Where do they hide the normal men?

[Ihaveroyallyscrewedup]

Is there some island they all live on, some secret place only a few know of?
The most recent seemed like a safe bet, known each other for many years, well enough to know a fair amount of detail about each other’s lives. In that time he’s always seemed stable, good job, own house, two children he has three days a week, wise enough to have asked my advice before he has taken action because he has recognised he may be unreasonable and being a dick. For reasons which are irrelevant we have never dated but there has always been chemistry so we found ourselves in a place where we think ok let’s date and suddenly he’s turned in to this unreliable, non communicative man who treats a suggestion of lunch as if you had just proposed marriage, buying a house and having triplets all at the same time!
So time to throw this one back which is a shame as we have been friends a long time.

Another interesting study is the one that showed men tend to agree on who is attractive whereas women tend to have much more diverse taste
This would explain perfectly why women would disagree over a sample of just four men

‘
"Men agree a lot more about who they find attractive and unattractive than women agree about who they find attractive and unattractive," said study researcher Dustin Wood, assistant professor of psychology at Wake Forest University in North Carolina.’

The research on online Apps looked at how successful people were on dating apps, how many clicks and likes they got and how many found satisfying relationships.

As there are many people on Apps there is a lot of data, and it’s fairly easy to find objective data on how ‘popular’ people are and what about their profile made them popular or unpopular.

And very depressingly women were significantly less popular and significantly less likely to find a quality relationship if they were older and have a University Degree. They were the main negative characteristics, above things like height, body weight, colour hair etc.

So even though individuals may be nice (hopefully!) and may find a woman who is intelligent attractive, on the whole this will set them back on online dating apps.

Which is one reason I think why educated older women do objectively have a harder time than most trying to find a normal OK man. These are not attractive qualities, some of us have found that this is indeed the case. I’ve been told by lovely sounding men that I was ‘too much of a woman for him’ (ie too capable and too experienced), I have been told that I’m a ‘bit intimidating’ (not because of me, I’m not a dominant personality, when questioned more it is because I am intelligent, a scientist, used to looking after myself).

It was quite an interesting experience on online dating. I did meet some nice guys, but unfortunately my compatible people were put off apparently by this and told me so. One said that he had spent years married to someone capable and now had the attention of younger women, who now looked up to him in a way his Ex wife didn’t (I guess she was more his equal). He felt he could ‘rescue’ and look after the younger women he dated.

There's a huge difference between OLD and IRL. Statistics generated by OLD shouldn't be taken too seriously. Apps are just a marketing campaign.

I did a lot of dating online, but the best relationships came from IRL.

@BasicDad

There's a huge difference between OLD and IRL. Statistics generated by OLD shouldn't be taken too seriously. Apps are just a marketing campaign.

I did a lot of dating online, but the best relationships came from IRL.

All the things listed about men amd porn addiction , webcam use , not paying for children , harrassi g women, sexual assaults and dv ALL happen in real life ! Men can try and spin it how they like but these issues with so many men not being good quality are not just online issues

Also from what I read it wasn’t an app saying that it was research about apps , . Is that right
@NCBlossom

I didn't make comment on any of the issues you raised, only the stats in regards to attractiveness, which OLD skews massively.

I would agree that a lot of men are pigs, and that's probably unkind to pigs. A lot aren't though, and they're definitely out there.

I think one of the issues is that what we regard as normal, or perhaps reasonable is a better term, change with personal experience and time.

As I have got older (and perimenopausal) my tolerance for BS, drama, posturing, and ego have declined, whereas these traits may have attracted me in my youth. Sad thing is these traits can increase in some men during and post their MLC.

I am sure everyone has an ideal partner somewhere, they just might be on another continent!

@BasicDad

I didn't make comment on any of the issues you raised, only the stats in regards to attractiveness, which OLD skews massively.

I would agree that a lot of men are pigs, and that's probably unkind to pigs. A lot aren't though, and they're definitely out there.

But where?! Is it the hill walking club? Thinking of joining [smile}

I wonder, it’s interesting. OLD apparently also has more women who want to seriously settle down according to another study. I wonder if it’s true for men also?

