Constructive help understanding this please

[Franklyfrost]

I’d really like some advice, perspective and practical suggestions. It’s me, my dp, my 4 dc, 11, 9, 5 and 3. Dc 11 and dc 9 are exdh’s, dc 5 and 3 are dp’s.

Back story:
Dc 11 is lovely and can be very endearing and interesting. He is also pubescent, plus has SEN, so there’s no denying he often is hard work to be around. Dp and Ds 11 don’t have a good relationship- a vicious circle of them being rude to each other, I wish my dp would stop and treat ds 11 more like a child who needs love rather than an irritation. If dp made the effort to not engage in conflict and tried to develop a connection I’m sure ds 11’s behaviour toward him would improve. Dp knows this but just wants to be obeyed by ds 11.

Every 4 months or so my partner has grabbed or shoved ds. I’ve told him it’s unacceptable. He says he won’t do it again. As ds 11 is getting older- he’s very tall for an 11 year old, wears age 14 clothes- it’s become more shocking and the last time dp grabbed him, which was this summer, I really explained at length how it was not okay for my dp to grab or shove or drag ds 11 or dc 9 (he’s done it a few times but less with dc 9).

Yesterday morning dp grabbed ds 11, lifted him and in doing so banged his head against a piece of furniture. Ds 11 had accidentally hurt ds 5 while playing with him- enough to make ds 5 cry for a few seconds but nothing serious. Ds 11 freaked out- he wasn’t badly hurt at all but had hit his head and teeth. I came into the room because of all the shouting- asked what had happened, checked with the dc and then went to tell dp that he couldn’t behave like that. Dp then started screaming at me, yelled at the top of his voice and then left the room. He came back from work that evening and refused to talk to me.

When I came to bed I said we had to discuss what had happened. He repeated much the same stuff he yelled in the morning: that ds 11 had kicked dc 5, which he had but dp didn’t mention the fact that he only kicked him lightly by accident while playing. Dp said lots about how I should support him and be in his side, that it was my fault for not telling him how what to do with dc 11 (I have explained many techniques, provided literature and we even did 12 weeks of cbt as part of the NHS well-being treatment for ds 11). He listed all my parenting fails and I pointed out none of them involved violence and they were all followed with an apology and an explanation. When I said he couldn’t touch my children dp replied well we live together so that’s not very practical- when it was obvious I meant not touch my children in anger or with violence. I told him I wanted an apology, that he needed to say sorry to ds 11 and I went to sleep on the sofa. Dp did apologise to ds 11, although it was ‘I’m sorry you got hurt’ rather than ‘I’m sorry I hurt you’. I didn’t hear any of the rest of the apology but I expect it was along the lines of ‘you hurt dc 5 and didn’t move when I asked so I had to move you’.

He messaged me during the day today and said ‘I’m sorry’ to which I replied ‘why are you sorry? I would like to know that you understand why your behaviour was so upsetting. You overstepped a clear boundary which you had previously agreed to. The subsequent aggression and minimising doesn’t assure me that you understand that boundary and won’t do the same thing again. I love you and want us to be okay. You made a mistake and you can make it better. Try this:
I apologise for ……..
I did it because …….
I wish I hadn’t done it because …..
In future I will…..
X
I’m not trying to be bossy but to explain clearly what would help me feel better.’
He didn’t reply or even open the message, came home from work and gave me the silent treatment again. What is going on? He lost his temper and acted badly why won’t he apologise? Am I being unreasonable? I’ve been working really hard to make our relationship better but I can’t let this slide. Advice please. I won’t be ltb for a few years as I am doing a vocational degree which will allow me to support myself and the children independently down the line. For me having dp as a stepfather for a few years is better than living in poverty for your whole childhood. Dp acts like he can’t see what he did or why it’s wrong. He doesn’t even seem to know he lost his temper. What do I do? Am in being a bitch or over reacting? How do I protect my kids and get dp see that he cannot shove or grab my kids. I don’t understand how he thinks it could be okay. Is it okay? He’s not perfect but I don’t think he’s an idiot or a monster despite evidence to the contrary. And, I love him.

A lot of this post has been about dp because my question is about dp’s behaviour but my son’s well being is the priority here. Any help in understanding or navigating this situation much appreciated. And sorry this is so long…

I don’t think he’s an idiot or a monster despite evidence to the contrary.

What is he then? What are the right words for a grown man who can't control his temper or his physicality around children under 11?

