Be honest. If a man expected you...

[AWiseWomanOnceSaidFuckThisShit]

to split the bill on a first date would it put you off?

[quote dontwantausername]@AhNowTed

Wrapitupgood
Men who are tight with money also tend to be tight with their emotional intimacy and are selfish in bed.

OMG people keep saying stuff like this. Do they really not see how hypocritical and self-contradictory it is?

A man assuming that a woman will pay HER HALF of the bill is "tight with money".

But a woman assuming that a man will pay ALL of it, isn't?

C'mon. Seriously?

I know, it's HILARIOUS!

Regardless of sex stingy men and women should be avoided they make terrible friends and lovers. I am generous as are my friends. This isn't about money It's expectations. [/quote]
Hey, I totally agree with you.

Man or woman, the bill comes and he/she is dividing it to the last penny is not good.

The bill comes to say £50. I throw in my £30 and I expect them to do the same.

The bill comes to £45.. I don't expect my companion to split it £22.50 each. I expect us both to round it up to cover tip.

And any rudeness to waiting staff and I'm off.

'I used to embrace the logic that for women to be treated as equal to men, we should pay for our own share, and split the bill with our date. To make sure that's never a problem, I've always suggested affordable dating venues - cheap and cheerful restaurants, dive bars, gigs, parks.

About five years ago my friends and teachers introduced me to ideas that made me question that approach.

I became aware of feminist writers like Gloria Jean Watkins (known by her pen name bell hooks) who made me think about who benefits most from the current structure of society. She and others got me thinking about the way power functions at the every level, including small individual exchanges.'

I agree more with this way of thinking

www.bbc.com/news/world-46164568.amp

We are expected to be calmer, more attentive, understanding, flexible, and accommodating than men in every area of our lives - in family, work, relationships, and friendships. Meeting these norms is costly - materially and emotionally.

From that link..

This is exactly what women are saying they enjoy on this thread, they enjoy being submissive and ‘feminine’.

The only time those things will stop being the norm is when women decide to act differently, we are more powerful than some would have us believe.

Equality isn't based upon intelligence or capabilities @Bouledeneige - surely you can see this?

The structure of society is a very difficult thing to challenge when it's formulated by men for men.

And that's why women are still held to higher standards of behaviour than men.

It's why women still get slut shamed

It's why women still get paid less

And it's why women are still the ones who get used for sex and put through hell trying to prove that they were sexually assaulted.

Why then should we pretend that it's ok for men to expect us to act like everything is equal and it's all cool?

The only time those things will stop being the norm is when women decide to act differently, we are more powerful than some would have us believe.

This is a flawed argument because society is set up in a way that benefits men. By men.

And that's why women are still held to higher standards of behaviour than men. It's why women still get slut shamed. It's why women still get paid less. And it's why women are still the ones who get used for sex and put through hell trying to prove that they were sexually assaulted. why then should we pretend that it's ok for men to expect us to act like everything is equal and it's all cool?
And you're fighting that by letting men buy you dinner whilst you use your feminine energy to act submissive.

I wasn't the one talking about feminine energy & you've ignored the point of my argument

@FTEngineerM

Some of the posters like you are quite entertaining and would make lovely cheerful feminine dates, you're under estimating your feminine wiles. All you need to do is nothing! Let them crack on with planning and have a bit banter, that can be seen as flirting and men love it.

You are intellectualising dating to this "we're equal", we are not, never will be! Let's be brutally honest going Dutch and the sexual revolution of the 1960s did very little for women, it just put pressure on young women to have uncommitted sexual relationships, also co habitation it's just lead to no commitment from men but lots of benefits of marriage. I'm not having it that this attitude towards equality in dating is progression, it just not! The problem with women on the whole is by nature we tend to be agreeable (certainly more so than men). Therefore we've created this mess where women don't not have the power in the dating stage.

[quote Itsnotover]'I used to embrace the logic that for women to be treated as equal to men, we should pay for our own share, and split the bill with our date. To make sure that's never a problem, I've always suggested affordable dating venues - cheap and cheerful restaurants, dive bars, gigs, parks.

About five years ago my friends and teachers introduced me to ideas that made me question that approach.

I became aware of feminist writers like Gloria Jean Watkins (known by her pen name bell hooks) who made me think about who benefits most from the current structure of society. She and others got me thinking about the way power functions at the every level, including small individual exchanges.'

I agree more with this way of thinking

www.bbc.com/news/world-46164568.amp[/quote]

Honestly this is such nonsense.

The idea that not paying your way is somehow striking out to balance the gender pay gap, is so counter productive.

As long as you think that way, that men need to pay because women are (on the whole) paid less, just perpetuates the idea that we should be paid less.

www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jan/26/girls-believe-brilliance-is-a-male-trait-research-into-gender-stereotypes-shows

From a young age, girls perceive males as innately more brilliant. Why do you suppose this is? It's because men are the ones in control and it's because that's difficult to change. It's not because girls grow up with their parents telling them that boys are cleverer.

Societal structure is so hard wired.

