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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Argument at Christmas meal…

260 replies

Violet4 · 28/11/2021 05:45

NC for this one. DH’s parents are away this Christmas who live locally and my parents live 4 hours away. We generally have a tradition each year as everyone gets on very well where we will do a pre Xmas get together myself, DH, in laws, my parents, SIL/BIL (SIL has children we do not yet). Is generally always a nice evening out and has been going on for about 5-6 years now since married.

Anyway tonight we had this meal, went to a local french restaurant, all well - drinks flowing but not to an excessive extent that I was aware of. The bill came at the end, bill agreed to be split 4 ways. My father insisted on paying, only at this point I noticed he was quite drunk at the table. Really nice thought but we all insisted no, this went back and forth to the point where it got incredibly awkward. In the end bill agreed to be split 4 ways between couples but he became a bit grumpy, subject changed all fine. Then my mum who had forgotten her glasses, handed me her card and asked me to put it in the machine for her, I misheard what she said and replied “sorry, what did you say?” Across the table. At which point my father said “for f**cks sake Violet4 just sort it out stop making a fuss.” Myself and my mother looked across at him at the table confused, as it was so out of context and I explained to him the only issue was I hadn’t been able to hear my mother. Again all fine.

Meal ended, bit of a strange atmosphere at the end but nevermind, all said goodbye lovely meal etc. Restaurant is a short walk home so myself DH and parents began the walk.

As soon as my PIL and SIL were out of ear shot, my Dad absolutely lost it started asking “what the hell was your problem at the table I saw the way you two were looking at me” , we were absolutely bemused and explained he was making something out of nothing and just drunk, this caused him to get more and more angry resulted in him screaming in the street, swearing, called us a “pair of pr*cks” , shouting at us saying JUST WALK AWAY, but then kept trying to walk past us first. Clearly absolutely hammered drunk. Almost squaring up to us, nostrils flaring really really frightening. All got very emotional and very very nasty, DH walked ahead with myself and my Mother, he trailed behind stormed off somewhere then I heard him come in about 20 mins after us. They are staying at ours. I got home in tears, as did my mother. Now everyone asleep and I’ve been wide awake all night. Obviously they live 4 hours away so nowhere else for him to stay and really sad as we only see them once a month or so. It was honestly frightening, I’ve never seen him like that.

Now I know people say “this is out of character”, I am 34 years old and drunk or otherwise I have NEVER seen my father behave in that way, ever. Nor has my Mother and her reaction tonight you could tell she was utterly shell shocked afterwards. We have a very close relationship we speak daily on the phone and she tells me every little disagreement they’ve ever had etc. I really believe her that he’s never done this before.
I can’t piece together why this has happened tonight. He recently lost his mother (my grandmother) and he himself has been quite unwell with Covid. Maybe linked to that but I just don’t know why this behaviour manifested out of absolutely nothing.

Anyway if you have got this far, thank you. I don’t really know what I am posting for, I’ve been awake anxious about the morning for most of the night and not sure how to navigate this tommorrow. We have plans with SIL and her kids before they head off tomorrow and I don’t even think I can face being around him after last night, despite the fact he’s in the guest room as we speak…

Thank you x

OP posts:
Bentoforthehorde · 28/11/2021 09:13

The replies on this are so frustrating.

He didn't 'get a bit mean' he was aggressive, screaming in the street and squaring up to women. He shocked and frightened women.

Yeah he's probably grieving but fuck me, does that make this acceptable?

Don't pass this off as just him letting off steam from stress. Make sure you keep communication with your mum wide open in case it happens again.

ClaudiaJ1 · 28/11/2021 09:14

@Violet4 How did the chat with your mum go?

Opal8 · 28/11/2021 09:15

How's your mum?

tintodeverano2 · 28/11/2021 09:16

Unfortunately, grief and alcohol are a horrible mix.

NovemberNovemberDarkNights · 28/11/2021 09:17

@Violet4

I hope your Mum is ok.

