Be honest. If a man expected you...

[AWiseWomanOnceSaidFuckThisShit]

to split the bill on a first date would it put you off?

@dontwantausername, why not have take a little trip to the 21st century?

@LargeBouquet Really? Dating and Relationships great for women now are they? I think they were better years ago, old fashioned dating without being pressurised by society into organising, paying on dates, having sex without commitment, moving in, children plus housework and working.

Now partly down to this equality you need 2 incomes for a family home that's ended the choice for many women to work. We have no choice now, we do everything and even buy the first drink! It's called progression.

You haven’t addressed why men should be the ones taking the lead.

It used to be the rule that a lady didn’t accept jewellery from a man unless they were engaged. Women who won’t accept dinner from a man seem to have gone to an extreme of puritanism beyond anything practised by recent generations. It implies a deep distrust. If you are meeting virtually maybe that’s justified, but if you actually know the man it seems very sad.

@NiminyNiminyNot

It used to be the rule that a lady didn’t accept jewellery from a man unless they were engaged. Women who won’t accept dinner from a man seem to have gone to an extreme of puritanism beyond anything practised by recent generations. It implies a deep distrust. If you are meeting virtually maybe that’s justified, but if you actually know the man it seems very sad.

It’s nothing to do with trust.

If it was a guy I knew saying they would like to take me out as a treat, that’s not the same as going out on a date. It’s a different dynamic. I don’t want to feel like I should be grateful for the big strong man paying for weak little me at the start of a relationship. There’s no equivalent that women should pay for first date. It’s reinforcing sexist attitudes.

@NiminyNiminyNot

It used to be the rule that a lady didn’t accept jewellery from a man unless they were engaged. Women who won’t accept dinner from a man seem to have gone to an extreme of puritanism beyond anything practised by recent generations. It implies a deep distrust. If you are meeting virtually maybe that’s justified, but if you actually know the man it seems very sad.

The only thing it implies is I don't expect anyone else to pay for me.

The rest of your post just odd.

[quote dontwantausername]@LargeBouquet Really? Dating and Relationships great for women now are they? I think they were better years ago, old fashioned dating without being pressurised by society into organising, paying on dates, having sex without commitment, moving in, children plus housework and working.

Now partly down to this equality you need 2 incomes for a family home that's ended the choice for many women to work. We have no choice now, we do everything and even buy the first drink! It's called progression. [/quote]
Let's unpick this, shall we? Are you very young? Because it sounds to me as if you must simply be terribly underinformed about the past. You cannot be actually getting misty-eyed and nostalgic for the paygap, the marriage bar, discrimination in hiring practices, women not having control over their own fertility or access to legal, safe abortions, women not being able to draw down a mortgage solo, marital rape being legal until 1991.

That's what a lack of choice looks like.

[quote dontwantausername]@LargeBouquet Really? Dating and Relationships great for women now are they? I think they were better years ago, old fashioned dating without being pressurised by society into organising, paying on dates, having sex without commitment, moving in, children plus housework and working.

Now partly down to this equality you need 2 incomes for a family home that's ended the choice for many women to work. We have no choice now, we do everything and even buy the first drink! It's called progression. [/quote]
Do you not enjoy sex? Why does sex have to be only if there's commitment? Why is it so transactional for you?

Unless you were of a privileged class, women have had to work throughout history - taking in washing, cleaning, growing food, selling produce, unpaid working in the family business, etc alongside whatever their great provider husbands were bringing in.

But ah the good old days, where women couldn't have their own bank accounts, and couldn't say no to their husbands, and had no contraception.

It used to be the rule that a lady didn’t accept jewellery from a man unless they were engaged

When was this the rule?

You so understand that there are lots of things that used to be commonplace rules, that no longer are, don’t you? Like nailing peoples ears to a pillory if they stole something.

It wouldn't put me off if they wanted to split the bill but it would give them an extra "point" if they were to pay. Just because it's a kind gesture and it would make me feel they were seriously interested in me if they wanted to treat me.

Although, I always offer to pay and I had a boyfriend who on our first date asked if we could split the bill before the waitress had even brought it to the table which I didn't like. It felt very awkward as I hadn't been given the chance to offer. I put my feelings of unease down to deep rooted sexism on my part and brushed them to the side but he turned out to very mean in all ways. He was very tight and a nasty, manipulative person to boot!

