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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

1000 replies

Chopinandchampagne · 13/12/2021 00:27

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

OP posts:
ESGdance · 05/02/2022 10:24

@BorsetshireBanality

I’m so sorry for your loss Chopin. Flowers

I find it hard to understand why any father would leave his wife to cope with a new-born and two young children on her own and take her phone. His property empire is all important to him.

I agree - this is appalling, neglectful and abusive behaviour.

BUT - when she is feeling the stress of this - don’t muddy it or inadvertently let that deflect on to you.

How ridiculous to have 3 mortgage free properties, plenty of savings and a portfolio of revenue streams and only one phone between them (paid for by you!)

This has nothing to do with money and everything to do with extreme coercive control.

However I assume she has an email facility (on the iPads you bought her DCs) or could ask a friend or PIL to borrow their phone or has access to a stamp, an envelope and some notepaper.

Sounds like she is in a psychological prison.

Not sure if you have seen The Puppet Master on Netflix - a hundred times much more extreme that this situation but some common threads around mind control. The girl’s Dad is an absolute hero in his approach to a terrible situation.

Wherearemymarbles · 05/02/2022 12:10

I suppose he might have genuinely needed a phone in Ireland.

I really really hope you dont pay for a new contract.
That way DD1 has to find a way to talk to you. If she genuinely wants contact with you she will find a way.

And actually a period of no contact might be just what you need!

RandomMess · 05/02/2022 12:18

He has his PAYG phone but you know doesn't him or DD1 actually using it.

LadyEloise1 · 05/02/2022 12:34

Just reading a review/description of The Puppet Master ( Netflix ) in the Guardian -
"What makes The Puppet Master unforgettable ... is its dissection of how coercive abuse works... Once fear or love or a mix of both has caused the victim to give the perpetrator their trust, all sorts of incredible lies can be believed and all kinds of humiliations endured........ browbeaten into cutting herself off from her loving family, not communicating with them unless it was to demand ever growing sums of money..... "
Sad

LB could have got a new phone in Ireland.

SoonbeSpringtime · 05/02/2022 19:53

Just a further thought about this

'How ridiculous to have 3 mortgage free properties, plenty of savings and a portfolio of revenue streams and only one phone between them (paid for by you!)'

The big providers are changing their terms and roaming charges. Not sure how any UK based contracts will be impacted where DD's located.

RachelGreeneGreep · 06/02/2022 00:16

How ridiculous to have 3 mortgage free properties, plenty of savings and a portfolio of revenue streams and only one phone between them (paid for by you!)

All of the properties etc also all, courtesy of chopin, if memory serves me correctly. Neither of them have ever worked for anything they have. Extraordinary.

UserBot9to5 · 06/02/2022 02:03

In Ireland they will be able to get a Gomo contract with internet data for €14.99 per month. Hardly a fortune. The one phone between the two of them is crazy.

tattychicken · 06/02/2022 08:47

And even more ridiculous that the one phone is with LB and not with the post partum Mum with a newborn and two young children. Shows LB's priorities, i.e. him.

LadyEloise1 · 06/02/2022 10:41

As @BorsetshireBanality writes "I find it hard to understand why any father would leave his wife to cope with a newborn and two young children on her own and take her phone."

Absolutely !!!

FGS DD1 cop on.

Did I imagine it - on a previous thread had LB and DD1 fallen out with his parents at some stage over they not agreeing to mind the children ( before dc3 was born ) ?

RandomMess · 06/02/2022 11:18

It's certainly time to stop paying DD1s phone contract after all its LB phone to use not hers.

tribpot · 06/02/2022 11:27

I assume that LB took the phone deliberately to make DD1 feel vulnerable when they are apart, so that she associates safety with being with him. There may have been no internet access possible from the iPads without that phone. (But I agree she could still have written a letter to say thank you for the presents - LB's parents could have posted it for her during one of their many visits).

I certainly wouldn't be mentioning the phone contract or renewing it by default. I would let it lapse and see what happens. My guess is DD1 will ramp up contact in the weeks leading up to the contract end, Chopin may even be permitted to see the children on a video call again.

