Was he calling me fat?

[AllRainedOut]

I posted earlier this year because I was pissed off that pretty much any man I've ever dated has commented negatively on my appearance at some point - either comments about my looks or body. Often hints or direct comments that I'm fat. I always end it within days. Never immediately because I don't want them to think they've upset me.

The general consensus was that I'm either just unlucky or I'm reading things into comments that aren't intended.

Well, it's happened again. So I wanted to run it by you lot for an impartial judgement.

I've been seeing a man I've known for around 18 months since January. He a friend of friends and we've loosely been in each other's social group for a few years but only really became friends 18 months ago.

I'm a size 12 and 5'4.

We went out on Saturday for the day. He was gigging in the evening so needed to get changed. I stayed as I was. I asked him which shirt he was changing into and said he didn't know, what did I think. So I suggested a shirt of his that he knows is my favourite.

The following conversation went like this (pretty much verbatim).

Him: "OK, I'll wear that one then as you like it "
Me: "I do. You always look nice but I really like you in that one "
Him: "OK... I feel I really ought to return the favour... oh I feel really bad saying this... That dress you're wearing really isn't the most flattering one you have"
Me: "Really? Oh well, that's tough really, it's the one I'm wearing and I don't have another with me."

Fwiw, the dress is casual - a black jersey maxi dress with a loose tie belt. I thought I looked quite nice in it and, more than that, the last time I wore it, someone asked me if I'd lost weight because it was "very slimming."

It possibly isn't the 'prettiest' dress I own, nor the most flattering but I don't think I looked so bad in it that it warranted a comment - especially as we were going out for the day/evening and would be spending it with his friends.

I didn't let it bother me as such but it was on my mind the whole day/evening 😕

This is typical of the sort of comment I get. It's rare that anyone has actually said directly, "You're fat," But these 'innocent' or helpful comments (eg "you look lovely but could stand to lose a couple of kilos") are ones I always get. Hence, I haven't had a relationship lasting more than a few months for 10 years!

If I'd asked him and he'd said that, I wouldn't mind at all because then I'd have been looking for an honest response. But I've never asked him, or anyone else, "How do I look?" because I don't see the point in inviting the negative comments.

What does it sound like to you?

As you've talked to him about things each of you don't like about the other could you not just talk about this rather than just ending it? How you said he looked nice in everything and how he 'returned the favour' by saying the dress wasn't flattering - basically just a negative without saying what he does like you in or anything positive and that it was kind of rude. See how he responds and make your decision based on that.

I have reasonable sized boobs, a relatively small waist and hips/a bum.

With a figure like this at a size 12 how on earth are you managing to find so many people making rude comments about your figure?! It sounds absolutely fine and completely unremarkable!! Not skinny enough to be mocked for that nor fat enough for that to be noteworthy, not massively disproportionate - what in earth is it that all these people are finding to comment on?!

FWIW I’m a size 18/20 (smallest ever was a 14!) and have never had anyone comment negatively on my appearance - you need to find better boyfriends and hang out somewhere with a better class of patron if pub goers at your local think you worthy of criticism.

As for your insensitive prick of a boyfriend, how on earth can he justify being critical of your dress as “returning the favour” after you complimented him?

It sounds like - far from being over sensitive to criticism - you are attracting people who are critical of you due to past experiences. I’d take that as a lesson, let this guy go and work on your self esteem for a bit so that you feel able to express yourself in your next relationship. Keeping quiet and stewing about things so as not to cause an argument is a recipe for disaster - I know this to my cost!!

It sounds like - far from being over sensitive to criticism - you are attracting people who are critical of you due to past experiences
Yes - agree and trusting your instinct is a big step to dealing with this. You don't need a relationship that makes you feel unattractive. Plus from your update it doesn't sound like you are that into him anyway

I'm a confident person but I would be pissed off at that comment.

My boyfriend doesn't notice nor care what I'm wearing (prefers me naked lol) so never comments about what I wear but tells me I look beautiful.

You've assumed he was ashamed for his friends to meet you because of your appearance but that seems to come from your own thoughts and insecurities.

He was fine with me meeting his friends. It's more that he is clearly, as others have observed, quite image focused himself. I think he fears the judgement from strangers that I'm not 'the sort of woman' he should be seen with. I think he'd like me

to be more 'feminine' but he knew before we were involved that I'm not like that. I'm far more likely to wear DMs than heels with a dress.

