Bastard bingo around the campfire

[helplesshopeless]

Hi everyone...creating thread number 2 (or at least, attempting to...!) Link to old thread here

If that link doesn't work, I'll be forever indebted to any of you more mumsnet savvy folks helping me out!

I'll come back in a bit to post properly, thank you all again for your help and support

he's been begging me a lot

Begging you for what? Apart from the fact that begging is very unattractive and not exactly going to make you want him, why is he begging you? He's called you a whore, he's threatened to lie about you, he's behaving like he hates you, so what the actual hell is he begging for?

You must be getting very tired of this endless cycle of bullying, self pity, begging, threatening, manipulating, anger, sadness, cajoling, spite... the list just goes on and on.

Hope you get back safely and get your sleeves rolled up. You two badly need to be away from each other so you can think straight. Now it's over he has no power or reason to keep you from going elsewhere to friends or family or to at least sit on a bench!

I’ve followed all of your posts, OP, and my suggestion is to simply ask yourself if his behaviour, manner, begging, abusive comments and threats, etc. are being made when he is trying to convince you that he can/has changed, in other words while he is making an effort to ‘woo’ you back, then what is he going to be like when he realises that he has lost you?
He is showing his true colours already by threatening things, many of which are quite pathetic, and all of which demonstrate his underlying faults have not improved, he’s just pretending that he’s seen the light and is trying to convince you and himself that he’s changing himself to be better.
I understand your heartbreak about your hopes and expectations of your daughter being brought up in a family home with both her parents. Also, that you are trying to be fair in saying he is trying his best to improve things.
But don’t you see it? His best just isn’t good enough.
He isn’t even clever enough to realise that he’s failing you now when he has this one chance and he consistently fails to keep himself under control, always coming back down to abusive threats because poor him and how he feels.
Please stop feeling guilty and keep your mind focussed on a happier life for you and your DD. Accept this won’t be with him. He cannot change.

Hello OP, wishing you a reasonable journey home. I expect you will be exhausted when you get back, and not just from travelling.

I really feel there's not much I can offer by way of advice because your situation from now on is just a matter of getting through it as best you can, and it's never a "one size fits all" situation.

You don't need any of us browbeating you into realising anything; you realised things a while ago, in a rather spectacular and life-affirming breakthrough. I hope the impetus carries you through, but please be kind to yourself if you "fall off the wagon" now and then in the midst of all the pain and confusion. It's just like dieting or giving up drink -- just get back on the wagon and keep going.

Really hoping your mum's wisdom will be a valuable source of strength and ongoing support IRL. 💕

I hope you are home & things are calm.

Hope you’ve got home safely

@helplesshopeless

I totally agree with *@Cavagirl, I find the perspectives of @FantasticButtocks and @peridito* really helpful in different ways. It's true that my husband isn't some soul-less monster who doesn't care what he says to me, and he is lashing out because he is in a great deal of pain. So it's helpful for that to be recognised here. But it's also true that I need to wise up to what he is potentially capable of, especially with the kind of things he lashes out with, so that I can be prepared to take things forward in the way that I need to. So the advice in that respect is definitely needed as well.

So sorry about your friend @Whatdirection, what a huge disappointment for you. It does seem like she's just completely lacking in the emotional intelligence and perspective that she would need to be able to support you. I hope you have some other close friends that are better able to support and will rally round you.

We're still on holiday and no plans to leave at the moment. Having a tough day with my husband, he's devastated and saying I have no idea how much pain I am causing him, and I'm taking away everything he's ever wanted and all the usual stuff about how i'm ruining everything for our daughter. This is all being said while she's napping btw, nothing in front of her. Having a definite wobble but trying to remember I don't love him and I can't force that no matter how sad he is.

You know, my ex husband used to wail and cry and send me pitiful messages late at night saying how much he loved me, I was everything he ever wanted and he didn't know how he'll go on without me in his life.

The whole time he was sleeping with various randoms, prostitutes AND had a girlfriend.

Words mean nothing. Actions mean everything.

He might genuinely be in pain, but it is the pain of losing control of you and your obedience rather than losing your love.

Dont bother to document via message. My phone has a handy voice recorder app that still functions when the screen is off. I caught my ex putting my child in danger because he was angry at me, as well as him attempting to have inappropriate conversations with me in front of the children and his blind rage where he filed for divorce and told me I would never see my children again. Very useful. Keep it recording and email any useful clips to a friend or upload them somewhere safe as you'll run out of space otherwise.

Hello everyone; hope you're all keeping well!

Sorry I've been so quiet, just had a busy few days unpacking and avoiding my husband He's been on a charm offensive the last few days; saying he wants to make me happy and he doesn't accept the divorce because he loves me. He's pretty much been chasing me around the house (!) trying to get me to cuddle him, in front of our daughter which was annoying! However, yesterday he suddenly accepted things and actually filed for divorce 😬 I'm not sure how I feel about that, pretty numb and am expecting things to hit me soon.