Even though you Dad is 'older' losing his Mum is still a horrible thing to go through. My Dad died when I was in my 40's, but it was still life changing, all kinds of feelings I didn't expect as an adult. On top of having COVID and all the stresses the last couple of years have brought. Alcohol on top, and considerably more than he'd usually have! Plus his offer to pay being rejected (sensibly!) probably made him embarrassed that other people didn't think he could afford it (his view, not yours/inlaws).

I would have been worried if my Dad had acted like that too & would have been upset & furious & probably would have given him
What for this morning, but since my Dad died my urge is for you to give your Dad a BIG HUG & put this behind you. It's out of character, he's had a hell of a time & needs your love & understanding. As someone else said, men of his age have not been encouraged to show their (hurt/lost/scared) feelings, anger being much more 'acceptable'.

godmum56 · 28/11/2021 09:17

@Bentoforthehorde

The replies on this are so frustrating.

He didn't 'get a bit mean' he was aggressive, screaming in the street and squaring up to women. He shocked and frightened women.

Yeah he's probably grieving but fuck me, does that make this acceptable?

Don't pass this off as just him letting off steam from stress. Make sure you keep communication with your mum wide open in case it happens again.

acceptable maybe not but understandable totally
ClaudiaJ1 · 28/11/2021 09:18

@godmum56 squaring up to women is NEVER understandable.

bevelino · 28/11/2021 09:19

If it was a one off OP and family can get past this.

I think where someone in a group offers to pay, just let them; and say thank you. There is no need for protests from the table in public until it becomes awkward. If others genuinely want to pay they can transfer the funds the following day.

ClaudiaJ1 · 28/11/2021 09:21

[quote NovemberNovemberDarkNights]@Violet4

I hope your Mum is ok.

Even though you Dad is 'older' losing his Mum is still a horrible thing to go through. My Dad died when I was in my 40's, but it was still life changing, all kinds of feelings I didn't expect as an adult. On top of having COVID and all the stresses the last couple of years have brought. Alcohol on top, and considerably more than he'd usually have! Plus his offer to pay being rejected (sensibly!) probably made him embarrassed that other people didn't think he could afford it (his view, not yours/inlaws).

I would have been worried if my Dad had acted like that too & would have been upset & furious & probably would have given him
What for this morning, but since my Dad died my urge is for you to give your Dad a BIG HUG & put this behind you. It's out of character, he's had a hell of a time & needs your love & understanding. As someone else said, men of his age have not been encouraged to show their (hurt/lost/scared) feelings, anger being much more 'acceptable'.[/quote]
You can't be serious! NO WAY should the OP give him a hug and put it behind her. Your excuse of a man's violence towards women is disgusting, and there is NEVER, EVER and excuse for that! Enabling attitudes like yours are dangerous and @NovemberNovemberDarkNights .

Opal8 · 28/11/2021 09:22

Nope.

Why do we make excuses for men to behave like this?

We all go through bereavement and many of us have had covid.

Are we all getting hammered then screaming in the street and squaring up to our female children?

No.

Op. I'm sorry. But please don't shrug this off and honestly? Don't expect an apology. How is your mum? What did she say?

Outlyingtrout · 28/11/2021 09:24

As with almost all supposedly "out of control" male outbursts of aggression and rage, he managed to make the clear-headed choice to aim it directly at a woman. Someone he perceives to be weaker than him. In this case, two women who, being his daughter and wife, he could be pretty sure would have to let it go. He didn't square up to your DH or to your BIL or FIL. He also didn't do it your MIL or SIL, who he knows would have instantly been backed up by the other men and which would have caused him a lot of trouble longer term. He didn't call any of them "pricks" in the street. He didn't swear at any of them. He managed to keep a lid on his temper where they were all concerned, other than being a little "grumpy". He chose to direct all of his temper at his wife and daughter.

