Are we courting, even if he’s not single?

[Olivia8484]

So...in a nutshell..I’ve fallen for a guy I work with. He’s in a long term relationship and has one child. I also have one child and currently separated from my partner.

I know it’s wrong to feel so attracted to him and to want to talk to him and casually hang out during work. I actually don’t know how he feels and whether he just enjoys the attention (although I’m subtle and he’s not yet aware I’m separated).

We have lots of deep conversations, we tease each other and talk about sex jokingly every time we meet for lunch (not sex with each other but jokes about sex and past experiences). Not as many times but we’re comfortable with each other. He mentions his partner casually and is a good dad. We’ve never kissed or touched inappropriately. We’ve hugged once and he pulled me in by the waist with one arm. Other than that, it’s all banter and none sexual flirting.

I’m a thrill seeker. I don’t know if I truly want him or just enjoy the attention. I don’t believe he would ever overstep and be suggestive, although I don’t know if I would mind. At the same time, I feel he’s like my soulmate with how much connection we have, and sometimes wonder if he’s happy in his relationship, which he is very guarded about.

I know I’m going to get a swarm of people hammering me for being naive and also assuming I’m trying to break up the relationship and steal him. I just need a pep-talk. An honest pep-talk because I’ve not talked to anybody about this.

[quote MMmomDD]@Olivia8484

London is also a place densely populated with people, half of them male. And a share of them aren’t in a relationship.

Get online, swipe. Join a gym, or some hobby group. Meet with friends - at least before they lock is down again….
You can meet someone available, if you aren’t hang up on this guy.[/quote]
Surprisingly people are not very friendly here. I’m originally from Newcastle so 11 years later and I don’t feel like I’ve settled in but stayed here for my son who is almost 11.

@Rainbowqueeen

Courting sounds romantic. From an outsiders perspective the situation you have described does not sound romantic. It sounds tawdry (another old fashioned word) and dangerous for you. Dangerous because there’s no doubt in my mind that you would be the one blamed for any impact on his relationship, the one in danger of losing your reputation and your job. Not saying that is right because it isn’t, but that is the risk you run.

You are deserving of love but the more this continues the more you are limiting your chances of finding it. You need to create distance. Invent stuff you have to do at lunch. Start getting to know other colleagues more. Do what you need to do to move on and put yourself in a position to find that love

@Rainbowqueeen

Thank you for offering this perspective. I agree with this.

While people have been harsh, they have also been fair. The way you are acting currently is pathetic and not the actions of a decent person. You need to recognise that so you can change it. Telling yourself that you're just a romantic is a total lie.

@me4real

I used to 'date' married men until Mumsnet helped me see how unethical it was (I know most people don't need to be told. *@Olivia8484* I suggest reading all the threads where devastated wives find out what the husband is doing. Rewrite married men as off limits to you again.

I haven’t actually shared any past sexual experiences. I tease him for the stories he shares about his youth.

Maybe I'm reaching here but do you think this crush could be partly a mid-life thing for you? You want to reexperience things that you experienced when you were younger.

The set up is so like when you fancy a boy at school or whatever. The main thing that has you hung up on this particular guy is that he's there, so you can get the 'next installment' regularly. You could get out more (as much as we're allowed and you can) widen the circle of men you interact with to include more vetting eligible single ones.

I think it's an attempt to pack in experiences of youth, knowing that you're approaching 40 in a few years. (I'm not criticizing, I'm 44 so I've been there.)

Late 30s can be a difficult age in some ways.

@me4real

Thank you for sharing this. It’s very insightful and I appreciate your advice and kindness. Will definitely step back. No more rubbish.

@Flowers500

While people have been harsh, they have also been fair. The way you are acting currently is pathetic and not the actions of a decent person. You need to recognise that so you can change it. Telling yourself that you're just a romantic is a total lie.

I have not excused my behaviour and I expected the response not to be favourable. But nastiness is not ok. Say your hard truth. I can take it.

There are several words for what you are doing but courting is not one of them!

