Constructive help understanding this please

[Franklyfrost]

I’d really like some advice, perspective and practical suggestions. It’s me, my dp, my 4 dc, 11, 9, 5 and 3. Dc 11 and dc 9 are exdh’s, dc 5 and 3 are dp’s.

Back story:
Dc 11 is lovely and can be very endearing and interesting. He is also pubescent, plus has SEN, so there’s no denying he often is hard work to be around. Dp and Ds 11 don’t have a good relationship- a vicious circle of them being rude to each other, I wish my dp would stop and treat ds 11 more like a child who needs love rather than an irritation. If dp made the effort to not engage in conflict and tried to develop a connection I’m sure ds 11’s behaviour toward him would improve. Dp knows this but just wants to be obeyed by ds 11.

Every 4 months or so my partner has grabbed or shoved ds. I’ve told him it’s unacceptable. He says he won’t do it again. As ds 11 is getting older- he’s very tall for an 11 year old, wears age 14 clothes- it’s become more shocking and the last time dp grabbed him, which was this summer, I really explained at length how it was not okay for my dp to grab or shove or drag ds 11 or dc 9 (he’s done it a few times but less with dc 9).

Yesterday morning dp grabbed ds 11, lifted him and in doing so banged his head against a piece of furniture. Ds 11 had accidentally hurt ds 5 while playing with him- enough to make ds 5 cry for a few seconds but nothing serious. Ds 11 freaked out- he wasn’t badly hurt at all but had hit his head and teeth. I came into the room because of all the shouting- asked what had happened, checked with the dc and then went to tell dp that he couldn’t behave like that. Dp then started screaming at me, yelled at the top of his voice and then left the room. He came back from work that evening and refused to talk to me.

When I came to bed I said we had to discuss what had happened. He repeated much the same stuff he yelled in the morning: that ds 11 had kicked dc 5, which he had but dp didn’t mention the fact that he only kicked him lightly by accident while playing. Dp said lots about how I should support him and be in his side, that it was my fault for not telling him how what to do with dc 11 (I have explained many techniques, provided literature and we even did 12 weeks of cbt as part of the NHS well-being treatment for ds 11). He listed all my parenting fails and I pointed out none of them involved violence and they were all followed with an apology and an explanation. When I said he couldn’t touch my children dp replied well we live together so that’s not very practical- when it was obvious I meant not touch my children in anger or with violence. I told him I wanted an apology, that he needed to say sorry to ds 11 and I went to sleep on the sofa. Dp did apologise to ds 11, although it was ‘I’m sorry you got hurt’ rather than ‘I’m sorry I hurt you’. I didn’t hear any of the rest of the apology but I expect it was along the lines of ‘you hurt dc 5 and didn’t move when I asked so I had to move you’.

He messaged me during the day today and said ‘I’m sorry’ to which I replied ‘why are you sorry? I would like to know that you understand why your behaviour was so upsetting. You overstepped a clear boundary which you had previously agreed to. The subsequent aggression and minimising doesn’t assure me that you understand that boundary and won’t do the same thing again. I love you and want us to be okay. You made a mistake and you can make it better. Try this:
I apologise for ……..
I did it because …….
I wish I hadn’t done it because …..
In future I will…..
X
I’m not trying to be bossy but to explain clearly what would help me feel better.’
He didn’t reply or even open the message, came home from work and gave me the silent treatment again. What is going on? He lost his temper and acted badly why won’t he apologise? Am I being unreasonable? I’ve been working really hard to make our relationship better but I can’t let this slide. Advice please. I won’t be ltb for a few years as I am doing a vocational degree which will allow me to support myself and the children independently down the line. For me having dp as a stepfather for a few years is better than living in poverty for your whole childhood. Dp acts like he can’t see what he did or why it’s wrong. He doesn’t even seem to know he lost his temper. What do I do? Am in being a bitch or over reacting? How do I protect my kids and get dp see that he cannot shove or grab my kids. I don’t understand how he thinks it could be okay. Is it okay? He’s not perfect but I don’t think he’s an idiot or a monster despite evidence to the contrary. And, I love him.

A lot of this post has been about dp because my question is about dp’s behaviour but my son’s well being is the priority here. Any help in understanding or navigating this situation much appreciated. And sorry this is so long…

I sent this message once dp had left for work:
‘ You don’t seem to understand how serious this is. Either you engage with the problem and make changes or you leave. I’m not going to let you hurt ds anymore, it’s gone too far.’

