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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

1000 replies

Chopinandchampagne · 13/12/2021 00:27

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

OP posts:
LadyEloise1 · 08/02/2022 09:16

Thinking of you @Chopinandchampagne.
There is no NHS in Ireland.
The children will have free GP care.
DD1 and LB will have to pay - €65 approximately for GP visit if they don't qualify for a medical card.
Prescriptions aren't free either.
I was a bit shocked lately when I was charged €35 for my GP to send a prescription to my local pharmacy via email.
I'm in Dublin and it will be cheaper in the country/ rural areas.
Obviously NHS is in Northern Ireland as it's part of UK.

SirVixofVixHall · 08/02/2022 10:50

Sadly I also think that foundations are being laid for yet another cash request.
Honestly they are both adults, and parents themselves. They have stupidly bought a property in order to be self sufficient yet didn't even check what the land was like, they need to live with the consequences of their actions in every way or they won’t ever grow up.
I would not continue paying for the mobile, they will get one anyway, and your dd’s use of it is already curtailed, it will make no difference whatsoever to whether LB “allows” your dd to use it. You need to affirm that she is an adult now and an independent person making her own choices in life. At thirty some of my friends had parents who’d given them a lump sum towards a house deposit, but nobody had parents who were still paying for something like a telephone. It is keeping her a childlike dependent, while she can criticise your choice of gifts and accuse you of not respecting her life choices …
In your place I would have reached straight talking mode by now. I am shocked that your dd is reminiscing with you about her Granny, the Granny she shut out and hadn’t seen for seven years. It all seems highly manipulative . DH has a family member with a PD who behaves like this, and I was in a relationship with a controlling/abusive man for a few years in my in my twenties, this behaviour is very familiar to me, the push pull of cruel/nice.
It is one thing understanding that LB is a vile and controlling person, he is, but your dd is not behaving well either. She doesn’t seem to see you at all, the Mum who brought her up, who sends presents, pays for things, gives out love. She treats you terribly, you have lost your anchor in your DH and still your daughter is callous and cruel towards you.
You still behave as though you are in the wrong and need to make amends. You are not in the wrong here Chopin.

LadyEloise1 · 08/02/2022 10:54

I agree with @SirVixofVixHall

ESGdance · 08/02/2022 11:21

“That's the trouble, DD has often told lies in the past, to the extent where I take everything she says with a pinch of salt.”

This is quite a profound situation. I can’t imagine what she was achieving by lying - but assume manipulation for her own gain? But it just means that you have zero trust in them and really no prospect or expectation of a functional mutually respectful reciprocal relationship.

It seems that there are much more shades of grey in this in that she is in a coercively controlling relationship and may discharge the stress away from him out of the relationship and project on to you instead - but her propensity to lie and manipulate even without him in the picture makes the 100% victim stance harder to accept and infact maybe she is also an emotionally dysfunctional and abusive person (as shown in her treatment of all of her relationships) but he is just more dysfunctional and abusive than her. She seems to lack empathy and sensitivity for anyone else but is highly sensitive to herself.

It must be very hard to know that they have now left - ahead of attending her grandmothers funeral and deliberately before there was any opportunity for you to meet your DGS.

They sound chaotic and impulsive - but the have expensive and extensive education and post graduate training to tap into if they need to earn money - so please don’t bail them out.

You must be very raw right now - please turn your back and tend to your own wounds and the suffering of your other DDs as the loss of their DGM will just amplify the pain they are already processing around their DF. They will also be concerned for your emotional well-being and physical health - so show them how to regroup, have self compassion, and how to focus on healing to eventually cope with a new chapter without the people we love in it. Very hard yards for you all over the coming months. Take it easy and drop the nonsense around DD1 - baby born safe and well, they have scarpered off on their unhinged adventure without any thought to anyone else. Let them go.

CheltenhamLady · 08/02/2022 11:29

I also agree that making you party to the financial issues has an agenda I am afraid.

Be prepared for it.

I really feel for you OP. This is a horrible no-win situation for you.

danny735 · 08/02/2022 12:17

Hi Chopin,

So many parts of your story resonate with me on so many levels.

My DF was a deeply controlling man (who likely has an undiagnosed PD). DM was emotionally vulnerable and he preyed on her.

