Argument at Christmas meal…

[Violet4]

NC for this one. DH’s parents are away this Christmas who live locally and my parents live 4 hours away. We generally have a tradition each year as everyone gets on very well where we will do a pre Xmas get together myself, DH, in laws, my parents, SIL/BIL (SIL has children we do not yet). Is generally always a nice evening out and has been going on for about 5-6 years now since married.

Anyway tonight we had this meal, went to a local french restaurant, all well - drinks flowing but not to an excessive extent that I was aware of. The bill came at the end, bill agreed to be split 4 ways. My father insisted on paying, only at this point I noticed he was quite drunk at the table. Really nice thought but we all insisted no, this went back and forth to the point where it got incredibly awkward. In the end bill agreed to be split 4 ways between couples but he became a bit grumpy, subject changed all fine. Then my mum who had forgotten her glasses, handed me her card and asked me to put it in the machine for her, I misheard what she said and replied “sorry, what did you say?” Across the table. At which point my father said “for f**cks sake Violet4 just sort it out stop making a fuss.” Myself and my mother looked across at him at the table confused, as it was so out of context and I explained to him the only issue was I hadn’t been able to hear my mother. Again all fine.

Meal ended, bit of a strange atmosphere at the end but nevermind, all said goodbye lovely meal etc. Restaurant is a short walk home so myself DH and parents began the walk.

As soon as my PIL and SIL were out of ear shot, my Dad absolutely lost it started asking “what the hell was your problem at the table I saw the way you two were looking at me” , we were absolutely bemused and explained he was making something out of nothing and just drunk, this caused him to get more and more angry resulted in him screaming in the street, swearing, called us a “pair of pr*cks” , shouting at us saying JUST WALK AWAY, but then kept trying to walk past us first. Clearly absolutely hammered drunk. Almost squaring up to us, nostrils flaring really really frightening. All got very emotional and very very nasty, DH walked ahead with myself and my Mother, he trailed behind stormed off somewhere then I heard him come in about 20 mins after us. They are staying at ours. I got home in tears, as did my mother. Now everyone asleep and I’ve been wide awake all night. Obviously they live 4 hours away so nowhere else for him to stay and really sad as we only see them once a month or so. It was honestly frightening, I’ve never seen him like that.

Now I know people say “this is out of character”, I am 34 years old and drunk or otherwise I have NEVER seen my father behave in that way, ever. Nor has my Mother and her reaction tonight you could tell she was utterly shell shocked afterwards. We have a very close relationship we speak daily on the phone and she tells me every little disagreement they’ve ever had etc. I really believe her that he’s never done this before.
I can’t piece together why this has happened tonight. He recently lost his mother (my grandmother) and he himself has been quite unwell with Covid. Maybe linked to that but I just don’t know why this behaviour manifested out of absolutely nothing.

Anyway if you have got this far, thank you. I don’t really know what I am posting for, I’ve been awake anxious about the morning for most of the night and not sure how to navigate this tommorrow. We have plans with SIL and her kids before they head off tomorrow and I don’t even think I can face being around him after last night, despite the fact he’s in the guest room as we speak…

Thank you x

@UniversalAunt

‘ I don't think I've ever heard about a mother who has become drunk on a perfectly civilised family night out (supposedly after having their pride hurt when their offer to pay was declined) and aggressively lashed out at their spouse and adult child, including physically squaring up to and intimidating them.’

I suggest that you get out more or read more Mumsnet.
Aggressive behaviours & events are common place in family life, irrespective of sex, the style, context & content vary.

"Get out more". Crikey. I'm not going to entertain a discussion that hinges on the idea that sex has no link to violent and aggressive behaviour. We all know that's just not true and there are decades worth of research and statistics to prove it. For every thread you find on mumsnet about an agressive woman, there will be a hundred about agressive men. Recognising established facts and behaviour patterns and calling that behaviour out when you see it is not misandry as some seem to be desperately trying to assert.

It's his first Christmas without his mum. I think kindness is key here.

@Outlyingtrout

And to the person suggesting he chose to abuse two women because he perceived them as weaker than him, that’s absolute garbage. He yelled at them because they were his family.

I think you missed the bit that said he's a man @Honeymint, so he isn't a human being worthy of any understanding of grief or health problems

I don't think I've ever heard about a mother who has become drunk on a perfectly civilised family night out (supposedly after having their pride hurt when their offer to pay was declined) and aggressively lashed out at their spouse and adult child, including physically squaring up to and intimidating them. Let's not pretend this isn't male pattern behaviour.