I don’t believe that this is a terrible act of abuse that is going to end up with dp killing ds as pp have stated. I do believe that dp and ds11 have an unhealthy relationship and it’s my responsibility to make sure my dc are safe and as happy as can be. I’ve found it helpful to hear that this situation is wrong as it makes me more convinced that I need to stand my ground and do something about it. I won’t let the situation continue.

I’m not able to shun everyone who makes a mistake or behaves badly. It’s not in me. I think we all make mistakes and we all act badly sometimes. It’s said that abusers never change, is that true? Why would it be true? Don’t all people change? Also, I don’t think my dp is an abuser, I think he’s acting badly and in denial about his behaviour.

This thread has made me feel like a monster. It’s not as simple as pack your bags and leave. I don’t have it in me right now. But if dp doesn’t engage and prove that he can learn and show he understands how serious this is then I’ll get him to leave.

Someone said dp get entitled to hurt ds and there is something in that. He does believe he can and should do what he wants. But he’s also thoughtful and intelligent. He just doesn’t seem able to reflect on his behaviour or even acknowledge he has emotions, responsibilities etc

What a mess. Thank you everyone who helped explain things to me. I just can’t seem to work out why people behave the way they do, what behaviour is acceptable etc.

He does believe he can and should do what he wants. But he’s also thoughtful and intelligent. He just doesn’t seem able to reflect on his behaviour or even acknowledge he has emotions, responsibilities etc

Is he a narcissist?

@User5252727

I suspect your own childhood is warping things here OP.

You're thinking 'it's not that bad - I experienced worse and I turned out fine'. But the truth is you did not turn out fine, because you're minimising your husband's abuse of your son. If you hadn't grown up in an abusive household yourself, you would recognise this for what it is. But your perception and boundaries are off because of what your parents did to you.

So think about what this is going to do to your son. He's either going to grow up and be abusive, or he's going to be susceptible to abuse like you, because that's the example set to him by his childhood.

Brilliant post.

It’s not as simple as pack your bags and leave.

It absolutely is that simple. It's not easy, but it is simple. I'm not the only poster on this thread or on this site who's had to do exactly that to keep myself and my DC safe.

But thanks for the update, OP. I hope some of what has been said here has sunk in.

And without sounding awful, I really do hope your DS reaches out to someone at school or in the wider family and you get a visit from SS. As soon as they see how you downplay it, alarm bells will start ringing and action will be taken. Best to sort it yourself before it gets to that point.

I’m not able to shun everyone who makes a mistake or behaves badly. It’s not in me. I think we all make mistakes and we all act badly sometimes.

The exception to you being like this should be when it comes to someone who bullies and assaults your son. Once, let alone multiple times. It doesn't make you a 'nice' person to be forgiving of someone abusing your son. It makes you complicit in abuse.

You didn't answer earlier as you've obviously had loads of messages to read over so I understand, but can you imagine living in a house with someone you know actively dislikes you, who has physically assaulted you, who is never genuinely sorry, who doesn't think it's wrong, who gets away with it every time, who is bigger and stronger than you AND who you have no choice to leave. You have to stay living with him because the only person who can change that won't help you leave. Imagine the constant state of anxiety that would leave you in. How stressed and frightened you'd be often. That's how your son lives. You wouldn't live that way, why are you making him?

Stop giving chances to a pathetic grown man who uses his size, strength and partner's misplaced loyalty to physically assault a child. YOUR child.

@Franklyfrost

I sent this message once dp had left for work: ‘ You don’t seem to understand how serious this is. Either you engage with the problem and make changes or you leave. I’m not going to let you hurt ds anymore, it’s gone too far.’

I don’t believe that this is a terrible act of abuse that is going to end up with dp killing ds as pp have stated. I do believe that dp and ds11 have an unhealthy relationship and it’s my responsibility to make sure my dc are safe and as happy as can be. I’ve found it helpful to hear that this situation is wrong as it makes me more convinced that I need to stand my ground and do something about it. I won’t let the situation continue.

I’m not able to shun everyone who makes a mistake or behaves badly. It’s not in me. I think we all make mistakes and we all act badly sometimes. It’s said that abusers never change, is that true? Why would it be true? Don’t all people change? Also, I don’t think my dp is an abuser, I think he’s acting badly and in denial about his behaviour.