DM had a professional job and was the breadwinner. However she was tied to DF because they had three children very quickly (my DS followed a year later by twins - my DB and I). With three small children and scarce family support she did not feel she could manage alone.

DF did various odd jobs in his workshop (renovating old furniture etc). He has never held down a 9-5 job in his life but always had a new "project". He was volatile and had an explosive temper - everyone walked on eggshells around him.

When we were 9, we moved from the lovely suburban town we had lived in just outside of Dublin and moved to a desolate part of the west of Ireland. My DF convinced my mother to sell the small house she had been the sole owner of, to build a large house on a plot of land he owned. Now they were financially as well as emotionally enmeshed.

The impact was immediate and severe.

DM was isolated from her friends and support network. All three of us DC struggled with the transition and felt isolated. It had a catastrophic impact on everyone's MH and there have been long term consequences.

I don't mean to hijack your thread Chopin - I'm trying to warn you. I think DD1 will have a very difficult time in Ireland. The cost of living is very high and the land in the west of Ireland is quite poor quality. It will be very difficult for them to make the small holding profitable.

It will be excruciating for you to think of her isolated and struggling, with three small DC, including a small newborn, in a miserable, unheated house. You need to let her feel the discomfort (if you cushion experience this for her she will be in this situation for longer). They will likely ask for financial support before long - don't give it.
Now more than ever you need to detach as LB will try to blame whatever he can on you when things inevitably go wrong.

As you have said, focus on DD2, DD3 and SIL. Focus on yourself and increase your self care. You must be feeling so very fragile right now. I hope MIL's cat settles in well and brings you comfort and joy. Take care of yourself.

Peridot1 · 08/02/2022 13:08

I am so sorry for the loss of your lovely MIL Chopin.

I am pretty speechless at the stupidity of LB and your DD however. I think LB may well find you can’t just ‘harness water from the river’. I can’t believe they are bringing 3 small children including a newborn to live in a cold damp house with no heating or insulation. It’s utter madness.

Feministwoman · 08/02/2022 13:36

Oh dear Chopin

My heart goes out to you.

DD1 is lining you up for more funds. Please just don't give her LB or the family any further funding.

tattychicken · 08/02/2022 14:01

Hope your new feline family member is settling in well. X

Billybagpuss · 08/02/2022 14:21

Hi Chopin who broached the subject of a visit first?

I agree with the others they will blow through the sale money quite quickly

forrestgreen · 08/02/2022 14:34

I agree with @SirVixofVixHall with the addition of adding in the Amazon account issue.
She needs to stand on her two adult feet and fail if she's any chance of coming out of this.

But tbh what would that look like, you'd have to buy/rent her and ch a home as they'll have blown their money.

ESGdance · 08/02/2022 14:55

@Billybagpuss

Hi Chopin who broached the subject of a visit first?

I agree with the others they will blow through the sale money quite quickly

Maybe even before the houses have been sold ….. so watch out for any “loan” requests.

Have you decided to respond to the IL card? Personally I wouldn’t (you acknowledged it with your DD which is enough) - as I wouldn’t be opening a dialogue with them. They will likely be struggling after the DGC have gone (although only seeing the newborn twice gives me a huge clue that that relationship is in the rocks) - don’t get involved with their bleating - they have never been there for you.

Wherearemymarbles · 08/02/2022 14:58

Time to cut the apron strings I’m afraid chopin.
She is a fully grown woman and its high time they stood on there own two feet.

As for a visit, probably just to pull on your heart strings when you see what a dump they live in.

SecretDoor · 08/02/2022 15:00

Did you get the impression DD1 wants to go to Ireland given the issues? Is she making a choice if just going along with LB? It seems utter madness to move from a warm dry house in England to a damp wreck in Ireland in February with 3 small children. Does she really want to do it?

ESGdance · 08/02/2022 15:01

@Wherearemymarbles

Time to cut the apron strings I’m afraid chopin. She is a fully grown woman and its high time they stood on there own two feet.

As for a visit, probably just to pull on your heart strings when you see what a dump they live in.