I think he was rude, and I wouldn't be one but impressed if a guy I was dating, who rarely complimented me felt compelled to tell me something was unflattering when I hadn't asked.

That's the issue really. I don't expect compliments. That's fine. I'd expect an honest opinion if I sought one. That's fine. But an unsolicited criticism? Not fine.

How you said he looked nice in everything and how he 'returned the favour' by saying the dress wasn't flattering - basically just a negative without saying what he does like you in or anything positive and that it was kind of rude. See how he responds and make your decision based on that.

I physically couldn't bring myself to say the words. My mother used to weaponise every perceived 'weakness' or insecurity. I feel that by bringing it up, I'd be giving him the opportunity to do the same.

With a figure like this at a size 12 how on earth are you managing to find so many people making rude comments about your figure?! It sounds absolutely fine and completely unremarkable!! Not skinny enough to be mocked for that nor fat enough for that to be noteworthy, not massively disproportionate - what in earth is it that all these people are finding to comment on?!

My bum is quite round. I get that it's in vogue nowadays but not with men my age. That is what most of the comments are focused on. On reflection, I think I took his unflattering comment to be a reference to that really.

Plus, I think they expect me to look slimmer than I do when I'm naked. I look better clothed. I've got quite a bit of cellulite. I'm just not very visually appealing when I'm naked! It was the same when I was younger and a size 8. I still had men telling i was fat then when actually I was very thin and my bones were visible.

Plus from your update it doesn't sound like you are that into him anyway

Sadly, I am. But I also have a shield of steel if I think I'm not valued.

To be fair, there have only been 3 men I've ever dated/been involved with who didn't comment directly on my body. One who liked my bum, one who used to tell me he liked his women 'bigger' and "who wants to fuck a bicycle?" and this guy who, until this comment, hadn't said anything negative.

I physically couldn't bring myself to say the words. My mother used to weaponise every perceived 'weakness' or insecurity. I feel that by bringing it up, I'd be giving him the opportunity to do the same.

So.....this is a great CBT opportunity to test if other people respond like your mum. Make a plan for how to raise it with him, write down what you expect to happen (options) and then what actually happens.
You can do this! This is how you get your mums voice out of your head!

Because, as an adult, if he weaponises it, he's dumped and you know you don't need toxic people in your life and your instincts were good.
If on the other hand (hopefully more likely) he's horrified that he hurt you and he was being clumsy, then you have evidence that your mum's narrative in your mind isn't real and that gives your subconscious the evidence it needs to learn new narratives.
Or if you still aren't convinced as he's lukewarm/not apologetic/does a "sorry but..." apology you can still finish it.

There's not really a downside here. Whereas by not raising it you are tacitly accepting your mums narrative and maintaining her power over you

What a prize twat. Red flag tbh if he doesn't have the social skills to see that's unbelievably rude it's a no go.

So.....this is a great CBT opportunity to test if other people respond like your mum. Make a plan for how to raise it with him, write down what you expect to happen (options) and then what actually happens.
You can do this! This is how you get your mums voice out of your head!

I understand this, I really do but if he did weaponise it, or dismiss me, it would destroy me and, at the moment, protecting myself emotionally is too important

Hi OP, reading through it sounds like he has bumped some untended wounds he didn't give you?

Your comment about your Mum above really jumped out at me. When you're told negative things about yourself at an early age it's really hard to shake those things off. It's also really hard to accept compliments when they're offered too as you feel suspicious of them.

Is it possible you're actually more comfortable with the discomfort of put-downs because they're what you've been brought up with?

FWIW I think your DP sounded clunky and a bit rude with his comment. I don't however think there was forethought of malice in it from what you say. I think it's worth a discussion or a chance for him to put things right. A successful relationship does involve both people in it having to make themselves vulnerable. I always marvel at people who can do it so naturally.

How is your relationship with your Mum now?

Is it possible you're actually more comfortable with the discomfort of put-downs because they're what you've been brought up with?

Yes, I think you probably have a fair point with that. As much as I hate them, they are more comfortable and familiar to hear. It's no exaggeration to say she never said anything nice to me. To the point where I can remember the only (backhanded) compliment she gave me when I was 25. It was so unexpected, it really jolted me. It might have been backhanded but it was the only 'nice' thing she ever said. It wasn't appearance based, I was always told how ugly, unattractive, fat, undesirable I was. How my body was wrong. I was mocked and laughed at for making any sort of effort with my appearance so I just stopped.