OP it does depend on what you write as to how you are received. Your op is provocative, especially to women whose have been cheated on, people have responded according to the description of your behaviour, actions and the way you communicate. The agony and the ecstacy. You wrote a post, about an unpleasany situation, you got a response. No one can nurse you through it, soothe you, enabling you further. He's treating you like shit, using you, nor supporting you. He shouldn't be and you need to watch out in future for the same, if you are lonely/isolated you are vulnerable, protect yourself from being harmed and causing it.

@Olivia8484

The place you are is what you make of it. I have lived in different countries over the years. I am not originally from London either, and people are people. With some effort, you can always find your tribe.
London is not some homogenous group of people.

@OakRowan

OP it does depend on what you write as to how you are received. Your op is provocative, especially to women whose have been cheated on, people have responded according to the description of your behaviour, actions and the way you communicate. The agony and the ecstacy. You wrote a post, about an unpleasany situation, you got a response. No one can nurse you through it, soothe you, enabling you further. He's treating you like shit, using you, nor supporting you. He shouldn't be and you need to watch out in future for the same, if you are lonely/isolated you are vulnerable, protect yourself from being harmed and causing it.

@OakRowan I appreciate that and don’t have any trouble with the truth. I know exactly what I’ve said and I’ve been cheated on in the past and know how it feels, hence why I’m tormented by guilt. Deep down I also know there’s nothing going on here and even if there was, it’s not what I really really want. I’ve been in denial but I’m definitely stepping away from this. Thank you for your response and advice.

I don't mean I think you are a victim of him, you have responsibility. Owning that, recieving the truths you asked for and doing something about it, without churning endlessly about shame and horror and guilt, get over it, move on.
Especially think about/seeking support or therapy for the extreme way you have ended up thinking about him, how it began, the emotional roller coaster stuff. Its not sustainable, or healthy to go through life feeling everything so acutely and chasing excitement in damaging ways emotionally. Counselling, CBT for the thought distortion type stuff maybe, you're separated and need to sort yourself out so this doesn't keep happening to you. You've got to model this for your child as they grow up, this is an excellent opportunity to change everything that's making you unhappy, without ruining anyone's life including your own. Use it.

I agree with @OakRowan. People are getting (rightfully) pissed off at you because you see yourself as a victim. People are calling bull on the whole "naive" thing, you know what you're doing. Own it, grow a spine and work on yourself.

@NynaeveSedai

Courting??? No you are sailing close to an affair. He's pretending he's not trying to cheat and you're getting kicks from turning the head of a married man. A pair of twats, basically.

Just what I was thinking

‘Courting’??? How pathetic are you…
‘I’m a thrill seeker’ - try white water rafting or sky diving then.

@OakRowan

I don't mean I think you are a victim of him, you have responsibility. Owning that, recieving the truths you asked for and doing something about it, without churning endlessly about shame and horror and guilt, get over it, move on. Especially think about/seeking support or therapy for the extreme way you have ended up thinking about him, how it began, the emotional roller coaster stuff. Its not sustainable, or healthy to go through life feeling everything so acutely and chasing excitement in damaging ways emotionally. Counselling, CBT for the thought distortion type stuff maybe, you're separated and need to sort yourself out so this doesn't keep happening to you. You've got to model this for your child as they grow up, this is an excellent opportunity to change everything that's making you unhappy, without ruining anyone's life including your own. Use it.

@OakRowan. I definitely don’t think I’m a victim and I understand the implications of my actions, which is why I need to sort the other issues out. Your advice is helpful and now it is all off my chest, I can focus on what’s important and how to move forward. Just as an added point, I’m not in love and dreaming of the sunset with this man. I’m choosing to be infatuated and distracted from my reality m. That said, it’s not right either. Again, thank you.

@Flowers500

I agree with *@OakRowan*. People are getting (rightfully) pissed off at you because you see yourself as a victim. People are calling bull on the whole "naive" thing, you know what you're doing. Own it, grow a spine and work on yourself.

@Flowers500 please let’s not get hung up on the word “naive” and I’m certainly not suggesting that I’m a “victim”. I lead a career freeing victims from real terror. this is my own doing and I am well aware that I need to fix up! We’re humans and some of our cock-ups are worse than others!