You should have seen my kids cousin at a family event. She's a mother by the way and not a teenager, mid 40s. Her behaviour was so awful it was agreed in ex's family that she won't be invited to anything again. The main target of her aggression was a male, same age group as her and twice her size. Fortunately for her he wasn't drunk and he was in control of himself or she could have found herself in a very difficult situation. It wasn't the first time, she had done similar at a family wedding a few years earlier.

OP hasn’t come back.

As a few PPs suggest would be speaking privately to your mum to see if this really WAS a one off.

If it was, would see if an apology is forthcoming and express your shock and upset, then move on.

That sounds really upsetting. I'm the same as you OP I'd have been up worrying too. I hope everything is ok and you get it sorted. Perhaps the loss of his mother and being ill has hit him harder emotionally than he has let on and the alcohol brought it all out.

99% chance it is to do with his grief and still not feeling 100% from having covid.

Grief gets you in the weirdest ways even if you think you are fine.

Don't feel anxious about it, he seems to have been going through a lot at the moment and just blew a fuse.

Hope you all have a lovely day.

Surely if he is a lovely man who is never violent or even aggressive he'll be horrified by his own behaviour. I would be making sure he knew just how upsetting and scary he was. It's not the same as getting angry and huffing and shouting a bit away from others- he was threatening in his behaviour, and words, to you, his loved ones.

If he was sorry, troubled by his own behaviour and very contrite-ok. Thinks through medicine changes/other issues and sees drs if a problem. If he doubles down or refuses to accept it, then you have a big problem. I wouldn't see my dad if he squared up to me once, ever. I don't find that acceptable.

@Theunamedcat

This thread is eye opening how everyone should be kind and excuse male behaviour just because they might be grieving

Grief shouldn't cause violence and aggression its not a reason for acting like a dick

I think we should be kind to women who are grieving, this happens to be about the OPs dad but I'd feel exactly the same if it was her mother.

If someone you've known your whole life starts behaving in a very different way I'd be worried about them and what's going on. I've got an elderly relative who happens to be female. Before she got her dementia diagnosis she reduced me to tears on more than one occasion, fortunately I didn't immediately turn my back on her. I went with her to her GP, got a diagnosis, got carers in and eventually got her into a very nice home when she could no longer manage at home.

I don't think I've ever heard about a mother who has become drunk on a perfectly civilised family night out (supposedly after having their pride hurt when their offer to pay was declined) and aggressively lashed out at their spouse and adult child, including physically squaring up to and intimidating them. Let's not pretend this isn't male pattern behaviour.

I know 3 women off the top of my head who have done this & witnessed by me too. All kicked off at parties after too much to drink & all physically & verbally attacked men, all are mothers, 1 even did it at a family party in front of her kids, very out of character. She did turn out to have a thyroid problem which was understood by everyone as the cause

So it definitely DOES happen

Grief and illness may well be reasons but they are not excuses and what happened really wasn't OK, however out of character it sounds horrible and quite frightening. If he'd just been upset and crying, fine, forget it, but he was aggressive. I suggest having an open talk with your Mum and making sure that this isn't part of a pattern.

I would let him sleep and carry on with plans, as arguing with a hungover person is not much more constructive than arguing with a drunk. See what his reaction is when awake and functioning. I would be telling him exactly how bad and upsetting his behaviour was and how it made you feel. How he responds will tell you a lot.

It's interesting that the dad in this story waited until the in-laws were out of ear-shot before he started his tirade of shouting and squaring up.

I’d be worried about physical/ mental health as well OP. Was he ok before he went to the meal and started drinking? I think you probably need to have a frank conversation with your Mum

@RockinHorseShit nobody is saying it doesn't happen and that some women are not also violent. But you cannot sensibly deny that this is generally male pattern behaviour and that perpetrators are overwhelmingly men. Like I say, there are countless statistics and studies available which are vastly more informative and accurate that your personal anecdotes. This fact will obviously inform people's reactions. Recognising and responding to established behaviour patterns is an important skill that almost all humans possess. We shouldn't have to ignore our instincts in order to be kind to agressive men and avoid being accused of misandry.

Nobody is saying it's okay @CPL593H, it definitely isn't okay. Just that a one off, or recent change in behaviour rings alarm bells that there is more going on than just abusive behaviour

I'm not denying that at all @Outlyingtrout. Nowhere have I said that.