How is your relationship with your Mum now?
I haven't seen or spoken to her in 10 years because it didn't get any better and, as I started to get older (hit mid 30s), the negative comments and criticisms increased. I got to the point where i just dressed dreadfully in truly unflattering, shapeless stuff. I just didn't want anyone to notice me. I never wore make up, never did my hair and barely left the house other than to go to work because she'd destroyed my confidence to that extent. Plus there was some other more serious stuff.

When I was a young teen, she would buy me clothes that were several sizes too big for me and bras that were too small. I, obviously, looked awful but she blamed the fact I looked so bad on my body and my face being so wrong it would be impossible to find anything that looked nice on me and she would get cross with me about it. She would cut my hair really short and then mock me for looking like a boy. I didn't have long hair until I left home at 18. I believed it all until a few years ago. I had truly believed that people didn't deserve to see me. I felt embarrassed walking down the street and into shops. I worried about knocking tables/drinks over in pubs - I was a size 10 at the time so I can see now that this was probably quite disordered thinking then. But I fantasised about slicing parts of my body off for a good few years.

As a result, I found it very hard to know what I looked good in for a long time. Which is why I'm so confident I looked OK in that dress. I still struggle to a degree and rend to rotate wearing 3 or 4 dresses because I find it so difficult buying clothes. Which is why I know that that dress wasn't unflattering. Because I don't wear anything unless I've scrutinised it from all angles first.

I suppose now I feel that if I wasn't prepared to take it from her, I'll be damned if I'm going to take it from anyone else.

I think it's worth a discussion or a chance for him to put things right.

I wouldn't know how to broach it even if I was prepared to.

I can't think of anything to say other than, "You know, you really upset me the other day when you said X. If I'd asked for your opinion, I wouldn't have minded but you must have noticed that I never ask for your opinion on my appearance. I'm well aware of what I look like, I don't need to be criticised for it too."

But what if he did intend to hurt me? I wouldn't want him to know that it worked.

If he is usually lovely just try to consider this a one time thing and don't take it personally. I honestly don't think he was calling you fat!! My DH has made comments before about not liking the dress I was wearing and I was a little pissed at the time but now that we have been together so long I just know that he has certain likes/dislikes and he felt comfortable enough telling me. He hates big bold patterns or colours and that's all I used to wear. In hindsight it was super tacky ;)

I get that but he wasn't commenting on the dress. He was commenting on me in the dress. If he'd just said he didn't like it becuase it was x, y or z - fair enough.

“I'm well aware of what I look like, I don't need to be criticised for it too."

You cannot simultaneously think to say this phrase and also say you are OK in yourself with how you look.

It’s contradictory.

I would say "You know, you really upset me the other day when you said X. If I'd asked for your opinion, I wouldn't have minded but you must have noticed that I never ask for your opinion on my appearance. Criticising my outfit when you knew I couldn’t change anyway felt like you were deliberately undermining my confidence. It’s a big issue to me in relationships because of my upbringing.”

I am so, so sorry you went through that. Have you seen this website before www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com?
You might find it worth a browse. My Mum was nowhere as extreme as yours but I can recognise those feelings of defensiveness and being unwilling to be vulnerable around anyone.

About your relationship is it just the clothes conversation that's bugging you or is this the first tangible thing that he's said that you feel you can make a justified complaint about? Have there been any little comments that niggle but you feel you'd be over-sensitive to raise?

You cannot simultaneously think to say this phrase and also say you are OK in yourself with how you look.

It's hard. It is contradictory. It's contradictory in my head.

On a day to day basis, I feel OK with it nowadays. I don't agonise over my appearance, I don't feel sick with disgust at myself. I think I look OK. That is where I am now.

But when something happens to trigger it, all of that being OK with myself goes and all I can remember and feel is the sickening shame, self loathing and disgust.

So, I've been fine at work all week not thinking about it but now, because I'm thinking about it I can feel it again. If I tried to actually say something, I'm not sure I could get the words out.

Besides, I'm OK with how I look but I know the men who've commented aren't. When I'm faced with it again, I see myself how mother and they see me. Not how I see myself.

It's so overwhelming, I feel I have to walk away because I can't risk it happening again.

Your mother sounds absolutely horrific, by the way. It’s no bloody wonder you were in an abusive LTR and have struggled since with people (men/friends/whoever) commenting on your appearance.