I was feeling quite settled on what agreement we'd come to ie 50:50 asset split (even if no maintenance) and hopeful that we'd come to a good arrangement for our daughter.

However, last night he came to me and said he'd been thinking things through and he thought it would be more fair if I started looking at what kind of house I needed, what mortgage I could afford, how much cash needed to furnish it, and that's how much he would agree to give me. He said this was much more reasonable as he'd brought way more to the marriage and had contributed more during. If I agreed to this it would apparently mean he had much more respect for me and it would be in our daughter's best interests as it would mean we could have a nicer relationship and work cooperatively going forwards. Apparently if I hadn't had an affair and he was the one leaving me it would be a different matter because I'd have the moral high ground and more bargaining power, but as it is I needed to be reasonable rather than trying to take him for as much money as I can get.

Oh, and he said mediation is pointless/too expensive and he wants me to propose arrangements for our daughter to see if we can agree before using mediation.

I'm so frustrated with him - I know I'd easily get 50% if we went to court and he knows that too, but he's using our relationship going forwards, and what that means for our daughter, as a way to force my agreement. He's also going to be much more difficult about DD arrangements if I don't agree to this.

I don't care about court for finances, that's fine, but it'll be a nightmare if this means we go to court for our daughter 😭

Am going to engage with the solicitor today and hopefully have a phone call with her before I see him again tonight (will be working at my colleague's house today).

Argh

I know I should just hand all this over to the solicitor to deal with, but as previously mentioned he wants to agree all of this privately, and if he gets a whiff of me having a solicitor he will accuse me of playing 'hardball' and absolutely ramp up his tactics and make this so much more unpleasant

Oh, HH - I've been lurking on your thread for a while and keeping everything crossed for you.

He wants to agree everything privately because he wants to sort a deal that only benefits him. Not you, not even your daughter. Ignore and keep talking to your solicitor. Don't end up in a worse position because he is blackmailing you by blaming you for the affair and threatening to make it difficult. The solicitor can deal with it all, as can the mediator. He's shown that he can't be trusted to respect your feelings or treat you fairly, so you need to keep this formal and to what the law says is appropriate given the split of care of your daughter.

He was never going to make this easy whatever you did, so get the split sorted in a way that covers you and your daughter. Short term pain for long term gain.

He is blackmailing you. He does not have the moral high ground, if he had not been such an awful husband you would not have strayed. Yes you did have an affair but that does not make him the innocent party.

He says that if you agree to his terms he will be nice to you in the future but this is bullsh*t. You know that he can't keep his word about his behaviour. If you agree to his demands he will be nice for 30 seconds and then will be back to venting his anger and pain on you.

Sadly I think you have to accept that the will always be volatile towards you . He will behave the same way whether you agree to his terms or not.

Take legal advice, get a fair deal for you and your daughter and try to zone out all his noise.
💐

Hello, I am glad you are home safely.

Firstly, the idea that the settlement (or lack of) is influenced by the cause (of the marriage breakdown) is outdated. You (and DD) have a legal entitlement to a fair settlement regardless of how or why the marriage broke down. Plus, for all he said he was accepting his behaviour and trying to change, he has now reverted to this all being your fault, which is not a fair assessment of the situation. (It also tells you he will change his argument with the wind)

Secondly, his arguments are manipulative (true to form), and using your daughter as leverage, which you recognise. You are doing the right thing talking to your solicitor.

The problem with his plan is that (or the benefit from his point of view) is that he does not have to disclose anything. I think you need to decide how important this is to you and also see what your lawyer advises.

Even if you do find a house, cost everything and he pay it (which I would be curious to know if he actually would if you cost over what he seems reasonable), it still surely needs some kind of legal involvement because you have a legal right to the marital home, so would need to sign this over to him. You cannot do that without legal advice. And your lawyer would be derelict in her duty if she did not advise you on what you are doing. So I don’t see how it is possible to do this without lawyers.

Finally, I know you want to keep this amicable (and there is merit in this not least to keep costs down), but how much do you actually trust him to keep his word? Your Achilles heel is that you don’t want to go to court over your daughter, which is reasonable (no-one in their right mind wants this), but actually, you need to have lines in the sand. At what point would you go to court? What is it important to you to protect or achieve? You don’t need to say on here but you do need to be clear in your own head. I mean, you would not accept him having full residency just to not rock the apple cart. So where are your lines in the sand? Because he won’t stay reasonable, regardless of how you try to appease him.

Morning helplesshopeless

So glad to hear you are ok.

What he is suggesting is unfair, manipulative and extremely disadvantageous to you and your daughter.

I think what you have to ask yourself is this: even if you thought his suggestion was fair (which it isn’t) do you trust him for a second to keep his side of the deal which is to be reasonable going forward in all matters?

Has there been any evidence of him being reasonable, measured and mature in a committed sustainable way throughout this whole process?

I personally think on the evidence right in front of you, on the balance of probability on how we can reasonably predict his behaviour going forward, he will continue to be difficult, controlling, selfish and manipulative however reasonable you are.

In fact unless you show some clear boundaries with him at this point, he will take it as evidence that he can talk you around.