If a man has more power from the outset of a hypothetical relationship, then showing attentiveness on an initial date goes a long way.

The same goes for making sure I get home ok or asking me to text when I got back.

Itsnotover. Of course I understand that women are not treated equally in society. How could I not be aware in my professional life getting to a senior level - of the glass ceiling, of the different standards applied to me as averse to my male colleagues, the direct and indirect sexism that I have been dealt with?

But I don’t understand your logic. How does that explain expecting a man to pay for my dinner? When I am well, if not more, able to pay for it? Please explain how that will alleviate inequality and sexism?

With that logic we’d all accept that women should stay in the kitchen and serve their men. Because we’re not equal are we? Come on. You can do better than that.

But I don’t understand your logic. How does that explain expecting a man to pay for my dinner? When I am well, if not more, able to pay for it? Please explain how that will alleviate inequality and sexism?

My answer to this is, it won't. And neither will me wanting to date a man who prefers to split the bill.

....and this way you get a free dinner

@Journeyofthedragons

....and this way you get a free dinner

It's actually not about getting things for free. But you know that

@Bouledeneige

Itsnotover. Of course I understand that women are not treated equally in society. How could I not be aware in my professional life getting to a senior level - of the glass ceiling, of the different standards applied to me as averse to my male colleagues, the direct and indirect sexism that I have been dealt with?

But I don’t understand your logic. How does that explain expecting a man to pay for my dinner? When I am well, if not more, able to pay for it? Please explain how that will alleviate inequality and sexism?

With that logic we’d all accept that women should stay in the kitchen and serve their men. Because we’re not equal are we? Come on. You can do better than that.

Totally.

I don't get it either.

Are we supposed to tell our daughters, sorry love, forget it, just smile nicely and hopefully a man with a wallet will come to your rescue.

Have I wasted my whole life working, building my career, raising children to see their mother working, when all the while I needn't have bothered, as it's not "feminine" or "traditional", and just get a man to pay for me.

No it's about starting how you mean to continue. Subservient.

@Itsnotover

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jan/26/girls-believe-brilliance-is-a-male-trait-research-into-gender-stereotypes-shows

From a young age, girls perceive males as innately more brilliant. Why do you suppose this is? It's because men are the ones in control and it's because that's difficult to change. It's not because girls grow up with their parents telling them that boys are cleverer.

Societal structure is so hard wired.

If a man has more power from the outset of a hypothetical relationship, then showing attentiveness on an initial date goes a long way.

The same goes for making sure I get home ok or asking me to text when I got back.

But if you're concerned about girls thinking boys are better, or his higher power in a relationship, how does expecting him to pay help? You say it won't, so what - he should pay in general because its fair retribution for male privilege? Oh we can never be equal to men, so they can pay for everything and assert their masculinity through the phallic symbol of their wallet because I'll on average i won't earn as much as him??

And i will not be raising to three sons to pay for everything because they're a man and therefore they're superior so it's only fair.

Pay because you invited her out and thata good manners. Pay because at this moment you earn more or have more disposable income. Pay because you love her and want to treat her or you just really fancy her and want to impress her. But not because your penis makes you Better and this is your penance

Pay because you invited her out and thata good manners. Pay because at this moment you earn more or have more disposable income. Pay because you love her and want to treat her or you just really fancy her and want to impress her. But not because your penis makes you Better and this is your penance

But this is actually my point!

I can’t help but notice on these threads that it’s always the mothers of boys that are the most defensive.

I would honestly be steering my son away from a lot of entitled "the-man-pays" posters on this thread.

It's fucking pathetic.

@AhNowTed

I would honestly be steering my son away from a lot of entitled "the-man-pays" posters on this thread.

It's fucking pathetic.

Maybe some mothers would like to see their son as the more dominant (not physically) partner in a relationship.

Some of the posters like you are quite entertaining and would make lovely cheerful feminine dates, you're under estimating your feminine wiles. All you need to do is nothing! Let them crack on with planning and have a bit banter, that can be seen as flirting and men love it.

I can't actually tell if you're being serious. A sense of humour is not a feminine wile. Have you never just gone on a date and just, you know, been yourself? Instead of playing up to what you think men will love.

@Itsnotover

Pay because you invited her out and thata good manners. Pay because at this moment you earn more or have more disposable income. Pay because you love her and want to treat her or you just really fancy her and want to impress her. But not because your penis makes you Better and this is your penance

But this is actually my point!

I can’t help but notice on these threads that it’s always the mothers of boys that are the most defensive.

What is actually your point? Because it works both ways. If i had a daughter I'd also tell her ay because you invited him out, you earn more, you have more money, you want to treat him and impress him but not because you have to compensate for your vagina making you inferior.

My boys are 6 and 1, god knows what Gen A's attitude to dating will be in 10-20 years 🤣 so really not defensive on their behalves.

god knows what Gen A's attitude to dating will be in 10-20 years 🤣

Ain't that the truth 😆

Maybe the trans movement will be so far ahead no one will identify as male or female and they'll just have "human energy" and do Dutch on everything.

Also why is it going Dutch? And using condoms and the pill is double dutch?