OTOH my boyfriend now wouldn't hear of me paying anything on our first date and he has turned out to be totally lovely. Very kind, generous and loving. Financially, things are very equal. We never split the bill but we take turns to treat each other so it all evens out and is just very effortless. I think our values just line up a lot more.

Might be a coincidence but for me, behaviour around money on the first date has signalled how the rest of the relationship would turn out.

Really? Dating and Relationships great for women now are they? I think they were better years ago, old fashioned dating without being pressurised by society into
organising, You're booking a restaurant not navigating peace in the Middle East. You don't want to have a say in where you go on a first date? Fine. But let's not pretend it's exactly difficult.
paying on dates,
having sex without commitment, Easy with widely available contraception, but not an obligation. Have sex with a man you're dating because you want to have sex with him (and vice versa). Don't want to? Don't do it.
moving in, children Again, choices. Don't want to do it, don't.
plus housework That's part of adult life. If your husband isn't doing his share of housework, then you've got a problem with your husband.
and working. Again something adults tend to do, so long as their physically and cognitively able. And, for most women, not a new thing. Most women have always worked- what's comparatively recent is that large numbers of women are able to work in well paid, professional careers.

Now partly down to this equality you need 2 incomes for a family home Nope, you need two incomes for a family home due to the massive rise in demand for houses- due to people being able to take out massive mortgages more easily- pushing up demand.
that's ended the choice for many women to work. Again, women working has rarely been a choice. For most women, it has always been a necessity. Or, otherwise, it has been denied. It's not that long ago that women were unable to work in some jobs after they married or got pregnant.
We have no choice now, Don't we? I realise that I've been assuming that you're in the UK, so possibly you're in a country where women have fewer options. But if you are in the UK, or another Western country with similar freedoms, you're scope of choice is a pretty big one.
we do everything and even buy the first drink! It's called progression I work. My husband works. I look after our children. My husband looks after our children. I do housework. My husband does housework. I get the bill on dates. My husband gets the bill on dates. I am very happy with my life. It's a vast improvement on my grandmother's in the supposedly golden days gone by.

i would offer but if he really insisted then i let him pay but that doesnt mean i would expect it every time i.e i would still offer next time if there was a next time

@Howshouldibehave
Yes. I said it used to be the rule. That means I know it isn’t any more.

@category12

*Unless you were of a privileged class, women have had to work throughout history - taking in washing, cleaning, growing food, selling produce, unpaid working in the family business, etc alongside whatever their great provider husbands were bringing in.

But ah the good old days, where women couldn't have their own bank accounts, and couldn't say no to their husbands, and had no contraception*

Maybe previously, but from the late 70's/80's it hasn't been like that for the majority of people in the UK.

It's sad that families now have to have a double income for basically the same standard of living that a single income provided back then.

[quote dontwantausername]@LargeBouquet Really? Dating and Relationships great for women now are they? I think they were better years ago, old fashioned dating without being pressurised by society into organising, paying on dates, having sex without commitment, moving in, children plus housework and working.

Now partly down to this equality you need 2 incomes for a family home that's ended the choice for many women to work. We have no choice now, we do everything and even buy the first drink! It's called progression. [/quote]
Years Ago when were pressured by society to marry a guy without any clue what he'd be like in bed or to live with, to give up work once married, to not leave an abusive marriage or divorce?

without being pressurised by society into organising "hi can i book a table for two at 6? Great. Thanks". You're right, so onerous. Abd no one is saying the guy shouldn't ALSO do it.
paying on dates again, men should ALSO do it but if you both work its reasonable i expect bankrolling so you can spend your wages on pretty dresses to impress him
having sex without commitment if you want sex without commitment, why shouldn't you have it? Or likewise say no? If a man is pressuring you into sex. you need to move on
moving in see above
children if you don't want them, say no to sex or use contraception. Lots of people don't have children until they're married
housework again something no one is saying he shouldn't also do
working you realise lots of women love their careers and wouldn't WANT to give them up? Or don't work and rely on a single income or don't work and accept help from benefits?

We have no choice now of course you do. You can choose to rent in an affordable area, you can choose to have fewer children, you can choose your lifestyle. Is it ideal? No, but that's always has and always will be life.
we do everything then you have a DH problem cos i don't!
and even buy the first drink! Of course he can buy it, or you can go halves, or take it in turns. Its just the EXPECTATION tbat you won't pay because you're female that's ridiculous

It wasn't until 1975 and the Sex Discrimination Act that a British woman could open a bank account in her own name.