Going through a stressful period in life happens to absolutely everyone at some point. Everyone. We don't get to deal with that by verbally attacking and physically intimidating other people. This isn't just a case of him having a little snap at someone or being crotchety. I have an absolute zero tolerance policy when it comes to this kind of thing. I won't quietly tolerate being treated with aggression like this by anyone, under any circumstance. I had the misfortune to have my father treat me this way as a teenager, screaming in my face, swearing, nostrils flaring. Your OP was very familiar to me. My father also managed not to "lose it" with his friends or any adult males. Only ever his wife and kids. So yes my response is informed by my own experiences, but I think whether or not it's a one-off is by the by. It doesn't matter. He did this. He made you feel the way you're feeling. This will stay with you forever and whether he ever does it again or not, he has hurt you now.

In your shoes, I would read the riot act this morning. I would be very, very firmly telling him that his behaviour was aggressive, disgusting and unacceptable and if he ever spoke to me or treated me like that again he would never be crossing my threshold. Anything other than profuse apologies and obvious regret and sadness at his behaviour on his part, and he'd be out of the door that instant and I would be making no further contact with him. The ball would be in his court to come to me and prove some remorse.

Make sure you keep in close contact with your mum and continue to speak to her every day. This would worry me for her.

Livelovebehappy · 28/11/2021 09:24

I wonder if it’s in the back of his covid? My brother had covid six months ago, and has been behaving totally out of character on occasions recently. Always been a very fair person, whom I totally respected, but recently he flairs up at the most insignificant things. In fact, resulting in him swearing at me on one occasion for something that I hadn’t actually been guilty of, and we are currently not speaking. I still can’t get my head round his personality change.

Honeymint · 28/11/2021 09:24

Maybe he took offence at not being allowed to pay for everyone? I know my father gets the hump if he offers to pay for a meal (which he doesn’t often) and we turn him down.
It could be that he was having a lovely merry time and then felt embarrassed in front of your in-laws for his offer to pay being turned down?

It could have been a last straw on the camel’s back situation. If he’s been stressed, unwell and bereaved it’s possible that something small like that would have been the catalyst for an outburst?

I’m sure he’ll come around, just give him some time and maybe try asking him privately what was wrong without making him feel like he’s being confronted for his bad behaviour.

Opal8 · 28/11/2021 09:25

@Outlyingtrout

As with almost all supposedly "out of control" male outbursts of aggression and rage, he managed to make the clear-headed choice to aim it directly at a woman. Someone he perceives to be weaker than him. In this case, two women who, being his daughter and wife, he could be pretty sure would have to let it go. He didn't square up to your DH or to your BIL or FIL. He also didn't do it your MIL or SIL, who he knows would have instantly been backed up by the other men and which would have caused him a lot of trouble longer term. He didn't call any of them "pricks" in the street. He didn't swear at any of them. He managed to keep a lid on his temper where they were all concerned, other than being a little "grumpy". He chose to direct all of his temper at his wife and daughter.

Going through a stressful period in life happens to absolutely everyone at some point. Everyone. We don't get to deal with that by verbally attacking and physically intimidating other people. This isn't just a case of him having a little snap at someone or being crotchety. I have an absolute zero tolerance policy when it comes to this kind of thing. I won't quietly tolerate being treated with aggression like this by anyone, under any circumstance. I had the misfortune to have my father treat me this way as a teenager, screaming in my face, swearing, nostrils flaring. Your OP was very familiar to me. My father also managed not to "lose it" with his friends or any adult males. Only ever his wife and kids. So yes my response is informed by my own experiences, but I think whether or not it's a one-off is by the by. It doesn't matter. He did this. He made you feel the way you're feeling. This will stay with you forever and whether he ever does it again or not, he has hurt you now.

In your shoes, I would read the riot act this morning. I would be very, very firmly telling him that his behaviour was aggressive, disgusting and unacceptable and if he ever spoke to me or treated me like that again he would never be crossing my threshold. Anything other than profuse apologies and obvious regret and sadness at his behaviour on his part, and he'd be out of the door that instant and I would be making no further contact with him. The ball would be in his court to come to me and prove some remorse.

Make sure you keep in close contact with your mum and continue to speak to her every day. This would worry me for her.