Do you think that things will get calmer and safer for your DS as he enters puberty?

What do you think your children are learning about handling their anger?

How are you a loving and protective parent when you leave your children unattended with a man who has a history of 'accidentally hurting them?

'

I suspect your own childhood is warping things here OP.

You're thinking 'it's not that bad - I experienced worse and I turned out fine'. But the truth is you did not turn out fine, because you're minimising your husband's abuse of your son. If you hadn't grown up in an abusive household yourself, you would recognise this for what it is. But your perception and boundaries are off because of what your parents did to you.

So think about what this is going to do to your son. He's either going to grow up and be abusive, or he's going to be susceptible to abuse like you, because that's the example set to him by his childhood.

Op
I've not read the whole thread..

• You are trying to coach your partner into apologising in a way that makes it ok for you to stay.

• He is behaving this way because he doesn't WANT to change

@Franklyfrost

But also, why can’t my dp see it’s wrong? That’s what I don’t understand. If he said sorry and we worked out a way not to let it happen again then it would be alright.

Because hes abusive to both you and your son. Grabbing a child is not acceptable. Plus your being emotionally abused by DP refusing to speak to you. You cannot change a person he is who he is abusive.

'Using physical force to discipline'
You've posted the definition of abuse , do you want to wait until he puts him in hospital?
Do you want your child to be scared in his own house.

This is unacceptable. It is abuse.

My step father was quite nasty to my mother, my brothers and I saw incidents of DV and verbal abuse. Do you know what my mother did- she kicked him out and raised 5 children on her own. To put this in context- she had me when when she 16, didn’t finish her secondary education, had no inheritance, worked any job she could and eventually forged a career in the civil service. All of her children have gone on to be successful& we, her children, are full of love and admiration for our mother and the sacrifices she made by putting us first. We had a great childhood, we never felt like we had any less than the family next door and our fondest memories are those when we were just together, playing board games or doing silly things, because we were safe, loved and totally relaxed in our home.

Jesus fucking wept.

Protect your children and kick your violent, abusive “partner” out.

I can’t believe you’re allowing your children to be treated this way.

Tragic.

He's never going to stop doing this. I'm sure he has many good points. No one behaves badly all the time. But this isn't a once off. It's a repeated behaviour, and one he doesn't appreciate is wrong. He's always going to be a man who is violent towards your children.

Can anyone use words that aren’t insults to explain why my partner is behaving this way?
Because he thinks it acceptable and disagrees with your boundaries and has no respect for them. He CHOOSES to do something he knows you find unacceptable. It's his CHOICE. You now have a CHOICE, you let him carry on (regardless of what you say, he's shown you he will continue) or you remove yourself and your children from this environment

I also agree he's abusing your ds. A way of looking at it. Imagine you're in a coffee shop, you accidentally stand on someone's foot (it happens), it's a tall, big bloke, he picks you up, shoves you against a wall and you hit your head and teeth. Is this ok? Is it ok because you stood on his foot? Is it ok because there's no lasting injuries?

I'd also recommend you speak to your local police station or social services, do you think they will tell you to stop wasting their time when you tell them what's happened? Or do you think they would want to speak to him? Just because it's not a black eye or bloody lip doesn't mean it's not physical abuse

You are wasting time and effort trying to understand in order to fix your partner’s behaviour. He’s not going to change, he’s told you that loud and clear. There is no more fixing to be done, he is what he is. Stop trying to fix him.
Poverty is relative, especially when it’s temporary. Do your degree part time, work for sixteen hours and get all the child/work/tax credits you are entitled to. It’s doable, obviously hard, but doable.

You know it's almost tragic how you talk such lengthy psychobabble as if you are so blessed with deep insight nobody else has access to, yet can't see what's right under your own nose. Some people might call it being in denial. You are failing your child abysmally here. I know that's a tough one to comprehend as a mother. I also hope your son tells a third party what is going on because you are clearly too blinkered to see it, even though you seem to think you are so insightful. One day your son might ask you why you didn't do something about it and you'll need more than psychobabble to answer him.

You can't change your p 🤷🏼‍♀️ and we can't do it for you.

Your options are to LTB or stay and put up with your dc being abused by your p every four months or so. And it IS abuse.

Is that acceptable to you? Because it shouldn't be.

And the way your p acts to your son? He will act just the same with his own, when the time comes.

Your p is a massive bully. He thinks it's ok to use his superior weight and strength on kids. Nice 🙄

It sounds like your parents were violent to you when you were a child and this has coloured your expectations now - violence is normalised to you. Your mum sounds bloody awful. Maybe some counselling would help you?