Chopin, hope you and DD2 and DD3 have had a peaceful weekend together.

Mix56 · 06/02/2022 16:53

Well this just tells you what we already were 99% sure of.. LB has her phone that you pay for. So she may not have free access to her messages & mails at will, he may bin your messages, &/or send messages in her name.
I would at this point, say.. when You pay for her phone, its so She has ready acces to call, communicate, & for emergencies.

ChristmasPlanning · 06/02/2022 20:21

So sorry to hear about your DMIL. Thinking of you Thanks

Chopinandchampagne · 07/02/2022 10:23

Thank you everyone for all of your condolences and kind messages.

My MIL died 15 months to the day after DH and, although her death was not unexpected, we were hoping to be able to celebrate her 90th birthday. DD3 was distraught, as she was very close to her granny and used to visit her a lot in London. She had a major meltdown over the weekend, but seemed calmer afterwards. She said it was a day which she knew was coming, but she has always dreaded it. DD2 was also very upset, and in pain from having her wisdom teeth out.

I have also been very much affected, as it has brought back so many memories of DH and the happy times we spent, all together, as a family. FIL and MIL moved to be close to us after DD2 was born and we used to see them a lot, trips out, Sunday lunch at our house most weeks, the girls baking with Granny etc. They also came to France with us a number of times. FIL also had a workshop in our garden (where he went for a bit of peace and quiet, but was also brilliant at making and fixing things!). It is another link with the past, which has been removed. I have to confess that I didn't leave the house all weekend, and spoke to nobody, apart from DD2 and DD3 and DH's sister, with whom I had several long calls. She is being very brave, but I think she is still in shock and it hasn't really hit her yet. I am just praying that her DH will be ok for the foreseeable future, as he is much older than she is, and in very poor health. I have offered to take MIL's cat, whom MIL adored, as SIL is worried about having him (SIL lives on the 12th floor and her flat has a balcony, which she is worried he might be able to fall from). Sorry, I know that I am rambling.

I tried to call DD1 a couple of times over the weekend, but she didn't pick up or call back and I didn't leave a message. She had sent me a brief message on Friday, after the longer one thanking me for the gifts and explaining about the lack of 'phone. I sent a brief reply saying it was very sad news, that Granny had been a big part of their childhoods, and that I would send her the funeral details as soon as I had them. I didn't really feel up to talking to anyone but, over the weekend, I thought she might want to discuss Granny with someone, rather than grieving alone. She did speak to DH's sister, however, (who rang in error when she was trying to message and DD called her back). DD was apparently reminiscing about Granny and saying that she still uses her cookery book (one that MIL created of her favourite recipes with pictures of her and FIL baking with the DGC - they gave a copy to each DGC, so it is a lovely keepsake for them).

I don't expect DD will come to the funeral, I am not really expecting her to do so. But I wonder if she has any regrets. MIL is another person who was abruptly 'cancelled'. When she saw her at DH's funeral, this was the only time she had seen her during the last 6-7 years. She never called her or sent birthday cards and, of course, she did not tell her about her DGGD1 (or even DGGD2 - she did not resume any contact with MIL, even after she resumed contact with us).

I suppose LB took the 'phone because it is the only source of internet connection. I assume he left his PAYG 'phone, but I don't know whether it had any credit or perhaps DD just felt uncomfortable using it. She told me that the parcel had arrived on Wednesday, whereas I was informed that it was going to be delivered on Monday. Who knows?

That's the trouble, DD has often told lies in the past, to the extent where I take everything she says with a pinch of salt. I am also doubtful at LB's claim that people are using their land in Ireland - for what purpose and how does he know? I suspect that it is an excuse to move the family back, as soon as possible, and before I have any opportunity to visit. At least it saves any awkwardness - with their going back early and MIL's death, it should not seem too peculiar to LB's parents that I haven't visited. As some posters have said, it doesn't really matter what they think, but I don't want to reinforce any views which they already hold that I am an uncaring parent. I expect that they have been full of sympathy for DD on the loss of her DGM.