OLD isn’t real life you are right. But increasingly a way most people meet their partners. The research was trying to find the original studies - were not commissioned by the OLD websites, they were independent.

Smile fail

I think gyms, running, walking, exercise clubs are a good start. Any hobbies your interested in too is going to potentially reveal some like minded single people while doing something you enjoy.

Networking with friends to get access to friends of friends of friends...typically comes with free vetting too. Same at work with colleagues. I had loads of dates sent my way this way.

OLD was fun, but equally a nightmare.

I would agree that a lot of men are pigs, and that's probably unkind to pigs. A lot aren't though, and they're definitely out there

@BasicDad, what's your thoughts on percentages for "lots"? Is it 80/20 or 50/50...we are also talking about single men only not married men.

The issues that turn off women are the 3 A's.
Affairs - more common in men?
Addictions - porn, alcohol, drugs, gambling, hobbies - more common in men?
Abuse - dv, emotional, financiial, lack of equality - more common in men?

Women are not immune to the negative behaviours but I think statistics back up women's experience that they are more common in men. If you exclude these behaviours and add in attractiveness and age then it's understandable why the pool of "normal" men is very small.

I'm raising boys so know men are not born like this.

@NCBlossom apparently 50% of couples now meet online and this is only increasing every year. I find this results in fewer people even bothering to try and meet in real life due to the lower barriers of entry online which only accelerates the problem.

Depressing!!

@Pastryapronsucks

I think one of the issues is that what we regard as normal, or perhaps reasonable is a better term, change with personal experience and time.

As I have got older (and perimenopausal) my tolerance for BS, drama, posturing, and ego have declined, whereas these traits may have attracted me in my youth. Sad thing is these traits can increase in some men during and post their MLC.

I am sure everyone has an ideal partner somewhere, they just might be on another continent!

I agree with that about changing preferences over time. Certainly when I was young, I'd be attracted to the "bad boy" types (egos, confidence, rough looks, "look at me" attention seeking behaviour (fast cars) etc). But a lot of that was knowing I wasn't looking for long term commitment so it really was just a matter of a bit of fun at the time.

As I matured, that kind of bloke really started to be a real turn off, and I started being attracted to the more serious/quiet types. Probably my mind telling me to be looking for a long term partner rather than short term "fun". So over time, my mind started to take over and block the signals as to what my body wanted!

Perhaps that's why the older blokes look for younger women? Is it that they know that younger women are more likely to be looking for adventure, drama, etc., (i.e. more immature) as opposed to older/similar aged women who generally won't put up with that kind of nonsense. Basically, is it that blokes don't want to grow up/mature out of their younger, badly behaving days, whereas woman mature and grow up and want security etc rather than excitement?

I think if I found myself single again I wouldn't rely bother looking for a 'partner'. I would spend my time with my male friends for laughs and fun secure in the knowledge that much as I love them they would be crsp partner material. For emotional comfort, straight talking and gossip I would turn to my girl freinds. My dog and pony fulfill the love criteria, then I would just have a string of hook ups to keep the chimneys swept

@Fireflygal

I would agree that a lot of men are pigs, and that's probably unkind to pigs. A lot aren't though, and they're definitely out there

@BasicDad, what's your thoughts on percentages for "lots"? Is it 80/20 or 50/50...we are also talking about single men only not married men.

The issues that turn off women are the 3 A's.
Affairs - more common in men?
Addictions - porn, alcohol, drugs, gambling, hobbies - more common in men?
Abuse - dv, emotional, financiial, lack of equality - more common in men?

Women are not immune to the negative behaviours but I think statistics back up women's experience that they are more common in men. If you exclude these behaviours and add in attractiveness and age then it's understandable why the pool of "normal" men is very small.

I'm raising boys so know men are not born like this.

Not sure about most of that.