I’ve followed along throughout this thread and I would say your insistence that you’re confident in yourself is not matched by what you actually say/relate here. It’s no doubt impossible for you to see that from the inside, though.

I still don’t know if you’re over reacting, or if this bloke just isn’t the one for you.

In terms of men commenting on your appearance- it happens to us all. Most of us get somewhat inured to it, we stop seeing it. Many of us might have had a similar experience to yours in the pub (though I wouldn’t call the people there your ‘friends’ by a long chalk). If I think back I can tell you plenty of incidents, small or larger, where someone (usually a man) has commented on my appearance negatively one way or another. I’m pretty attractive if I do say so myself. But I have things I’m self conscious about and some are linked to comments that have been made - mostly because I’m already sensitive to something like my fat ankles, or whatever, so I’ve taken that more to heart. But overall I’d need to be really thinking and looking back to recall these incidents, they’re not at the forefront of my mind like it seems to be for you. Your upbringing and the significant issues you’ve had to overcome because of it are putting a layer over everything - and you’re perhaps unconsciously choosing men who value appearance, despite your desire not to.

Blokes comment on women’s appearance constantly. It’s endemic in our society. Look at the obsession with what any female public figure looks like and the comparable treatment of men in the same positions. It’s not right but it’s reality. You have to try to express your discomfort with any comment on appearance at all to any romantic partners otherwise you will always be wondering what they think of you.

I bet you look lovely.

Massive unMumsnetty hugs Allrained, this isn't about your relationship with your partner it's about your relationship with yourself.

You've done brilliantly to get as far as you have with how you feel. There are a lot of books about what you're going through, have you done any reading? How about attachment theory?

@AllRainedOut

You cannot simultaneously think to say this phrase and also say you are OK in yourself with how you look.

It's hard. It is contradictory. It's contradictory in my head.

On a day to day basis, I feel OK with it nowadays. I don't agonise over my appearance, I don't feel sick with disgust at myself. I think I look OK. That is where I am now.

But when something happens to trigger it, all of that being OK with myself goes and all I can remember and feel is the sickening shame, self loathing and disgust.

So, I've been fine at work all week not thinking about it but now, because I'm thinking about it I can feel it again. If I tried to actually say something, I'm not sure I could get the words out.

Besides, I'm OK with how I look but I know the men who've commented aren't. When I'm faced with it again, I see myself how mother and they see me. Not how I see myself.

It's so overwhelming, I feel I have to walk away because I can't risk it happening again.

Right. So you are definitely 100% NOT okay with it all. It is a significant issue to you. I understand, and I see what you’re saying about not being able to open up in case he stomps on your trust and says something worse.

But unfortunately, as I say, in order to have a lasting relationship then you need to trust.

If you think he is definitely not worth it then step away, of course. You don’t need anyone’s permission to do that.

But if you suspect he could be a long-term significant partner you’ll need to trust sometime and that time is, I suppose, now.

Could you write him an email? And say - broadly - I know you perhaps didn’t mean how it came across but your comment on my dress was very triggering due to my upbringing and I’m considering ending the relationship. I am concerned i’m overreacting but I also don’t want to have this conversation in person because I cannot cope with hearing you justify what you meant in case it makes things worse. I’d love for you to accept I just can’t handle any even slightly negative comment on my appearance - could you do that for me? Please don’t reply with any extra comment on what you really meant. Just text me & say you got this email.

I'm OK with how I look but I know the men who've commented aren't. When I'm faced with it again, I see myself how mother and they see me.

I also just want to reiterate - you aren’t seeing yourself “how they see you”. Your abusive mother did not believe her teenage daughter was hideously ugly, fat or deformed. She said all that because she was abusive. The men who have commented negatively on you, they don’t “see you” as a deformed hideous thing. They’re also pathetic individuals taking swipes in a power game. Those men aren’t “not OK with how you look”. They’re unimportant in many ways.

I do feel for you.

Thank you, NoSquirrels your posts have mad me very tearful.

It's only been a few months since my last lot of therapy to deal.with this ended and I was feeling really positive. I think it's just blindsided me how hard this hit.

@AllRainedOut

Thank you, NoSquirrels your posts have mad me very tearful.

It's only been a few months since my last lot of therapy to deal.with this ended and I was feeling really positive. I think it's just blindsided me how hard this hit.

Could you call your therapist to talk this one through with them? Might be useful to have a one-off session?