This thread has made me feel like a monster. It’s not as simple as pack your bags and leave. I don’t have it in me right now. But if dp doesn’t engage and prove that he can learn and show he understands how serious this is then I’ll get him to leave.

Someone said dp get entitled to hurt ds and there is something in that. He does believe he can and should do what he wants. But he’s also thoughtful and intelligent. He just doesn’t seem able to reflect on his behaviour or even acknowledge he has emotions, responsibilities etc

What a mess. Thank you everyone who helped explain things to me. I just can’t seem to work out why people behave the way they do, what behaviour is acceptable etc.

Well the text you sent him has redeemed you somewhat but you really haven't got a clue have you? You may not deem this as abuse because it doesn't fit some pre conceived criteria you have dreamed up, but the long term damage this will have on your son's emotional development later in life which normally manifests itself in violence against other people, alcoholism or drugs might help clarify things for you. But of course it will be too late then and besides he wasn't really abused was he? Dear God give me strength. Your son's wellbeing isn't worth the instability of splitting up? Do you have any idea how disgraceful and selfish that sounds?

@onelittlefrog

No one is getting their kids taken away or charged for picking a kid up after he kicked his brother and accidentally bumping his head.

OP while I do think you need to sort out your situation because it’s far from ideal, I do want to say I think some of the posts on here characterising picking up/shoving your son as a hideous act of abuse and saying you children would be better in care are positively hysterical.

@Franklyfrost

@ category12 wrote:
If he was shoving you, grabbing you and banging your head on the furniture, would you leave?

*That is a really good point, I did say to dp- what if someone did that to him?

But he’s also thoughtful and intelligent. He just doesn’t seem able to reflect on his behaviour or even acknowledge he has emotions, responsibilities etc

No emotional intelligence then?

Social worker here. What you're describing is abuse. Inappropriate physical chastisement and most likely emotional abuse. Act now and put your son first instead of your relationship.

A time out or a console or phone taken away is discipline followed by a sit down and talk through and a hug.

What your DP is doing IS abuse. I know you don't want to see it as that but it is. As your DS 11 gets older the conflict and violence will only escalate. Your son needs to know he has a safe space and that you have his back. Your DP is an adult and should know better. I'm frankly disgusted that you don't see I as abuse.

Ds emotional age is low. His behaviour is challenging and we get support for that on the NHS. This doesn’t mean adults should physically move him around but it does mean that it’s far more challenging to parent and more mistakes might happen. It also means I need to protect him more. For me to move would set ds back so far, he’d completely loose the ability to self regulate and we have been making slow and steady progress with his behaviour. Changes are not easy for him. Even if dp moved out it would mean months of no sleep, constant wailing, breaking and throwing objects etc which puts all his the other children at risk. Most of the time dp is a support to all of us.

@Franklyfrost

Ds emotional age is low. His behaviour is challenging and we get support for that on the NHS. This doesn’t mean adults should physically move him around but it does mean that it’s far more challenging to parent and more mistakes might happen. It also means I need to protect him more. For me to move would set ds back so far, he’d completely loose the ability to self regulate and we have been making slow and steady progress with his behaviour. Changes are not easy for him. Even if dp moved out it would mean months of no sleep, constant wailing, breaking and throwing objects etc which puts all his the other children at risk. Most of the time dp is a support to all of us.

More excuses Jesus Christ.

@BeggarsMeddle

No emotional intelligence then?

Maybe it’s that. He does get hurt or feel slighted or controlled easily. So emotions are there. Just not an understanding of them. I’ll have a Google,

Nothing is worth staying with this man. Nothing.

You have to face it.

@Franklyfrost

Ds emotional age is low. His behaviour is challenging and we get support for that on the NHS. This doesn’t mean adults should physically move him around but it does mean that it’s far more challenging to parent and more mistakes might happen. It also means I need to protect him more. For me to move would set ds back so far, he’d completely loose the ability to self regulate and we have been making slow and steady progress with his behaviour. Changes are not easy for him. Even if dp moved out it would mean months of no sleep, constant wailing, breaking and throwing objects etc which puts all his the other children at risk. Most of the time dp is a support to all of us.

Mistakes? There you go minimising again like it's just one of those things. I really think you should stop now. Every post reads even worse than the last. In fact your indifference to what is really happening here is chilling. Just remember that right now you are teaching your children how to allow themselves to be treated by others when they grow up. I hope you can look back knowing you taught them well about balanced relationships.

