Is it ok for my wife to have lunch with another unmarried man I do not know?

[cervera]

Trying not to go mad at the moment - we have been married for 30 years, like every marriage it has had its ups and downs, but I would say we have a good marriage, my wife said the same just the day. We have two grown up children both now happily married and moved out. I really love my wife, she is my rock, I think she is hot...late last year she met this other unmarried man (her friend called him Eye Candy!)...they volunteer together for a charity, she was his mentor and all was fine. After the mentorship ended, they met for coffee, to discuss the volunteering roll and at this point I was not even thinking any bad thoughts. Then there was another coffee and a long walk, it was not a secret, she was very open about it - but I then started to be unsure. They shared lots it seems, they had a report she said, she really liked his 'banter'. His name came into conversation often.

There were fairly frequent WhatsApp’s between them - then there was an evening drink suggested, which really started to worry me - but I did not want to be an arse and upset a new friendship which she seemed to value greatly. I know my wife was unsure about it – she joked she was going for a drink with ‘her lover’ and admitted it made her feel good. I thought it would be a quick glass of wine and not much more, but four hours later - I was then really getting concerned. She came home and immediately fell asleep (she is not a big drinker) but I wanted to talk to her and tell her I was feeling unhappy about this now. They had discussed lots it seems, including him telling her that his latest relationship had just finished – but my wife had shared some things about me, that I was not comfortable with.

I did not sleep that night, until she woke up and asked if I was OK. I then said NO and told her why, I was feeling left out, jealous, unsure for the first time in 30 years…would she like it if I was doing the same? She was shocked, I said “you are a beautiful looking woman’ why would he not be interested in you – it was a difficult conversation – she then, I thought understood how I felt, could see how upset I was and said she would stop it. Another week passed – she came home much later than I thought from volunteering – they had been out for another coffee. I must of looked strange and went quiet - she was mad at me for trying to ruin her friendship.

I backed off, thinking it was all me being paranoid (please tell me if I am) but I could not settle, work, sleep, do anything – it then blew up 48 hours later – I said I cannot handle this and she called him and told him – they better not meet again, as ?! (my name) does not like this. Eventually things calmed down – but on holiday the WhatsApp started again from him – including a message saying – “…have not been in touch much as ?! (my name) does not like it” – I am thinking WTF, you know I asked this to stop and you are still doing it. Even the WhatsApp messaged ended with a X…the content was nothing much other than “we are sharing a shift together soon, fancy lunch before?”.

Well the next lunch is 10 days away, I feel crap, cannot sleep, work is tough – but am I being paranoid, I am trying to be cool about – my wife has told me it is happening – I do not want to cause another eruption and say NO you cannot go – it is not my place to do that. She can see I am stressed, but this friendship seems more important than my feelings and emotions. She seems to think it is all fine, but I know men, it helps being one!!!

Maybe I am over thinking this? Insecure? I do not want other men telling me to go around and smack him, that’s for sure. But there is no one to talk to about this? Thoughts? Advice?

I'm female. Been married 15 years. Have always had male friends who my husband knows about but (aside from one), has never met, one of which I meet up with occasionally for a meal and chat.

My husband is totally OK with it because he knows they are just friends and nothing un-toward has ever happened..I don't hide the fact I whatssapp them, don't hide the fact we might meet for a meal, I don't hide anything. It's no big deal.

Would it make you feel more at ease if you were to suggest joining them one day so you can meet him??

I think how innocent it all is would depend on how your wife/her friend would react to maybe joining them for a coffee one day.... or maybe suggest having a get together with a few people and suggest inviting him too...?

Tell you what mate if she's sneaking about and choosing his company over yours that's unfortunately her choice. Your understandably not happy about it and neither would I be. If I was you I'd let it ride for now and let her trip herself up perhaps you could turn up where they're at and judge their reactions. Or just observe them from a distance. She's not sufficiently bothered how you feel to change the situation.
If someone's going to cheat not a lot you can do about it.

If she is already having an affair or has developed feelings I agree there's not a lot you can do. On the other hand, if its early enough and its still just a casual ego boost thing, you could still head it off before it develops into something more important to her. You would need to be clear that the marriage was at stake if she didn't stop, and it may be that however much she enjoys the other situation, she wouldn't want to lose her marriage over it. I think the worst thing you can do is ignore it though. There is every sign this is heading for an affair, if not already, and by tolerating it you are making it easier and therefore potentially more likely.