OP, just let it fade out. So many of us have had these crushes. Don't let the moral police on here have you think otherwise.

It is a crush and it's fun, I get that. He however probably has this flirty banter with loads of women... I know the type. We all do... theres always one.

Feeling what you feel is not wrong! Acting on it or encouraging it would be a very very bad move. You'll get over it, but to do that you must stop feeding it. That will take discipline but trust me, this kind of thing always ends in a shitshow. Every time.

Ignore the posters calling you a prick, or a cunt, or pathetic, or cringe. These women have probably been cheated on, so their ability to add anything constructive to these conversations is limited. They are bashing the OW via you. Ignore ignore.

Now make tomorrow Day 1 of no more flirty banter. Switch up on him. Be professional and friendly but put a guard up. Avoid him wherever you can. Good luck

Olivia, I am glad that you’re determined to make better choices. Developing an illicit validation dynamic with this man at the expense of his family diminishes you. And I consider the sex jokes and his regaling you/your teasing him re his youthful sexploits to be inappropriate flirting that goes beyond banter.

You didn’t elaborate on the circumstances around the hugging and his pulling you in by the waist with one arm. I would consider the waist movement to be an intimate gesture. And hugs can certainly vary. These touches may seem safe, but not when there is already a simmering current.

Now that you will be working from home, you may be tempted to ‘hang out’ with him by video calls, messaging, etc. Don’t. You need to actively break this spell. Distance yourself and channel the energy elsewhere. If you have cases with him, keep it all professional. Be prepared if he attempts to hoover you.

Good luck, Olivia.

@Sonaftersonafterson

OP, just let it fade out. So many of us have had these crushes. Don't let the moral police on here have you think otherwise.

It is a crush and it's fun, I get that. He however probably has this flirty banter with loads of women... I know the type. We all do... theres always one.

Feeling what you feel is not wrong! Acting on it or encouraging it would be a very very bad move. You'll get over it, but to do that you must stop feeding it. That will take discipline but trust me, this kind of thing always ends in a shitshow. Every time.

Ignore the posters calling you a prick, or a cunt, or pathetic, or cringe. These women have probably been cheated on, so their ability to add anything constructive to these conversations is limited. They are bashing the OW via you. Ignore ignore.

Now make tomorrow Day 1 of no more flirty banter. Switch up on him. Be professional and friendly but put a guard up. Avoid him wherever you can. Good luck

She’s welcome to ignore them, but many posters are telling her things that her friends won’t say to her face.

We’ve probably all had (or been) the friend who has done this. And made herself look really pathetic. And lost her self-respect. And possibly her job. And missed out on the chance of finding a partner. And probably lost some friends because of it, because she’s shown she has poor boundaries around married men and can can’t be trusted.

But I agree, we all know the type of man who uses women like the OP for a cheap ego-boost.

I've never once called my mate

• a cunt
• pathetic
• silly cow
• dickhead

....just a few of the names people on this post have called the OP.

It's not helpful or giving them a "head wobble" it's people taking a cheap shot at someone who is clearly struggling.

Well said. This has been an unpleasant example of people being abusive and unproductive...whilst telling OP to have self respect.

You haven't got a partner. You're starved of attention. You aren't a teenager with a crush on a teacher - stop behaving like one.

This man isn't your soulmate. He's got someone and they've got a child.

Find someone single, and stop being so silly.

I’ve never once had a friend say they were “courting” a man who has a partner, FFS.

@Sonaftersonafterson

I've never once called my mate * a cunt * pathetic * silly cow * dickhead

....just a few of the names people on this post have called the OP.

It's not helpful or giving them a "head wobble" it's people taking a cheap shot at someone who is clearly struggling.

I’ve never called my friend a cunt, the other ones I would happily say to the OP’s face if she was my friend. I think she needs to hear the honest truth so she can change herself

The only thing you are courting here is disaster.

OP, I mean this kindly but you don’t need to be naive to know this is wrong. The only thing you need to do is put yourself in his partners situation, how would you feel if your partner was doing this at work, knowing full well you and his child were at home.

As the saying goes….
Do not do unto others as you would that they should do unto you.