You're a bad mother and he's a bully. HTH.

And for what it's worth, while not one of four I was one of three and my mum did get rid of my mentally abusive father. And it was hard but it was the right thing and even at nearly 40 I am still thankful everyday that she did and she put us first. If my DH turned out in any way abusive I would walk away and I have always been prepared to do so.

[quote Franklyfrost]@JurgensCakeBaby

I’m in the uk so if you’re inclined to, you’re free to hit your kids so long as it doesn’t leave a mark/ lasting physical damage. Not something I’d advocate obviously.[/quote]
Wtf. So it's okay as long as he doesn't mark him?! Your partner is bullying and abusing your son and you're doing nothing about it. I really hope your poor son speaks to a teacher about it at school and gets the ball rolling for social services to be involved, you're a joke of a mother for enabling such behaviours

I understand it's difficult for you to get why your DP will not stop, and apologize. It is for the very simple reason he doesn't think he has done anything wrong and doesn't owe you or anyone an apology. He feels entitled to behave this way, and it makes him angry when you tell him he shouldn't do what he wants to - hence his screaming at you. He sees nothing wrong with using physical force to discipline a child and he will continue to do this.

Picking up a toddler is not comparable with what you described in your OP and I think you know this. Boys need to be taught not to hit / be physical. Your son is learning that using force is an acceptable response to conflict. He is learning his Mum allows it and will not protect him from it. Your son will soon be at risk of retaliating and then you will have a much worse situation on your hands, aside from the appalling example that is being set to your near teen son. If you do not protect your son, he will protect himself. He will emulate the behaviors he is learning at home in his life outside the home. Ask yourself if this is a risk you are willing to take & the life you want for your son?

I'm sorry to say you are in denial. I understand, I can hear the echo's of my own words in your posts. I used to minimize my exdp's violence towards myself and child. That is until, one day he nearly killed me. I will never forgive myself for making excuses for him so many times.

Abuse exists on a spectrum, and make no mistake what you are describing is abuse. Abuse escalates, with each act an abuser gets away with they become more entitled and more dangerous. Violence breeds violence.

OP, your children are being abused. Your eldest is 11 and about to start a very difficult age. I know of so many kids who have self harmed or worse from that age onwards because of all the pressures they have at school, with their peers, hormones. If on top of that they are in an abusive home where their step father is physically and emotionally abusing them and their mother is letting it happen without protecting them, how much worse is that??

It means your children do not have anywhere safe.

@Franklyfrost

Part of me still thinks no one got hurt! It’s not worth the instability of losing a partner, of the kids not having two adults to look after them, just because someone was moved from a to b. I don’t know how to explain it, obviously I’m the monster. Dp does look after us lots. The kids would all be devastated if he left. Clearly from the responses above, which I will reread in the morning, I’m wrong. Thank you For taking the time to talk this through with me.

It's not worth the instability of losing a partner ? 🙄 This gives me the shivers . Sadly sometimes things just don't work out when you have children and non biological "fathers" and "mothers". Too many horrible stories in the press right now about children being abused by adults in their lives.

Another former criminal justice professional here: assuming the op is in England/Wales (apologies if I've missed her whereabouts) this is abuse and you are complicit. I would authorise charges against both of you. Is Mumsnet able to identify posters' addresses so the police and social services can be notified before someone (11 year old?) ends up dead?

I fear the OP has taken flight...

@Franklyfrost - I guess you are frantically hoping that there is a way you can explain to your partner how and why he must not abuse your son........ and that he will somehow 'understand' and stop doing what he is doing.

You, however, must understand, and I mean fully comprehend, that the chances of this are practically nil. Zilch. Not going to happen.

So you have a choice to make.

I’m gutted for your DS. Where is his DF? Can he go and live with him while you insist on staying with this sad excuse of a DP until you finish your studies? Because it’s probably the only way to keep him safe. The longer you tolerate this the worse it will get and your younger DS will also be pulled into line by your DP as he gets bigger. Your DP will not want to growing young men to stand up to him do he will be making sure from now they understand their place, by intimidation.

If you don’t LTB you are seriously failing your kids.

You chose to get into a relationship with this man

You have a choice whether to stay

Your child has no choice. He's stuck in a home with a man who abuses him. How would you feel if that was you?

Do your job, be a parent and protect your child by ending this relationship