Where do they hide the normal men?

[Ihaveroyallyscrewedup]

Is there some island they all live on, some secret place only a few know of?
The most recent seemed like a safe bet, known each other for many years, well enough to know a fair amount of detail about each other’s lives. In that time he’s always seemed stable, good job, own house, two children he has three days a week, wise enough to have asked my advice before he has taken action because he has recognised he may be unreasonable and being a dick. For reasons which are irrelevant we have never dated but there has always been chemistry so we found ourselves in a place where we think ok let’s date and suddenly he’s turned in to this unreliable, non communicative man who treats a suggestion of lunch as if you had just proposed marriage, buying a house and having triplets all at the same time!
So time to throw this one back which is a shame as we have been friends a long time.

@WashingMachineDrumFirePit

I am friends with three long term single men in their 50s.

First - lived with and cared for his mum after his dad died until she also died and kind of missed the boat. He tends to regard women as an unfathomable problem to be solved rather than people.

Second - places value on looks and body size above all else. To him, the woman you 'have' is a reflection of your own personal worth and measure of your success in life. He is still chasing women half his age and who will never be interested. He has let some really lovely women go over the years because they didn't look like the sort of woman he believed he deserved. As a friend he is lovely. As a boyfriend though...

Third - finds it difficult to relate to women he is romantically/sexually interested in. He just becomes awkward and weird! He and I get on brilliantly because he doesn't fancy me! If he could be the way he is with me with women he did like, he'd have no problem.

Three single men in their 50s who are each putting women off in their own way.

I don't know if it was your point, but the conclusion that SHOULD be drawn from this is that if you cannot find someone you want to be with, who also wants to be with you (after a period of time), the issue is more likely to be with the specific skills and traits you are lacking, rather than the failure of half the population to meet your expectations and "see your worth".

@BreadPita,

the issue is more likely to be with the specific skills and traits you are lacking, rather than the failure of half the population to meet your expectations and "see your worth

I don't know how you came to that conclusion. The post clearly said it was the traits of the single men that were putting off women.

Dillon.

That's unusual. Not saying not true. But very unusual.

I haven't met a girl or woman in my whole life who actively wanted to date men 20 years + older.

I have met some women who say they like older men. But their actual boyfriends/ partners/ blokes they fancy are a similar age.

I'm sure it happens.

Oh read some more. You're taking about essentially this recent and sadly fairly normalised sugar daddy thing. Even if not called that.

The vast vast majority of men are not rich. Or even if have some money. Not included to spend it on a short time for the ego boost of a young woman on their arm and to have sex with her.

Your post is so far from the real world. Where are all the men in their 40s with cash to burn and a really quite unpleasant transactional view of women sex etc?

I know plenty of men who are well off. Worked in city for yonks. They were the same as other men. When it came to real life. Well most men that age are in relationships. Very possibly young family. Their partners being women who they had things in common with and got on with. Women with similar education backgrounds. That they obviously were very fond of. They were with them because they got on well, had similar values etc, similar interest in things to talk about, made each other laugh, looked after each other when things were rubbish etc.

I mean sure there are young women who want material things, see it as transactional. Most men run a mile.

Your ideas about the proportion of people who are essentially living in pretty woman is massively overestimated.

In the end I think my rough conclusion is:

Women often struggle to find a decent bloke because. Men are unrealistic in their expectations. Because the woman has been there done that and learned. The sad fact is that due to a massive load of social norms. Loads of men really are a bit crap when it comes down to it. And online dating/ internet porn has made things loads worse.

For men the main complaint seems to be. Young women are only interested in rich, good looking, confident, fairly dominant men. And that is why I can't find a woman to go out with.
But if you're in your 40s as some posters are. Then why look for young women? I mean. It's reducing the odds of getting a girlfriend massively.
It ignores the fact that a simple trip to a pub, walk down the high street etc will reveal. Shocker. That most people who are obviously together are similar age and similar level of attractiveness. The idea it's all alpha men and hot young women is bizarre.

And for women it's I tried. Met up. Had a few dates. He did xyz. Tried a bit more. Just no he's not right for me.

With men it seems to be. Why won't they go out with me in the first place.

I mean that's what I've seen on the thread anyway.

[quote Fireflygal]@BreadPita,

the issue is more likely to be with the specific skills and traits you are lacking, rather than the failure of half the population to meet your expectations and "see your worth

I don't know how you came to that conclusion. The post clearly said it was the traits of the single men that were putting off women.[/quote]
Imagine a man told you that every woman he met was, in some way, too low quality for him. Which of the following would you assume was more likely to be true?

A) the population of decent, single adult women was genuinely infinitesimal.
B) he was lacking in relationship skills and/or unable to adjust his expectations to the level of woman that might give him the time of day based on his own qualities.

