Feeling so sad about DB and SIL

[porkincider]

I have 2dc who, until Covid hit last year used to see my brother and his wife at least once a month. They live just over an hour away, are absolutely brilliant with DC and DC just love them to pieces. I really enjoy their company too and we’d always have lovely days together when we saw each other. Throughout the pandemic he’s been sending them presents and daft letters and comics that he’s made for them but he never wanted to speak to them on Zoom or anything.

They’ve been trying for dc for a while and at the beginning of last year found out that sadly it’s unlikely to happen even with IVF, although they’re still going to give IVF a go as they’re entitled to one round and want to do it before SIL is over the age limit. Since finding this out they’ve been understandably heartbroken but said that they’ve actually quite benefited from lockdown as they’ve been able to spend lots of time together just the two of them.

Since restrictions have relaxed I’ve been contacting them to see when they’d like to meet up but they’ve kept putting me off. Eventually at the weekend brother tells me that he’s sorry but he’s love to see me but he can’t face seeing my dc at the moment as children upset SIL too much. I asked if I could meet up with just him (single parent, one child with ASD and absolutely no one I could leave them with) but he said that he’d find it too upsetting too.

I asked if he thinks he’ll be happy to see them in future and he said that while him and his wife have hope of a child, no matter how faint he can’t see a point where he’d be comfortable around my dc. He said he’d love to maintain the relationship with my dc, that he loves them and misses them and just loves making the comics for them that he does but he just can’t bring himself to see them. I asked him if he just found them too much like hard work or if they annoyed him or something and he burst into tears telling me I was just being cruel and hung up on me.

I don’t know what I’m supposed to do. Just wait until DC stop asking about him and let them enjoy the comics he sends them and nothing else? Wait for a decade until they’ve given up hope of having a child and then the relationship will continue?

I’d love for them to have a baby more than anything but I don’t know how to deal with it. It certainly means, for the foreseeable future at least, that I just can’t see my brother anymore as I have no one to have my kids.

Any advice? Just wait it out and wish them the best? It’s all just so sad.

They are still in the process of trying for children.

They can choose who they choose to see that is their choice.

But as a mother my children would not be expendable, by any means. I would be communicating that to the BIL. One thing for adults to get their head around, but not children.

Secondly - your stance on surrogacy would very likely change if you were infertile.

You absolutely can’t know this. Mine certainly hasn’t.

The surrogacy thing is a massive red herring. It hasn’t been suggested by either the op or the brother. It’s totally irrelevant to the thread.

It really comes across like you're making this about you. Its about them and the heartbreaking news they've just had.

Give them some time and some space.

I think they are being absolute arseholes. And I know I will be ripped to shreds for saying this on here. But I really do.

This is about cutting off a child. The child does not understand their fertility struggles. The child does not deserve to be cut off because of their feelings. They have no right to pick and choose when they get to have a relationship with the child.

I have had my own fertility struggles. I also have a nephew who I still make an effort to see and have a relationship with and foster a relationship between him and my kids. Just because my BIL and I have fallen out (BIL did something absolutely unforgivable in my eyes) does not mean that the children have to suffer. It is not my nephew's fault and he should not have to suffer.

Throughout the pandemic he’s been sending them presents and daft letters and comics that he’s made for them

What a loving thing to do - and he wants to carry on doing that because he enjoys it. Currently that’s the level at which he’s able to maintain the relationship, why can’t you be content with that?

I asked him if he just found them too much like hard work or if they annoyed him or something and he burst into tears telling me I was just being cruel and hung up on me.

I am shocked at your lack of self awareness here. Your poor brother just poured his heart out to you and you made it all about your DC. If you are this insensitive to them in person then I'm not surprised they feel like they can't see your family at the moment.

@PurpleDaisies

Secondly - your stance on surrogacy would very likely change if you were infertile.

You absolutely can’t know this. Mine certainly hasn’t.

The surrogacy thing is a massive red herring. It hasn’t been suggested by either the op or the brother. It’s totally irrelevant to the thread.

I said very likely - and good for you? It's relevant because op has said it's barbaric, and how she hopes he wouldn't do it. So it's very relevant.

@EL8888 no you don't just forget these things... stop getting so argumentative just because I have a different opinion on this to you

Is your brother prone to bursting into tears? If not, then I think it shows how much this is affecting him.

He's given you the straight answer - it's just too upsetting for them at the moment to be around your DC, when they can't have their own. Give them some time and space, and tell your DC that it's too difficult at the moment to do Zoom or whatever.

I do think that your brother could try a little harder to see them on Zoom, but if he genuinely feels too distraught, then there's not much you can do about it until he's ready!

This is about cutting off a child. The child does not understand their fertility struggles. The child does not deserve to be cut off because of their feelings. They have no right to pick and choose when they get to have a relationship with the child.

As it the op is going to say they’re not meeting because of fertility struggles.

It’s absolutely normal in a lot of families not to meet regularly, especially recently.

Yes the children might be disappointed by not being able to see a favourite uncle but there are lots of things children feel disappointed about. I’m not sure why people are leaping to the children feeling rejected unless the op is the one telling them it’s because the brother doesn’t want to see them.

I said very likely - and good for you? It's relevant because op has said it's barbaric, and how she hopes he wouldn't do it. So it's very relevant.

It’s not on the table here. The brother hasn’t asked. She doesn’t want to. The ethics of surrogacy have nothing to do with this situation.

