever or leave.

I'm not sure relationship counselling will work here to be honest. I think it's only any good when there is an equal power balance and mutual respect and empathy. Otherwise it is just one party learning to better tolerate the other's shitty behaviour. The danger is that the "no judgement" approach ends up with the victim believing they shoulder equal blame and equal responsibility for changing. In this case, it seems pretty clear that the OP has already bent herself into all kinds of shapes for her husband, but it still isn't enough.

Sounds like he could be the centerfold for Abnormal Psychiatry next month

Hmm. My DH has certain challenging traits - he is very practical and doesn't like things done in a slapdash way, he can be a bit rigid and struggle if things are not done his way.

But if it is pointed out to him, he can say that a good relationship with me is more important than whether the dishwasher is perfectly loaded, and learn to compromise.

He can also recognise that there are things about him that I struggle with, and that I "let go" in the interests of allowing my DH to be his own person.

I think this is the test, really, of whether a relationship is workable or not. If asked, can they get outside their own heads and look into the situation objectively, or are they imprisoned in their own rigidity?

You need to be really careful with counselling. My ex and I did it. We tried several. Even a really good one couldn't pick up how the level of control exerted over my life because I am a quite outgoing person. The counselling gave him more opportunity to run me down. It took my ex calling the police on me (a very embarrassing situation as we live in a 'nice' street, the whole thing is terrifying'). To finally realise things wouldn't change. I came home from the police station and was asked 'why hadn't I called to say where I was, the dc were worried'. You will never change him.

@Goawayangryman

I'm not sure relationship counselling will work here to be honest. I think it's only any good when there is an equal power balance and mutual respect and empathy. Otherwise it is just one party learning to better tolerate the other's shitty behaviour. The danger is that the "no judgement" approach ends up with the victim believing they shoulder equal blame and equal responsibility for changing. In this case, it seems pretty clear that the OP has already bent herself into all kinds of shapes for her husband, but it still isn't enough.

This with bells on!

Divorce mediation is similar.

twitter.com/DrJessTaylor/status/1494390839258361865?t=X4n6Sd6-SAlIb8Wu5DJEhA&s=19

...Dr Jess Taylor succinctly making the same point many have made on this thread - don't label abusive men as having a certain disorder or type of personality as a way of absolving them if their own personal responsibility to be a decent human.

@TheCatterall

Relationship counselling to help you both understand each other better. If he won’t agree to this then what is the point in staying together and enduring another 20 / 40 years of this. I mean imagine the kids have all left home and you are both retired. You want to be alone with him 24/7? Nope. Couples counselling/mediation whatever or leave.

Joint counselling is not recommended when a relationship is abusive. It can give the abuser even more tools and ways to torment.

You're losing your mind
Because you are trying to medicalise & psychoanalyse
The behaviour of an arsehole

He sounds like a narcissist - have you watch Dr Ramani on You Tube? Narcissists aren’t normal people and don’t react in the same way.

blackdumpling I thought that was a haiku for a minute and was well impressed ;-)

OP, I'm so sorry you're in this situation.

Whatever label is on your husband, the bottom line is that all couples need to be able to resolve conflict in a healthy manner to have a good relationship. There will always be conflict and disagreement, because you are two separate people. That is normal.

What's not normal, or healthy, or useful, is one party refusing to resolve conflict by nitpicking whether you are allowed to use the word "very" to express your own feelings about his behaviour, for example (who the fuck fights over "very"??). That does not move you forward to resolution of the conflict. That is not listening to you and trying to understand you. You will never be able to resolve conflict if you can't listen to each other, and you will never have a healthy relationship if you can't resolve conflict.

The nitpicking over words ... it's irritating. But it's more than just irritating. It is in fact very controlling; he's trying to tell you how to feel, how to perceive his behaviour, how to react to it, and how you're allowed to express it. It's subtle and can hide behind a label of "oh he's INTJ" "Oh he's on the spectrum" "oh he's a bit of a narcissist" but actually ... the label doesn't really matter. What matters is that this behaviour is controlling and therefore unacceptable.

What would happen if you stopped trying to understand or label your husband (because you'll never COMPLETELY be able to explain his behaviour) and instead focused on understanding yourself? What is it that led you to get into a relationship with someone like this? What keeps you trapped in it? Are those healthy things, or are they unhealthy things like sunk costs fallacy, a sense of fear/obligation/guilt, family models from your own parents, etc?

Your husband isn't prioritizing your wellbeing. He can't even let you use words to accurately describe your own feelings. Only YOU can look out for yourself.

Best wishes.

Forget the analysis of personality. It doesn’t matter. You are an individual with rights and needs. He is responsible for listening and meeting your needs. You are not getting your needs met and he’s not listening to any of your needs. It’s not a healthy marriage. You’re not compatible and he’s more interested in winning than being in a healthy functioning marriage. I honestly think you’d be happier with somebody less hard work.

@CousinKrispy Thank you! Was going for a haiku vibe