I don't know what to do about the 'phone contract. Thank you UserBot for the referral to Gomo, which sounds like a good deal. I don't like the idea of DD not having her own 'phone. I know that they 'share' it, so that nothing I send is private or confidential, but at least DD's access is not curtailed. Once the contract becomes a household expense which LB is paying towards, I know that he will be dictating terms of her use. the alternative is to change the UK 'phone to calls only.

Thank you for the reviews of 'The Puppet Master', but I don't feel that I am quite up to watching it at present. It sounds too close to home.The problem is the insidious way in which DD has been slowly brainwashed so that she now believes everything that LB says, without question, to the extent where even loved ones who care for her, can be perceived as enemies. It will get worse when they go back to Ireland, as there will literally be no other influences in her life.

OP posts:
Gardeniafleur · 07/02/2022 11:23

Oh Chopin. I don’t really have any words, just reaching out the old hand of sympathy. What an unutterably rubbish period for you. I hope that DD2&3 are giving you lots of love.

I agree with what most people say on this thread, I’ve really had my eyes opened by those who have been like DD1 in the past and how they were thinking and what made them leave. Very thought-provoking.

tribpot · 07/02/2022 11:57

at least DD's access is not curtailed
Except it already is - when he takes the phone to Ireland. And really you've no idea to what extent she's allowed to have access to it. I think continuing to pay for it thinking it provides an escape route from LB is just playing into his hands.

Lots of posters have said that you need to let DD1 feel the full consequence of her decision. I would leave it to her to ask you to pay for a contract (and explain why she can't pay for it herself). And I certainly wouldn't pay for a contract with data charges in it.

I thought she might want to discuss Granny with someone, rather than grieving alone
Again - let her decide this. She's a grown woman, she can decide how she wants to grieve. You don't have to fix everything for her.

Take care of yourself first, MIL's death even at a ripe old age has brought back painful memories. And such a shame you weren't able to celebrate her 90th.

ESGdance · 07/02/2022 12:47

Seems that she is in an emotional state of “dissociation” which has allowed her to not feel the traumatic pain of separation from you all for years, the death of her father and now the death of her grandmother

RachelGreeneGreep · 07/02/2022 13:49

I have to confess that I didn't leave the house all weekend, and spoke to nobody, apart from DD2 and DD3 and DH's sister, with whom I had several long calls.

I think that's a good thing to do, every now and then. Just hunker down and take some time to oneself. We all need to do that from time to time, imo.

ShangPie · 07/02/2022 20:03

Sending you Flowers Chopin. What a horrible situation with the lost 90th birthday and coinciding anniversaries.

I’m a lurker who’s followed several of your threads and never felt I could add anything to the excellent advice you receive from the many other posters. However, something stood out for me in your last update - your DD returned a call from your DH’s sister but didn’t return yours.

This could be a totally mercenary move in that she was hoping for financially beneficial news (although this would be a damning assessment so close to DGM’s passing), or it could be that she acknowledges (consciously or not) that she can’t support you in the way you seek.

Of course, you are right to grieve and feel the weight of the past in your own way and in your own time, but perhaps DD is less affected by this as her thoughts are tied up in LB, her children, Ireland, etc. It’s possible she no longer feels strong ties to her DGM - as you said, DD hadn’t been in touch for several years.

It’s also possible she is able to reminisce at a superficial level with an aunt, but be unable to grieve with you without acknowledging her lack of contact and distance.

Again, the advice to treat her as a niece seems very appropriate here, especially when DD3 needs your presence.

KOKO Flowers

SueblueNZ · 07/02/2022 20:18

My condolences on your loss, Chopin.
For what it's worth, I think it would be an excellent idea for you to change DD's phone plan to calls only. Let him pay for internet access.

UserBot9to5 · 07/02/2022 20:31

Yeh, please don't watch The Puppet Master! I could hardly handle it 14 andca half years after leaving.