Yep. Just this ^
Theunamedcat · 28/11/2021 09:26

This thread is eye opening how everyone should be kind and excuse male behaviour just because they might be grieving

Grief shouldn't cause violence and aggression its not a reason for acting like a dick

Opal8 · 28/11/2021 09:26

@Honeymint

Maybe he took offence at not being allowed to pay for everyone? I know my father gets the hump if he offers to pay for a meal (which he doesn’t often) and we turn him down. It could be that he was having a lovely merry time and then felt embarrassed in front of your in-laws for his offer to pay being turned down?

It could have been a last straw on the camel’s back situation. If he’s been stressed, unwell and bereaved it’s possible that something small like that would have been the catalyst for an outburst?

I’m sure he’ll come around, just give him some time and maybe try asking him privately what was wrong without making him feel like he’s being confronted for his bad behaviour.

Oh gosh yes!...we mustn't upset the abusive drunk!!!

Christ....

Livelovebehappy · 28/11/2021 09:26

*Just to add, I mean the virus affecting brain function, not just the stress of having covid.

Opal8 · 28/11/2021 09:26

@Theunamedcat

This thread is eye opening how everyone should be kind and excuse male behaviour just because they might be grieving

Grief shouldn't cause violence and aggression its not a reason for acting like a dick

Yes. I'm finding this thread really upsetting actually.
girlmom21 · 28/11/2021 09:28

but since my Dad died my urge is for you to give your Dad a BIG HUG & put this behind you.

So because your dad died she should just accept hers being aggressive and intimidating?

Lasair · 28/11/2021 09:32

If this is truly the first time you’ve ever seen him like this I’d wouldn’t give it another thought I’d just get over it and treat him normally today. Now if it becomes a regular occurrence that’s different and needs to be addressed. Not really sure why it’s kept you up all night? You seem a bit dramatic. Just move on. You’ve stressed this is the first time so give him the benefit of doubt.

ElsieMc · 28/11/2021 09:32

Op, I had this two years back with a close family member in his sixties. I had agreed to pick them up after a works do and they were fine in the car, a bit silly maybe but nothing prepared me for what happened.

First sign was being kept waiting half an hour in the cold and dark which I overlooked even though I had to wait in a dodgy area. As they were staying over, I went and checked and he was spark out on the bed. He then took a shower and I asked if he was coming down for something to eat and watch tv. The response was a screamed F-Off. I challenged this and all hell broke loose. It resulted in me being knocked to the floor. It was all absolutely awful and like you, over absolutely nothing at all.

He left early next morning and text me saying there was no excuse for the behaviour so he clearly could remember. He came to see me but I didn't want him near me. I told him that in future he got somewhere else to stay after a night out because I could no longer trust him. I have never allowed him to stay again.

I still think back to it. I do hope it gets resolved and I am very sorry for your mum. She must feel ashamed when she did nothing wrong and how can she trust him now.

I dont want to make you feel worse but even if you forgive your dad which you will, you cannot forget it. We all do things wrong but on this occasion your dad turned into a very, very nasty drunk. No excuses.

teateaandcoffee · 28/11/2021 09:39

Upvote for the posters saying you can’t excuse any behaviour due to grieving. I did this with my husband after a big loss, his behaviour wasn’t this bad at all but it went on for 2 years before it came to a head. I wish I had not excused anything and put my foot down after the first instance. Instead I made the same excuses that he was grieving.
Grieving should not let people off the hook for poor behaviour, this will only get worse if it goes unchallenged.

RockinHorseShit · 28/11/2021 09:41

I'm sorry you've experienced this & I really hope today goes well for you all.

Just incase your mum is saying this isn't an alcohol fuelled one off & she sees a change in him. Covid might be responsible as thanks to PAS they are now studying the affects of covid on vitamin stores such as B12. This article explains it & there's a few medical studies now too...

This would mean alcohol affects him more too & PA can come with bipolar like mood swings too, we see this in DD when she needs more B12 (we all have hereditary PA)

RockinHorseShit · 28/11/2021 09:42

@Livelovebehappy see the link in my last response, this could be your DB too

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