@breadpita
Blaming a woman who points out that all the men she’s met seem to think they deserve better , or think women don’t look like the type of women , they want might work if you didn’t have literally tons of women giving the same account . If you didn’t have even married women here all the time saying their husbands are addicted to porn, webcams etc

If you didn’t live in a world where psychologists and drs are talking about an issue with men and porn addiction … and yes this DOES affect how men behave with real life women and their expectations
If we didn’t live in a world where men showed their entitlement and bad attitudes towards women but

• statistics and research that shows men continue to be slack in the areas of carrying their share of childcare and housework even when women are working outside the home
• men harassing women online in large numbers

-dv , date rapes , revenge porn The list just goes on

Then perhaps you could come on and claim the issue is with the individual woman but whilst all those issues are continuing and growing I think you’ll just have to stop minimising what women are saying and accept that a lot of men are pretty bad

Breadpitta

As I mentioned earlier.

No woman says. He was low quality.

Women have lived and learned. And they go out hopefully. And the bloke turns out to be. Well any number of things that they don't find great.

Still they may give them a chance.

And in the end think. Well. No. He's (whatever) that is not appealing. Usually to do with personality/ behaviour.

Nothing to do with whatever 'quality' means.

Meanwhile the men on this thread mostly have had what most women would see as very odd attitudes.

And their complaint is that they can't get a date full stop.

Attitudes and beliefs like-

Women like bad boys (aka men who are a bit criminal, violent. Or arseholes).

Women like men who are rich tall handsome arrogant dominant suit wearing show offs.
(Erm. All women?).

Women are working on some kind of quality basis.
(Like in a poultry abbatoir?).

Very.. interesting.

I would propose.

That men who think women are operating on some quality definition (not defined).
Think women like dodgy nasty men and/ or think that all women are like a USA prog like sex in the city.

Need to consider that they aren't getting dates because they essentially think women are shallow, all the same, and have no interest in things like getting on with each other, sharing values/ sense of humour. Etc.

In short.

Try seeing women as people and not a different species who are all the same and trivial, totally different to normal people (men). And love s bit of geezer posture punch up bastardry.

And maybe you'll meet someone :)

I don’t know OP. I walked into the arms of neither a good looking or rich man, but one who I thought I was compatible, normal and kind. Turned out he was a womanising tosser!

So yes. Would love to know where they are now. But if I had been lucky enough to find a normal non- womanising man when I was in my 20s, I’d have hung onto him for dear life!

@NiceGerbil agree with you 100%

I read a depressing bit of research recently. From online dating apps. Apparently women are considered less significantly less attractive by all ages of men if they are over 25 and have a university degree.
Men are not judged as harshly my women on the apps. Especially with age, which doesn’t matter to most women. Although more men than women are on the apps.

Sigh…

There isn't a 'normal' one though- we all have flaws- most men wouldn't see me as a catch and my friends have on occasion said 'I couldn't live like that' about things I say in passing about dh (often late, messy etc) but we are an absolute match!!

[quote NCBlossom]@NiceGerbil agree with you 100%

I read a depressing bit of research recently. From online dating apps. Apparently women are considered less significantly less attractive by all ages of men if they are over 25 and have a university degree.
Men are not judged as harshly my women on the apps. Especially with age, which doesn’t matter to most women. Although more men than women are on the apps.

Sigh…[/quote]
Yep 22 was the age of women the vast majority whether 30 or 50 or 80 of men found most attractive whereas the majority of women were attracted to men close to their age
Sure. People will say oh but most won’t get a 22 year old
But some women don’t want to be with men who rate women like that and see their worth as based their age , who would ideally want a 22yr old but will take what they can get
That’s not what a lot of women would consider a ‘quality man ‘
Of course the fact a huge amount of them have online porn habits only makes it worse

Sure. People will say oh but most won’t get a 22 year old
But some women don’t want to be with men who rate women like that and see their worth as based their age , who would ideally want a 22yr old but will take what they can get

Precisely.

I think from reading many of the posts on MN that younger women are out enjoying themselves, partying, drinking, even sleeping around. Nothing wrong with it, no reason they shouldn't have fun when you're young. Problem with it is though you meet like minded young men and when you try to settle down there's no guarantee he'll settle as well, he may still be looking to go on with his lifestyle. By the time you want to settle you may find the 'steady' or 'boring' men who are happy to spend the weekend with the kids doing family things are actually already doing just that. If you are of the lets party type then the steady man may not be your match as while the children grow and you may find yourself with more time Mr Steady may want to spend it watching the telly and not going out and so became Mr Boring.

I don't know much about OLD we didn't have it when I was younger. Most met their partners at work/school/uni etc.

Mumsnet isn't the place to ask where are the nice men. It seems to have a high proportion of women with relationship issues, the women married to decent men probably don't use MN.