I think you got the right feelings. It does not sound right. It is mentionitis, spending time enough talking to him that you notice, and for whatever reason the Eye Candy shit, and "lover" came from! That is actually taking the peace. She is in or starting an emotional affair, or at least being no emotionally avaible and committed to you.
Of course you feel insecure and jealous.
Now.... the sad part, you are going a bit wrong about it.... you have expressed your feelings, good. You cannot really stop her, though nothing wrong in asking for it. You see, if she decides that she would do it, she will. You need to tell her that you love her, that this is not feeling good to you, that you want her, and now does she want you? If so, she better shows it. What about talking to you instead of this guy on whatsapp? What about inviting you to meet up with him? If nothing is untowards then no issue. You will most likely like him and all (I doubt it as you already dislike him, but you can see the vibes in person, very important). What about stopping saying bullshit like "my lover"? I think she actually wanted to spur you, see if you still loved and fancied her, because this one is really "in your face"!
And what about stopping discussing you and her marital issues with her "friends", specially male? And blaming you for your natural reaction to her "my lover" comment?
Oh, she knows she is failing as a wife. But you can only make your point clear. And as a poster said, leave or wait to see what she will do.
It is a really sad situation OP. Try to keep as much dignity as possible. It is the toughest.
I think tougher than a full physical affair, because it makes you feel needy, like you are over-reacting, insecure...... and so on and on.

Read Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass and give it to your wife to read.
See a solicitor to see how the financials would work.
This is an emotional affair, with a swift and firm response from you it might end, if it doesn't don't torture yourself, leave.

An emotional affair is where you are watering the grass elsewhere, which is what she is doing. Things bloom where they are watered, and die where they are not. She’s not ‘watering’ your relationship, is she?

@SpnBaby1967

All my friends are male pretty much, I met them all through my hobby.

I'd be gutted if I couldn't meet or chat to any of them because my husband was jealous or paranoid and to be fair he never says a word against it. But then he has female friends and shock horror even went to visit one and stay the night and I was fine because I trust DH implicitly.

I suppose that's the crux isnt it..do you trust her implicitly? Even if this other man was interested does that mean she would do anything. She sounds like she was open and honest with you until you started moaning and questioning her ability to adhere to her marriage vows.

Yeah but I imagine yours and your dh's friends are probably pretty well established? Not just suddenly popped up to take you for a drink, claiming to have feelings for you? Do you both say things like "I'm going out with my lover now" and gloat about how "the attention makes me feel good"?

Thought not.
That's the difference.

You’ve got great advice so far @cervera

What do you think?

I agree with this:

Nothing wrong with having lunch, but this is way more than this, they are clearly very close and their relationship is very one on one. I sometimes go for a drink with people I volunteer with but they might bring their partners and it's very much open to anyone not a cosy one to one

But if you want to know what I really think, here goes. I think your wife is looking for attention & spice without technically breaking the rules. The fact she joked & called him ‘her lover’ says a lot! Who knows what his intentions are but based on my experience with men & what you’ve written, I’d say it’s one of these:

1. He fancies her

OR … more likely …

1. He is using her as his counsellor and female confidante as so, so, so so many men do to their female friends, good-looking or not! He will then drop her like a hot cake as soon as he’s seeing someone new.

It’s a story as old as time. Sweep her off her feet & also tell her you’d like to join them next time. Go out of your way to get on with him. Ask him over for dinner. Make it so that it’s virtually impossible for them to be alone.

At some point down the line when your wife has fallen back in love with you ( in the romantic sense), you ask one day over a glass of Rioja, ‘so what was all that about?’ Meanwhile, Mr Volunteer will be shacked up with someone else by then & well off the scene…

I hope you sleep tonight. Let us know what you think.

I’m fed up reading shite on here that men and women can’t be friends. No it’s not necessarily an “emotional affair” (a mumsnet phenomenon) it’s a friendship that started without your involvement and happens at her place of work/volunteering. So to shoehorn yourself into it is just very undignified but also unsubstantiated.

The talk of “but it is upsetting the husband so therefore should stop” isn’t valid to me. Ok so it’s upsetting you, but you may be completely wrong that it’s inappropriate and your wife is holding her ground in what she may see as “being told what to do” and “who she can and cannot be friends with”.

Nobody knows yet, if it’s more, or less then you’re fearing. All you can do is talk to her.

Cervera, their friendship has escalated to an emotional affair.

Your W is creating distance between you to justify her infidelity. She is devaluing/dismissing your feelings and stomping on your boundaries because she is addicted to the ego massages engendered by this OM.