@TarasCrazyTiara

OP while I do think you need to sort out your situation because it’s far from ideal, I do want to say I think some of the posts on here characterising picking up/shoving your son as a hideous act of abuse and saying you children would be better in care are positively hysterical.

Thank you. It’s hurtful and not very helpful to go down the lines of, ‘I work in social care and also the police and you’re all going to be murdered by dp unless we come and take your children into care, you disgusting mother’, it’s not true, not helpful and reminds me of The Crucible. On the plus side it’s heartening that so many people have had so little experience of the sort of abuse that does get you arrested.

Abuse thrives on secrecy and I would think you kept your parents abusive treatment of you a secret. No-one knew. It has indeed warped your perspective now as an adult but what is happening to your children now is really no different from what happened to you in childhood. Your parents failed you utterly by abusing you as they did and you state your mother has never been left alone with your DC. History has a nasty habit of repeating itself and in turn now, you are failing your children by failing to protect them from their abuser.

One poster happy to minimise the same way you do OP and now everyone else's opinion is hysterical?

I don't think you're going to be murdered by your DP, I just think you're doing a miserable job of protecting your kids from a bully, and you should be held accountable for that. And I really hope your DS tells someone about his home life. Then you'll finally realise the full implications of your unwillingness to leave because it's too much of a hassle - which is basically what it boils down to.

They will not care or want to know that you stayed because of your desire to finish your vocational degree. They will instead accuse you quite rightly of putting him before them. You likely have no relationship with your parents at all these day. One day your children will leave home and sooner rather than later particularly if you do not act to remove them from their abuser now. None of them will want to see either of you going forward.

@ youvegottenminuteslynn

You didn't answer earlier as you've obviously had loads of messages to read over so I understand, but can you imagine living in a house with someone you know actively dislikes you, who has physically assaulted you, who is never genuinely sorry, who doesn't think it's wrong, who gets away with it every time, who is bigger and stronger than you AND who you have no choice to leave. You have to stay living with him because the only person who can change that won't help you leave. Imagine the constant state of anxiety that would leave you in. How stressed and frightened you'd be often. That's how your son lives. You wouldn't live that way, why are you making him?

Sorry I didn’t reply because I replied to a similar comment previously. I think this is a compelling argument. Both regarding what is being taught by example but also, how an adult would feel if they were treated this way. It’s that lack of empathy which I’d like to discuss with my partner. (Although I appreciate that the call is for me to ltb, no discussion). I did ask him how he would feel if someone physically moved him but I think in his head he has the right to do that. Why he thinks that he has the right to behave like that is what I don’t understand. I feel like if I only could get though to him he could understand, it’s so simple: look after children, don’t cause them distress. (I know that it’s me who’s allowing ds to be exposed to the distress but I stand by the fact that us leaving would be far far more upsetting for all the children)

Oh dear lord , you're justifying the met polices definition of abuse to say your partner isn't abusing your son when he clearly is !
Haven't read through the whole thread , however
Sorry but as a mother you are complicit and shame on you for choosing financial security over protecting your son

You don't seem to get what I'm asking OP.

I did ask him how he would feel if someone physically moved him but I think in his head he has the right to do that.

How would YOU feel if someone physically shoved / dragged / pushed you and you banged your head and teeth. How would YOU feel if your partner did that to you? I don't really care how he would feel. So how would you feel if he did to you what he does to your son?

It’s that lack of empathy which I’d like to discuss with my partner.

You say he's lacking empathy and therefore not changing. But you're lacking empathy for your son too, hugely, because you've allowed this to continue.

"I know that it’s me who’s allowing ds to be exposed to the distress but I stand by the fact that us leaving would be far far more upsetting for all the children"

You're still minimising here for your own reasons; probably because its easier for you not to face the truth.

Would leaving him really be more upsetting for them or more to the point, more upsetting for you because its yet another of your relationships that is at an end?.

I would actually think your children would rather have a safe and calm environment because their house is not the sanctuary it should be. You're not fully emotionally available to any of your children and this will continue as long as you and he remain together for what are really your own reasons. They do not come into it at all.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

I wouldn’t enjoy someone doing it to me. It would be frightening and unpleasant. Maybe I do lack in empathy. But I also know that making rash decisions is not what would be best for the children. I’d rather fix the broken relationship between dp and ds than destroy everyone’s lives. I’ve known poverty, what it means not to be able to eat or stay warm, and I’m not doing that to my children.