Affairs - who do these men have affairs with?
Addictions - quite possibly some of those (porn, gambling). Alcoholism is probably fairly similar between the sexes. Women can have different vices too - shopping, clothes, handbags, shoes etc
Abuse - I think there is still such a huge stigma about men being victims of abuse that it's not easy to judge. Plenty of blokes end up getting a slap of their partner, but it's often just accepted and shrugged off by society, and even by the authorities: 'he probably deserved it". And coercive/non physical abuse is more common from women than physical too. Hopefully the stigma will begin to reduce and we'll start to see more equality there with more male victims coming forward (although I think we're still some way from that reality).

And as for the original question - where are all the good men? Well they're in the same place as all the good women. Majority of them are taken - in loving, long term relationships. The older you get, the less and less are left in the dating pool (from about age 30 to 40 at least). And when good men and women become available, they don't tend to stay single for very long before someone snaps them up.

There's also the psychology of online dating that really doesn't help - just the sheer availability of people to swipe on, and the detachment from reality. It leads to perpetual daters and unicorn hunters - an addiction to finding someone/something that doesn't exist.

In every single OLD profile, people state what they're looking for, want and need, but very rarely does anyone state what they offer/bring to the table. Most people find it quite hard to actually look at themselves and judge what they have to offer in comparison to what they want from someone else. People say never to compromise, but isn't that what relationships are all about?

@Fireflygal I think it's really difficult to estimate percentages. I'd guess at least 1/3. It's really quite common. It does give, what I think are still the majority, a bad name though.

I'd agree that men are an order of magnitude worse than women on the whole. As you say, it doesn't make women immune. But it is pretty depressing when you think about it. No wonder both sexes feel like pool of nice normal people is small.

I’ll be honest too I find the whole sexual attraction vs long term great partner is confusing for me!

On OLD I could (sometimes!) attract men who were quite sexy. And that was quite nice in one way, but made me very wary as my Ex, who cheated, was very much like that but seemed such a decent man too.

I find trying to see pass sexual attractiveness quite difficult. And quite depressing with OLD. Do I go for the much older man who I’m not attracted to, but who will be ‘grateful’ I’m younger and more attractive? Hit on by younger men but really quite wary they are wanting the ‘older woman in bed’ experience and I really don’t have the time to dick around.

I want love! And passion! And a nice decent man. It feels incredibly hard to find someone basically my own age, who I am even the smallest bit attracted to, but who also is decent too as I believe I am also decent would be loyal, kind and loving.

It’s OLD brutally makes it all a bit of a trading game!

Hi Op. I wanted to comment because the man you've described sounds exactly like my ex (even down to having two kids he sees three days a week and a good job, and he ended up leaving me for a 'friend' he'd had for years, eek)... anyway, he too seemed like a different person at first, compared to what he eventually became. Suddenly being unreliable cancelling plans last minute, or postponing, while making a lot of excuses and being self-deprecating but evasive was just the first step, the tip of the iceberg. He ended up being a pathological liar with some serious demons, and sadly our "relationship" went on for years and his psychological abuse left me with PTSD. I wish I had left as soon as those first red flags appeared.

So if you can leave now, I think it will save you in the long run... but if he is anything like my ex, he will probably become miraculously interested in you again if he thinks you're going to leave him or if you pull away... and he might temporarily put in a big effort to seem reliable and trustworthy... but ultimately he will then once again become his unreliable self... during the times he is cancelling plans or acting like a mere lunch date is a marriage proposal, he is potentially talking to other women... people like this don't work on their issues or grow from them, they usually line up a new partner before they've even ended their current relationship, and getting out of the relationship early is the best for your mental health long-term if the man is being unreliable and hot and cold. I'm also happy on my own, and that's a healthy mindset to have.

@altmember
‘ Affairs - who do these men have affairs with?
Addictions - quite possibly some of those (porn, gambling). Alcoholism is probably fairly similar between the sexes. Women can have different vices too - shopping, clothes, handbags, shoes etc
Abuse - I think there is still such a huge stigma about men being victims of abuse that it's not easy to judge. Plenty of blokes end up getting a slap of their partner, but it's often just accepted and shrugged off by society, and even by the authorities: 'he probably deserved it". And coercive/non physical abuse is more common from women than physical too. Hopefully the stigma will begin to reduce and we'll start to see more equality there with more male victims coming forward (although I think we're still some way from that reality).’