I do think that your brother could try a little harder to see them on Zoom

It’s too painful to see them, what difference does it make if it’s in person or on Zoom? I can’t believe the lack of respect for him and his mental health, it’s just awful.

porkincider

bythemillpond I would hope that infertility wouldn’t change my brother’s moral stance

But it is isn’t just about him or you and what you morally find reprehensible about surrogacy it is about when faced with no other option what does his wife and him as a unit want.

I am struggling to see what is so morally objectionable about surrogacy in these circumstances
What are the feelings on adoption. I.e raising someone else’s child. Because if your db and his dw are desperate for a child then short of an absolute miracle these are the decisions they are going to have to make.

Adopting a child that already exists but is not wanted or not able to be cared for is totally different to asking someone else to go through all the risks of pregnancy just so you can have a child.

@Scimix

I think they are being absolute arseholes. And I know I will be ripped to shreds for saying this on here. But I really do.

This is about cutting off a child. The child does not understand their fertility struggles. The child does not deserve to be cut off because of their feelings. They have no right to pick and choose when they get to have a relationship with the child.

I have had my own fertility struggles. I also have a nephew who I still make an effort to see and have a relationship with and foster a relationship between him and my kids. Just because my BIL and I have fallen out (BIL did something absolutely unforgivable in my eyes) does not mean that the children have to suffer. It is not my nephew's fault and he should not have to suffer.

A child doesn’t need to know their struggles. All they need to be told is that their uncle can’t see them right now but he loves them enough to send them handmade comics. So yeah I hope your opinion does get ripped to shreds. It’s great you managed to maintain a relationship with your nephew but tellingly in all this you mention you have your own kids now. He is struggling and doesn’t owe her anything. She’s the parent she needs to manage their expectations.

PurpleDaisies

But you aren’t really asking and in the only circumstance I know it was someone close to the family who had offered and was only too happy to go through a pregnancy to give a family member a much wanted child if all else failed.
I don’t think anyone would ask someone who hadn’t offered in the first place and even if they did that person can always say no.

OP I understand this is hard for you, but I think you are being unreasonable. Infertility is horrendous, I can't begin to describe how much it hurts. Most things in life that you want can be achieved by planning and saving, a new car, a holiday, a designer handbag. You can see your savings growing and know you're getting closer. When you're ttc it's all or nothing. You're either pregnant or you're not. Every month your body tells you in a blunt and cruel way that you're not pregnant. Again.

I tried to have a baby for eleven long years. In that time my younger sister had three children. There were times when I couldn't bear to see her babies and in truth our relationship has probably never really recovered. But I adored her children, usually we saw them every weekend; we'd visit, or our parents would bring the children to us and those times were filled with fun, laughter and lots of noise. Whenever they left and whenever we came home our house seemed empty, quiet and sad in comparison.

Please give them time to come to terms with their grief and space to forge a relationship with your children that works for you all.

I think it’s unreasonable to withhold contact from your own close family members who have done nothing wrong. It’s not the same situation as not wanting to see a friend with their family member/ children! Sounds like you backed him into a corner on the phone, maybe they just need a big of time without a deadline. Your kids are very young, they obviously won’t understand. I’d do whatever you need to, to protect them. Would it be easier to pause the cards and comics for a while? Or reduce the frequency. Kids generally forget pretty quickly

It’s really nice when a guy priorities his wife and her feelings over his own family, it should be commended. There are far too many threads on MN from the disgruntled wife who’s DH doesn’t put her and her needs first. My own brother declines invitations if his wife doesn’t feel up to it and I never question it. Your brother sounds like a really good person even if you’re sad for yourself and your kids.

@Bythemillpond
What do you mean by “you aren’t really asking”?

Whether you accept a surrogate offer or ask for it, you are still effectively asking someone else to go through all that risk for you. They wouldn’t be doing it otherwise.

People do ask female family members and friends to be surrogates. Yes, they can say no but it’s a very awkward situation to be in and it can make relationships very difficult going forward.

This is all moot here anyway. No one has raised the topic of surrogacy until a poster brought it up.

Can you meet him when the children are in school?

Would it be easier to pause the cards and comics for a while?

How on earth would that help? It would be unspeakably cruel.

It's possible that the enjoyment of playing with nieces and nephews and thinking of little games also had an element of preparing for when it is their turn and finding out how they are when the little ones are, for instance, awkward; or go to open a cupboard door, for instance, when asked not to.....or grouchy, or whatever. Just trying out that side of their temperaments as well as really enjoying being with your children.

You have to give the couple time to adjust to their new situation, re-approach how they see interacting with young family members, and to change a little. They will, anyway, love your children as little people in their own right - as individuals - but what they are going through personally is consuming them at the moment. I can understand what they are going through and the need to look after their own mental well-being.

Your kids are not babies, and are getting older all the time, so that might make things easier in future. But I would expect it to be difficult for them to be around babies for a while, and that can be very much a part of what they are going through.

Give them time, their feelings trump yours in this scenario.

I’ll apologise to him for upsetting him by suggesting he didn’t want to see them.
You’ve got this wrong I think. It isn’t that you suggested he didn’t want to see them that upset him. It’s that you showed lack of empathy or at the very least didn’t listen to what he said and made it about yourself.

Apologise to him, but don’t make it about the fact that you suggested he didn’t want to see them. Make it about the fact you didn’t show compassion or understanding.