You would be very unwise to underreact here. She is manipulating you with her ‘You’re trying to ruin my friendship’ to make you back off. Don’t fall for it. Tell her that you won’t tolerate being made a fool of. Tell her that she can prioritize OM and set up cozy dates all she wants, but not while married to you.

@MsDogLady

Cervera, their friendship has escalated to an emotional affair.

Your W is creating distance between you to justify her infidelity. She is devaluing/dismissing your feelings and stomping on your boundaries because she is addicted to the ego massages engendered by this OM.

You would be very unwise to underreact here. She is manipulating you with her ‘You’re trying to ruin my friendship’ to make you back off. Don’t fall for it. Tell her that you won’t tolerate being made a fool of. Tell her that she can prioritize OM and set up cozy dates all she wants, but not while married to you.

Oh for gods sake

Oh op I'm so sorry, you must be heartbroken, after 30 years I'm sure you know your wife well enough to know when she's had her head turned.

Some of the pp's who suggest you're over reacting can't possibly understand the dynamics and boundaries within your relationship that have kept you together for so long.

I'm sure you are not over reacting, and the only excuse for her behaviour would be if in the past you had hurt her similarly and it was payback time.

Anyway, yes it's an emotional affair, sexual I don't know but she doesn't appear to want it to stop. It truly is dreadful when someone you know so well disregards your feelings and you are left to watch on the sidelines whilst your love falls for someone else.

What I will say is, if she carries on there is nothing you can do, except divorce.
If she stops and recognises she has hurt you, the pain doesn't end there, you will not trust her for a long time, you will be hyper vigilant and your pick me dance will turn into resentment.

She is on a path of destruction of your whole family, I doubt she has given much thought of the children knowing, people at volunteering, friends and extended family.

Don't be railroaded into thinking you are a jealous, paranoid insecure shell of a man, you are not being unreasonable to expect her to cut all communication and even to end her work with him.
This is her get out of jail free card, I hope she accepts it because if not there is going to be so much pain ahead for all your family.

She is being a very selfish woman.

but my wife had shared some things about me, that I was not comfortable with

This is over the line. And hugely inappropriate with a colleague.

But if you knew it was upsetting your partner and causing distress yet still did it regardless of his feelings? so if one party doesn’t like it the other party should stop even if it’s innocent? Even if it’s because the demanding party is controlling/jealous? Okayyy.

I think the term emotional affair is thrown around far too regularly on here. Given that talking to someone of the opposite sex on anything more than a professional level is termed an emotional affair The general acceptance is that it’s never ok to do anything with a member of the opposite sex.

Wonder what people do when they’re bisexual? Should they never have friends?

An emotional affair is if a couple are exchanging sexual messages about how they want to be together/what they want to do to each other etc. Having conversations and even being supportive is not an emotional affair.

I have several male friends, many of whom I’ve been friends with for decades. Most of them haven’t met my partner because of distance. One at least speaks to me regularly, when I was in hospital he made the effort to come and see me, in ICU, which is not a place for the faint-hearted.

If my partner started demanding that I not speak to him because he didn’t like it the partner wouldn’t be around for long.
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And all this “of course he fancies you,” crap is just used as a reason to suggest there’s more going on when there isn’t.

I think the term emotional affair is thrown around far too regularly on here. Given that talking to someone of the opposite sex on anything more than a professional level is termed an emotional affair The general acceptance is that it’s never ok to do anything with a member of the opposite sex.

@AlternativePerspective agree with you. When people on here say it’s an “emotional affair” it is often an actual, real, friendship, a non-superficial one! And married people are actually allowed to have them!!!

I see it on here all the time that people confuse a real friendship (and not a superficial one) as an affair and as a previous poster even said, must only happen “in a group”.

I also don’t get why it’s so bad she has talked to this friend about her husband. Wouldn’t it be worse if she didn’t talk about her husband? Friends talk about their relationships.

Again, people seeing a threat in a friendship.

@Mary1Mary

but my wife had shared some things about me, that I was not comfortable with

This is over the line. And hugely inappropriate with a colleague.

Why?

I would not like this at all. She knows you are uncomfortable with this situation but she really doesn’t care. I would think there was something more than an innocent friendship going on here. It’s difficult, you can’t force her to stop seeing him obviously, but if you say nothing she will carry on as she is and I don’t see that as being a positive for your marriage at all .

@KimDeals Why?

Let me explain, oh no wait...