You've had a tough time lately. Have you watched The Queen's Gambit. Im loving it. No coercive themes (so far).

Billybagpuss · 08/02/2022 07:35

@UserBot9to5

Yeh, please don't watch The Puppet Master! I could hardly handle it 14 andca half years after leaving.

You've had a tough time lately. Have you watched The Queen's Gambit. Im loving it. No coercive themes (so far).

Actually what I loved about this was it didn’t go there, I was waiting for some form of abuse as it was almost setting it up for it and it didn’t it was just a good series.
Chopinandchampagne · 08/02/2022 08:36

Thanks everyone. I watched 'Queen's Gambit' a while ago. I used to play competitive chess years ago, so really enjoyed it. Now, I have the attention span of a gnat, so I prefer bridge - at least then I can blame the cards or my partner (only joking Grin)

SIL is making plans for MIL's funeral, but I think that I will probably go to represent us all. DD1 is driving back to Ireland today and wouldn't be able to fly over to London, as she is not vaccinated. DD3 is distraught at the prospect of attending the same church as DH's funeral and I am sure that it would be very bad for her mental health. I have suggested that we have our own ceremony and celebration of Granny's life next month, on what would have been her 90th birthday (It's also the cat's birthday and we celebrate pet birthdays - any excuse for a party Grin!). I haven't discussed it with DD2 yet, as she is still in great pain from having her wisdom teeth out, and isn't really up to talking. But I know that SIL and BIL will understand and that, if they don't go, it is no reflection on the deep love they had for their DGM.

I had a good conversation with DD1 yesterday, reminiscing about DH and MIL and DH's aunt. She would like to see any photos of DH as a baby, so that she can compare him to DGS. She said that she is emotional at leaving the house, as it was where she had experienced her 'highest highs and lowest lows'. They are going to sell it 'as seen', but may not get their money back, as LB has various unfinished projects. They are also selling the property which they rent out, as the Council now insist on a licence for rental property and charge a fee, which means that it is not economic for them to continue renting it out. Also, they have spent nearly all their savings, so need the money for the property in Ireland.

It does concern me that they have not put much thought into what they will do to earn a living in Ireland, and that their capital and savings may be eroded quite quickly, if they don't come up with a plan. DD said that the land is very wet, to the extent where they can't even grow potatoes, so it sounds as though their ability to grow crops may be limited. Needless to say, LB apparently has some scheme in mind to harness the water from the river for power in some way...! The house is also quite dilapidated, without proper heating or insulation (there is no loft, as apparently it is a converted barn), so will need a lot spending on it. DD says that the cost of living is much higher in Ireland than anticipated, especially building materials.

They are also having difficulty in accessing health care, which is a worry, as all the GP lists are full. They are going to apply to be put on a list, which I understand means they will be registered with a practice, but this is not ideal if it is a long way from home. Anyway, there is nothing I can do about any of this - as a previous poster said 'not my circus, not my monkeys'.

I said that I had received a nice card from the PIL and DD said that they had said that they were going to send it. They have only seen PIL twice since returning to the UK, and PIL are upset that they are going back to Ireland so quickly.

On a more positive note, we tentatively agreed that I will visit them in Ireland when the weather gets warmer. She also said that she would let me know when she arrived back safely. Once I know that she is back, I am happy to leave things for a while. I don't need to hear from her that often, just to know that she is ok. DD2 and DD3 are the ones in need of my support at present, as well as SIL.

OP posts:
tableanadchairs · 08/02/2022 08:50

Oh Choppin l have been following your threads without posting but my heart sank at this latest update.
DD seems to be laying the foundations that money is going to be in short supply at some point in the not so distant future.
Prepare yourself…..

ESGdance · 08/02/2022 09:05

@tableanadchairs

Oh Choppin l have been following your threads without posting but my heart sank at this latest update. DD seems to be laying the foundations that money is going to be in short supply at some point in the not so distant future. Prepare yourself…..
Yep.

Seems that the STEM whizz kid isn’t so good at basic arithmetic.

Seems erratic and impulsive can be added to his other qualities.

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