Or just a carrot to dangle - with another CASH injection required in upfront advance…
2DogsOnMySofa · 08/02/2022 15:03

If she comes to you to ask for money for medical bills, can I suggest, if you want to help her, that you pay the medical practice directly, and not send her (or him) the money directly

Trampoline11 · 08/02/2022 15:11

Please don't get drawn into their financial troubles. As mentioned previously - and I appreciate that the way you speak is probably not the same as me - could you be a bit light and breezy and say something like - thank goodness you have those properties to sell to make the Ireland home as you want it.

Sorry to hear about your lovely MIL. You just don't need them and their nonsense at the moment. I know she is your daughter but this is so unfair on you x

WhoAre · 08/02/2022 15:29

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Bigboysmademedoit · 08/02/2022 15:39

I’m afraid I agree with the previous posters - they have gone from owning 3 homes to one pretty poor one and needing a shed load of money thrown at it. The West of Ireland is beautiful but there are reasons locals move away and land is cheap. They are manoeuvring for another cash request - maybe the feel there’s money from MIL. Tread carefully. Sell your property in France - ring fence that money where it’s not immediately accessible - stop paying for phones, Amazon etc - they’re grown ups with children. As long as you facilitate this your DD will be cushioned. She needs to experience the reality. Concentrate yourself, DD2 & 3 and your SIL. For me, moving prior to your MIL’s funeral, knowing she can’t get back, can’t support you and her sisters is callous and makes her reminiscing about her Granny seem very cold and calculating. I’d expect the first ‘emergency’ cash request shortly - probably along the lines of their money is tied up in house sales and they need funds immediately. Take care.

Angelswithflirtyfaces · 08/02/2022 16:29

How sad that they can arrange a visit in Ireland with all the planning and money that entails but not 'grace' you to have a visit now.
I do wonder what game they are continually playing here, my guess is the long one.
I like other posters used to feel sorry for your DD, but really feel she just continues to prolong the unfairness of this saga.
Why oh why do you feel so responsible for her?
You will never do or say the right thing sadly so let the overwhelming responsibility go.
She is a grown woman with three children and a husband, has chosen her life, over and over.
I get we all want to protect and support our children but the only support is financial.
The only relationship is on their terms.
Its like addicts, sometimes they need to hit a all time low, to self reflect and see the reality.
I think they may be grooming you for a big payout then LB will make sure you are out of the picture for sure.
How much hurt are you prepared to endure for motherly love?
Its ok to say no more without guilt.
Just because she acts 15 does not mean she is. Grant her the gift of making mistakes.

RachelGreeneGreep · 08/02/2022 16:40

I agree with previous posters. She is paving the way to ask for more money. If memory serves me correctly, the two properties in the U.K. were handed to them, and the latest property was bought with inheritance. And they have never had to put their hands in their pockets or work to earn anything.
Therefore they appreciate nothing because they never had to earn it. And feel entitled to continue to demand more and more.

I'm fearful for you, OP, I think the opportunity to visit them will be accompanied by a demand for money.

BorsetshireBanality · 08/02/2022 17:06

It seems like they have bought a patch of bog and dilapidated buildings, sight unseen.

I’m sure they were (gently) warned but proceeded anyway.

Please don’t pay the price of their foolishness. You are temporarily being softened up. There will be requests to pay for medical bills and farming bits/stock etc. etc. Your invitation to visit is to lighten your bank account, not for the pleasure of your company.

Please take care!

RandomMess · 08/02/2022 17:21

Only offer I would make is that her and the DGC could live with you temporarily should they be destitute and homeless clearly LB not included!

billy1966 · 08/02/2022 17:35

OP,

That call was clearly manipulative.
As is a possible visit to Ireland.

All calculated to extract what they feel strongly entitled to, your money that is.

I would pull back and be very busy.

Your daughter is far more aligned personality wise to LB, than I can understand you would like to admit to yourself.

No one forced her to cut her grandmother off.

Any requests for funds should be met with a benign "you'll figure it out".

I also believe allowing the phone/amazon accounts to lapse is wise.

She has chosen to have 3 children and is 30, more than old enough to be paying her way.

I think you deserve peace in this next chapter of your life.

Keeping a safe distance from their desire to exploit you is key to that.

Focus on your other two daughters.

Flowers
danny735 · 08/02/2022 17:45

I'm anticipating a loan request "until the funds from the house sales in England come through".

The loan will never be repaid of course. This strategy gained them 10k in the past.

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