I just don't think this is one of those occasions & there's a reason for such a sudden change in behaviour that needs some empathy too

[quote Outlyingtrout]@RockinHorseShit nobody is saying it doesn't happen and that some women are not also violent. But you cannot sensibly deny that this is generally male pattern behaviour and that perpetrators are overwhelmingly men. Like I say, there are countless statistics and studies available which are vastly more informative and accurate that your personal anecdotes. This fact will obviously inform people's reactions. Recognising and responding to established behaviour patterns is an important skill that almost all humans possess. We shouldn't have to ignore our instincts in order to be kind to agressive men and avoid being accused of misandry.[/quote]
Well you said you'd never heard of a mother behaving like that. Now you have. I don't think anyone has denied that men are more likely to be violent but women can be violent.

They are actually so I suppose it could be that too. The general feeling at the table was let’s split it equally as they’ve travelled up to the meal and it was quite a hefty bill, but I can see why perhaps that may have offended. Everyone was very gracious about it and commented on how kind it was to offer etc.
This was your response to ? ILs being better off.
I suspect that not allowing him to pay was implying that he couldn't afford to do that, and mustn't be allowed to which, in his drunken state, he was mortally offended by. Perhaps you and DM apparently joining in in the 'he can't be allowed to pay' comments (although he misheard what you were actually saying) was the final humiliation.
There is no excusing his behaviour but drunks do ridiculous things.

Hello everyone. Thank you for your replies. I appreciate everyone’s thoughts and concern for my Mum. It was really just an awful end to the night. DH stayed upstairs and encouraged me to go downstairs to chat one on one with my Mum. We had a cuppa and discussed it, unless my judgment is really off, after our chat I really really don’t think this has happened before. She even said herself she “didn’t recognise him” and wants to keep an eye on him as she is worried it could be medical (purely due to how out of character it was). She is understandably still very upset.

He stayed in bed then emerged downstairs eventually just before we were going to leave for the walk. He looked absolutely mortified. Unfortunately he didn’t initiate the conversation which I was really disappointed by. I then initiated it saying we needed to discuss last night, at which point he asked us to relay what had actually happened at the end. I relayed the situation and he stated he didn’t remember a lot of it and he was really sorry. He was very apologetic and clearly very very embarrassed. We are about to head off for this walk, he has decided he wants to come and has gone upstairs to get ready. DH has suggested that SIL & kids go ahead and we follow, going to use the car journey to discuss further and ask him if he really is ok psychologically as last night was a real worry with DH there. I am glad that he behaved in this way this morning, but still feeling deflated/drained by it despite that. I will be keeping tabs though going forward with Mum x

@Yusanaim

They are actually so I suppose it could be that too. The general feeling at the table was let’s split it equally as they’ve travelled up to the meal and it was quite a hefty bill, but I can see why perhaps that may have offended. Everyone was very gracious about it and commented on how kind it was to offer etc. This was your response to ? ILs being better off. I suspect that not allowing him to pay was implying that he couldn't afford to do that, and mustn't be allowed to which, in his drunken state, he was mortally offended by. Perhaps you and DM apparently joining in in the 'he can't be allowed to pay' comments (although he misheard what you were actually saying) was the final humiliation. There is no excusing his behaviour but drunks do ridiculous things.

DM joining in saying he mustn't be allowed to pay makes me think she knows he either can't afford it or is so pissed he can't make a rational decision and she will be left taking the blame in the morning

Glad he apologised and is obviously mortified. It obviously has been a one-off, so while I think it is definitely worth keeping an eye on him going forward, and ensuring your Mum knows not to hide any future similar behaviours from you, he's apologised so I wouldn't do too much re-hashing. As long as he understands the hurt and distress he caused.

I think you're doing the right thing discussing it with him, op. It sounds like it's really out of character for him and with his mum dying and having had covid, he might be struggling. We have to be careful to recognise the signs when our loved ones are struggling and it sounds like you and your mum have done this. I hope he opens up and chats with you all.

good luck for the rest of the day, thank you for updating.

no point in hitting man when he is down, but i am sure you know this op. all the best

@RockinHorseShit

Do tell, what is the reason? Obviously you have great insight that I lack.

Clearly or you wouldn't have such glaring lack of empathy for a man who has acted very out of character, indicating that there's more going on than abusive behaviour 🙄

Again - you haven't explained which condition only results in abusive behaviour to women whilst being able to retain control with men.

What is this condition? Obviously you are an expert in it.

Good idea to keep checking in with your mum just in case, @Violet4. Let's hope this was a one-off, and he is sufficiently mortified by his behaviour that it never happens again.

Hope you have a nice day together - but I wouldn't be above letting him know how badly affected you were by his behaviour!