Who are the having affairs with ? Often women who have no idea they are married !

You compare shoe or handbag shopping addictions to porn addiction ? Wow just wow. Demeaning women , using webcams supporting sites that upload non consensual content is no worse in your eyes than too much shopping ?
How on earth can someone possibly compare demeaning women to handbags and shoe addiction . That is the kind of attitude that is being talked about here.
Comparing women to products !!!!!!
Exactly what many men do !!!!!
How about using prostitutes ? Are you claiming women do this as often too? Webcams ? Massage parlours for happy endings ?

As for the violence , sure there are Male victims of domestic violence however not even close to the number of females
Men are commiting most of the gender based violence on the planet , just a fact . Or are you claiming that the media is hiding or not reporting the dead men daily killed by their wives
Is there also a conspiracy to hide the stats on single fathers and women dodging child support

‘ And as for the original question - where are all the good men? Well they're in the same place as all the good women. ’

They are certainly not making nonsensical arguments that women are using sex services
Exploiting men sexually like men do to women
And committing violence at anywhere near the same rate as men
They especially are not comparing porn addiction to buying too many shoes and handbags.

@altmember yes the overwhelming perpetrators of violence and domestic abuse of any form (emotional also) are men against women and in some cases men against men.
Men more than women will have affairs (my Ex had affairs with women who were unattached and he lied and said he was single/in a separated relationship). However it is nothing like the disparity of domestic abuse which is predominantly male driven by control. I don’t now the most reliable figures, but I think domestic abuse is something like 95% by men, but cheating is probably more like 70% (sorry not looked up off the top of my head but it won’t be that far out)
Porn addiction - almost exclusively male even if they seem to find a women every time it’s on the media!

It is rarely women against men from almost all research, studies, reports etc. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen of course, the sad thing is abuse is still to rife and even though rare, there are a significant number of women who abuse.

Also, in no way saying that to say that all men commit abuse or violence. I have lovely sons, brothers, uncles, friends etc like anyone.

But we must look at the evidence squarely. These are robust studies that are better at finding the truth that our own beliefs or anecdotal reports.

So it does mean, that there are unfortunately potentially more men out there with serious issues than women. How much that is percentage I don’t know. I know that I am fussier about men now, in a way that men aren’t that I meet - because I was cheated on and there was emotional abuse too. Most men I meet out dating do not have the same trauma I guess in their past relationships. So will not be so ‘wary’.

@NCBlossom I have the same problem. The men I'm sexually attractive to are not good partners, especially in the long term. However on the flip side I need sexual attraction to be there so I don't entertain men who I'm sure would make great partners. I can't square this circle so I've decided to stay single.

Men more than women will have affairs (my Ex had affairs with women who were unattached and he lied and said he was single/in a separated relationship)

yougov.co.uk/topics/lifestyle/articles-reports/2015/05/27/one-five-british-adults-admit-affair

the number of men and women who have ever had an affair is essentially the same (20% and 19%)

Yes , if we put the anecdotal experiences of everyone , women and men , aside the stats don’t lie

The sex industry clients are by far mostly men
The perpetrators are violence are by far mostly men
The parents dodging child support are by far mostly men
Etc
Men , and some women are constantly attempting to gaslight women that their experiences are not real or that they are the problem
But the data supports it all

I also agree that there are lovely men out there who are not mysogynistic and I am lucky enough to have a few I’m my life , but I honestly feel they are in a minority , making it harder for women when looking for a partner

@Journeyofthedragons

Men more than women will have affairs (my Ex had affairs with women who were unattached and he lied and said he was single/in a separated relationship)

yougov.co.uk/topics/lifestyle/articles-reports/2015/05/27/one-five-british-adults-admit-affair

the number of men and women who have ever had an affair is essentially the same (20% and 19%)

Are the percentages of women and men using sex services like prostitutes and webcams the same Many women consider this an affair or equivalent even though it would t technically be counted in those stats .