I've sent a private message to Mrs Dog Lady about yours and Alternative's posts. I can tell you it's not derogative but you will never know because it's private and we've excluded you.

Now I know that won't bother you as you do not know me from Adam but if you were married to me that could hurt.

Surely you can see that a 30 year marriage involves being not only sexually intimate but emotionaly intimate to be so exclusive that it lasts so long.

Long marriages have their very own dynamics and values, maybe not the same as yours but honestly are you that pedantic that you feel your own values must be applied to op's situation.

she then, I thought understood how I felt, could see how upset I was and said she would stop it. Another week passed – she came home much later than I thought from volunteering – they had been out for another coffee.

I think this is all kind of shifty @cervera. I would be upset too.

@Onthedunes yes! 'Surely you can see that a 30 year marriage involves being not only sexually intimate but emotionaly intimate to be so exclusive that it lasts so long.

Long marriages have their very own dynamics and values, maybe not the same as yours but honestly are you that pedantic that you feel your own values must be applied to ops situation'

I agree, the dynamic has changed in the Ops marriage, something about the way the op's wife is acting in this new friendship is making him question if he is being unreasonable, or if there is something he should be worried about.

The op wasn't uncomfortable at first with the new friendship, unless there is a massive back story we don't know about, it is this new relationship that is making them both act out of the usual for their relationship dynamic.

I don't know if there is an emotional affair or not, but I have learnt to trust my gut, if things seem off they usually are. That doesn't mean that the relationship is doomed, as someone else said, she may be looking for something that the Op has stopped providing, emotionally.

[quote Onthedunes]@KimDeals Why?

Let me explain, oh no wait...

I've sent a private message to Mrs Dog Lady about yours and Alternative's posts. I can tell you it's not derogative but you will never know because it's private and we've excluded you.

Now I know that won't bother you as you do not know me from Adam but if you were married to me that could hurt.

Surely you can see that a 30 year marriage involves being not only sexually intimate but emotionaly intimate to be so exclusive that it lasts so long.

Long marriages have their very own dynamics and values, maybe not the same as yours but honestly are you that pedantic that you feel your own values must be applied to op's situation.[/quote]
What I am thinking about here is the wife’s values - she needs the friendship or she wouldn’t bother with it. So what is going on there? She’s being called “selfish” etc on here and all we know right now is she is making a new friendship, and it’s one she finds enjoyable. And it’s where she volunteers. When you read this thread in it’s entirely she is being hung drawn and quartered for making a friendship! I think posters pour petrol on this,

At this stage we don’t know much at all only he has hurt feelings.

Does a great marriage mean you can make new friends or that you can’t? What is normal? What is she liking a new friendship? We don’t know.

I hate seeing people who can’t represent themselves being cut up on here. I don’t think that’s “pedantic”.

@Carpetssss

Read Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass and give it to your wife to read. See a solicitor to see how the financials would work. This is an emotional affair, with a swift and firm response from you it might end, if it doesn't don't torture yourself, leave.

This through and through.

Please get a copy of this book. This ‘friendship’ is not healthy for your marriage.

She's prioritising her "friendship" which is probably only a few months old over that of her 30 year marriage, referring to him as "her lover", going on dates with him, and told him details about her husband that he was uncomfortable with anyone else knowing. And this shite about bisexuals always get brought up on "inappropriate friendship" threads, now that's whataboutery. If you can't see that there should be boundaries in "friendships" then I pity your partner. It's funny how in same sex friendships normal level of contact is usually one or two messages a week, meeting up once a month or so if busy, but in opposite sex friendships there must be constant texting and meet ups and partner must be ok with it because we are friends and men and women can be friends you know.

I’m my opinion,

This sounds very much like an emotional affair and even so now your wife knows your feelings over her friendship with him and is STILL continuing to meet and communicate with this man.

It sounds like she is enjoying his company a little more than she should do and it’s dangerous territory.

I would give your wife an ultimatum over this. I would have a long hard conversation about this and ask her for her true feelings over him, and if something is lacking in your own relationship for her to possibility want to ‘seek’ any company elsewhere. Good luck OP, trust your instincts on this one

God this is the wrong place to ask, opposite sex friendships garner the same absolute hysteria that two glasses of wine does.

You can’t dictate your wife’s friendships, it’s controlling and not ok. No matter how many randoms tell you you can. She is an adult and can be friends with who she pleases.

If you don’t trust her address it, deal with the core issue. Do not try to decide who she’s allowed to be friends with.