It wasn't until 1991 that marital rape was recognised in law.

In the '70s when I was a kid, I remember the wives were working and making extra income where they could. Childcare, cleaning, bar work, etc. Even the doctor's wife - she was getting paid for looking after me.

I think people hark back to imaginary rosy times that didn't really exist for most women.

Yes. I said it used to be the rule

You did say that. I asked when. Did you answer?

“ I don’t want to feel like I should be grateful for the big strong man paying for weak little me at the start of a relationship.”
If not distrust, it sounds like extreme caution. If dating etiquette exists in a parallel world that doesn’t apply to other interactions between men and women, could someone please explain what the rules are. If the man can’t pay, can he suggest meeting, can he suggest the activity and venue? Can the woman pay for the whole thing? When can the man treat the woman?
I like rules and I’m not giving up the one that the inviter pays, so someone please just give me a coherent list that I could pass on to my daughter if I had one.

I don’t date men, because i believe that only contributes to the patriarchy.
I don’t think we can (girls and women) ever truly be free if women continue to date, marry, have sex, take men’s lastnames or birth more children.

Paying or not paying on first date has fuck all to do with equality.
I doesn’t change anything.
Men won’t treat you better or worse because of it.

I like rules and I’m not giving up the one that the inviter pays, so someone please just give me a coherent list that I could pass on to my daughter if I had one.

Men and women do not invite each other equally on dates. Many women seem to think that’s a man’s job, so why should they also be stuck paying for the whole thing?

The inviter can pay.
If you like a guy, invite him out. Don't sit there like a princess waiting for his to be for your company

@AhNowTed you couldn’t possibly lead a team of men, it’s not possible, please retreat into the safe submissive inferior role.

@Itsnotover you are correct, I have well almost, I will in a week or so two sons. My mentality hasn’t changed though, since of course the last ‘first date’ I had was with their father a long time ago. Actually that reminds me, I was and still am incredibly stubborn and head strong, it’s something he finds attractive in a woman and why were a good match. We earned the same when we met (net), now he earns 2.5 times (gross) what I do actually I’m on mat leave so it’s closer to 10 times at the minute but the dynamic hasn’t changed one iota.

I think we’re getting of topic a bit, the question is explicitly about first dates, not when you’re ‘in love’ that comes way after.

It’s interesting to hear so many with ‘small delicate woman’ views yet also complaining about the inequalities. I have never acted like the ‘small delicate woman’ and I’ve never been treated as one, I don’t think those things aren’t connected but I agree a sample size of 1 isn’t great data. I don’t think someone would be interested in me if they were the dominant type, they would and have found me incredibly frustrating.

Why have you got the impression I am being pressured by society @dontwantausername ? Sometimes I choose where to go, sometimes I don’t, since we’re only talking about first dates then I think it’s about equal at the moment in whether I chose or not. I only ever accepted if it were somewhere familiar and safe. I don’t like the idea that women just exist and do as men say, which is what you’re describing. Me and all the women in my family are quite happy doing as we please, not one relies on a man. They are free to leave, they are free to stay, there is no violence, there is no mental abuse. They have funds available because they work, the men they spend time with or choose to marry are all just because they enjoy their company. Not because they’re incapable of managing life themselves (essentially what I see when I read what you say about life being easier when you don’t have to decide where to eat and how you’re going to pay for it).

Sex without commitment, great if you don’t want commitment. I don’t see the problem here?

@Wrapitupgood I agree with you about the wealth imbalance and therefore who pays. If I’d like to eat at a nice restaurant and my friend says they can’t afford that, I would offer to cover their bill so that we could enjoy that place/time. I extend that to partners too, but not first dates, which we’re discussing here. They are the same in return.

@idontknowwhyiamasking what happens if someone finds men sexually attractive? Do we live a life without sex?

@SleepingStandingUp

The inviter can pay. If you like a guy, invite him out. Don't sit there like a princess waiting for his to be for your company

The point is many women do sit there like princesses waiting. To be asked on a date. For the bill to be paid for then. To have the door held open for them.

We earned the same when we met (net), now he earns 2.5 times (gross) what I do actually I’m on mat leave so it’s closer to 10 times at the minute but the dynamic hasn’t changed one iota

So you're earning a a small percentage of what he makes due to the fact you're a woman and biology dictates you carry the children and that hasn't shifted the dynamic? Wow