I read a depressing bit of research recently. From online dating apps. Apparently women are considered less significantly less attractive by all ages of men if they are over 25 and have a university degree

So I can’t be a man then ?, as I’m seeing someone older them me (and I’m really old) and who has an MA

@JustAnother0ldMan

I read a depressing bit of research recently. From online dating apps. Apparently women are considered less significantly less attractive by all ages of men if they are over 25 and have a university degree

So I can’t be a man then ?, as I’m seeing someone older them me (and I’m really old) and who has an MA

But you are not all men @justanotheroldman You do realise that right ? Your not even the majority. You are one man . And sure there are plenty of men dating women over 25 with degrees but it doesn’t mean they wouldn’t take a younger women in a flash if given the chance Not saying you would or wouldn’t and that’s really not relevant as you are just one man and l the statistics are far more reliable than a man standing up saying ‘ not all men ‘ The statistics do say that men in generals find women’s attractiveness decreases with age and that they are less attracted to educated women The research is out there and talks about patterns in men’s behaviour . It doesn’t single out justanotheroldmans preferences

I would have thought someone with an MA would understand that statistics that show women are considered significantly less attractive after 25 would understand that’s different to saying ‘ every man finds women over 25 unattractive or won’t date them

@kittenlittlen
@NiceGerbil

There are also a lot of forums where a lot of men complain about how unsuitable most women are nowadays. They're not taken particularly seriously either.

[quote BreadPita]@kittenlittlen
@NiceGerbil

There are also a lot of forums where a lot of men complain about how unsuitable most women are nowadays. They're not taken particularly seriously either.[/quote]
Lol oh yes I’m sure . I guess they are complaining that women are too fixated on silicon pixelated men to want them and watching barely legal teen boys, using webcam men and prostitutes
Or are they complaining women are not paying millions in child support , beating them and sexually harassing them online ?

Noooo , more likely they are complaining about being ‘friend zoned , women being too fat for their liking or not ‘giving’them enough sexual

That’s the big difference huh
When men have to worry about women’s it’s about not being satisfied or feeling luke the woman doesn’t meet their needs

When women have to worry about men it’s about sexual violation and their personal safety

And yeah I agree of course men don’t take us seriously ! That’s why there’s still so much of that crap happening in the world

[quote BreadPita]@kittenlittlen
@NiceGerbil

There are also a lot of forums where a lot of men complain about how unsuitable most women are nowadays. They're not taken particularly seriously either.[/quote]
Please point us in the directions of some of these forums you refer to so we can see men everyday complain of how women are sexually violating them , demeaning them and beating them , posting revenge porn , routinely in the millions abandoning their children and not paying child support , letting men take the lions share of unpaid work and childcare responsibilities

Yes, you're right, men who cannot get the women they want tend to have different complaints to the women who cannot get the men they want.
The topic wasn't originally about any of the things you mentioned though.

@breadpita

It’s important to recognise that when women are complaining about where are the good men , sure sometimes they might be referring to commitment phobia or flakiness , either of which can occur in either gender
However women need to be alert for red flags that can lead to much more serious consequences

Many of the things I refer to are problems with many men . It’s pretty difficult for women to find suitable men if a high proportion of them are porn addicted or show no empathy or don’t pay for children they have .
It’s not as simple as ‘ women saying they can’t get the men they want being different to the complaints of men who say they can’t get the women they want
The reason many women have these complaints is because of SERIOUS issues and it needs to be recognised that complaining that so many women arnt slim and I want a slim woman . Isn’t the same as so many men are demeaning to women , using web cams for example
There’s a real sense of entitlement where so many men think that complaining a woman doesn’t fit his dream woman is anything like women complaining that so many men can’t show simple respect for women or behave like decent human beings

[quote NCBlossom]@NiceGerbil agree with you 100%

I read a depressing bit of research recently. From online dating apps. Apparently women are considered less significantly less attractive by all ages of men if they are over 25 and have a university degree.
Men are not judged as harshly my women on the apps. Especially with age, which doesn’t matter to most women. Although more men than women are on the apps.

Sigh…[/quote]
There was a survey done by OkCupid back in 2009 that produced some surprising results and is an interesting read.

techcrunch.com/2009/11/18/okcupid-inbox-attractive/

"Women, on the other hand, are harsh with their ratings. According to the study, they rate a whopping 80% of men on the site as ‘below average’. My first guess was that there was an issue with self-selection here (i.e. unattractive men congregate on the site for whatever reason). But the study includes photos of four pretty normal looking guys who were all rated to be unattractive. And perhaps more telling: women don’t seem to be opposed to actually contacting these men that they’ve just deemed unattractive"

Yes it seems women base their decisions on attraction and how the person presents( the only thing one can go on with online forums ) and not youth /age like men do

Interesting that that same data shows men interested in men close to their age and not eating 22 as most attractive