Marital assets are shared. End of. Unless he has kept some money solely in his name that he had before marriage ( like an inheritance) then everything that has entered the marital pot is shared.

It doesn’t matter what ‘unreasonable’ behaviour either party has committed. Quite frankly you could have shagged half the street but it wouldn’t make any difference. It’s interesting how he has suddenly forgotten his awful behaviour that he seemed so committed to changing a few weeks ago.

I know this to my cost as l received a sizeable inheritance before my marriage that l used to pay off our mortgage. As a result we lived mortgage free for years before anyone else. It seemed the right thing to do. However now l have no claim on that money and everything will be split 50/50. It’s life.

Stick to your guns, let your solicitor deal with everything, do not agree to anything. He cannot stop you getting legal help or decide what is affordable or not.

Ah interesting. What has he got to hide I wonder?
Mediation actually is cheaper than lawyers as they do some initial legal legwork that the solicitors can use.
What you choose to do with respect to legal advice is your business. My solicitor took her fees when the divorce settlement came through so you don't need to find the money now. He can keep his nose out of that - you protect yourself.

It will take a while for the process to go through so what is his suggestion while you are going through the process? You live together? He moves out? Or is he suggesting you do all this financial stuff before the divorce? In which case he could turn round later and insist on 50/50 and potentially leave you in an unaffordable position.

Be very careful of what he's saying now. It benefits him not you, that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad for you but you need to work out what the benefit to him is. If he's genuinely being generous, that's probably because there's something in his finances he doesn't want you to know.

PS also get on the Child Maintenance calculator and see what he would pay if e.g. you did a 60/40 split. Start thinking about what arrangement would suit DDbest - if you do most of her care now its reasonable for that to continue. I suspect you are going to find he is liable for a large sum of maintenance.
I'm wondering if he's in fact had advice without telling you and it's put the wind up him

Glad you're OK.

Great advice above. Just to add another voice that he is now (consciously or unconsciously, it doesn't matter) simply using the exact same tactics he has used throughout your marriage to keep you in your box, in the divorce.

He knows exactly what you crave: The Calm.
He promises The Calm if only you'd do XYZ.
In the end, his impetuousness, lack of self regulation and inability to sit with any uncomfortable emotion scuppers his ability to deliver The Calm, and everything blows up.
He blames you for this.
He requires further conditions on your part to deliver The Calm - you just need to do XYZ and ABC.
And the cycle repeats.

So here it's - just accept a settlement far less than you're entitled to, and I will be Calm in return for arrangements with DD.

The thing is, all us know very well now that even if he did have honest intentions about being friendly going forward, unfortunately his personality means he simply won't be able to do it.

Again like your marriage, he's presenting you with The Hypothetical Future of a lovely straightforward divorce of which you have no evidence at all - in fact you have a lot of evidence to the contrary - can exist. So, again - that's not one of your choices, sadly. It's either agree to it all, in the hope of achieving The Calm (which you never will) and losing out on a fair settlement for both yourself and DD, versus tackling all his bluster head on. And like so many things in life, the path of least resistance in the short term is often the worst path in the long term.

Have you actually received the petition yet? On what grounds did he file?

What RL support have you got? Sorry to sound like a broken record but - have you told your Mum yet?

Delurking to say blackmailers never have the moral high ground.

You can't get the amicable split you want, he's going to be awful no matter what you do, so you might as well get the legal advice, the mediation and a fair settlement.

A very good analysis of the futility of looking for ‘The Calm’ with this man Cavagirl.

I would imagine he has had legal advice (or he may not have, my ex tried to avoid engaging a lawyer for several months), and I also wondered if he had actually filed. Regardless, helplesshopeless you need legal advice to act in your own (and DD’s) best interests. Good luck.

Glad you got home safely.

No matter what you do or say he is going to be who he is.

A nasty, selfish, controlling man who is never going to be able to control how awful he is.

He is trying to bully you to act against your daughters interests.

He will NEVER honour ANY agreement.

You have to get a grip on your insistence that he might behave decently.

It isn't going to happen.

You need mediation and all the legal advice you can get, to receive the best settlement you can for your child's future.

Go and stay with family if you will feel safer.
Get any paperwork copied today and bring anything you value to your parents home to keep safe.

Agree to nothing without full legal rep.

He was, is, and always will be, guided by complete self interest.

All great advice from other posters. Please toughen up for the sake of your daughter. This is about the life you will live with her after the split. If you take less than what you are entitled to, it takes away from her.

Also you have no guarantees how he will behave in future towards your daughter. He could use his financial position to try and punish you through her. For example buying her expensive things and not letting her take them home to yours. Or when she's older, using financial support for hobbies, higher education, housing or travel as a way to manipulate her, all to make it look like he is the generous loving parent. Don't say "he'd never do that". He's already done lots of things you swore he never would, and anger, bitterness and spite can last for years.

My father used money to get back at my mother. All it really hurt was us. We were the ones living in a series of insecure, often horrible rental properties scraping by on limited income, not going on the school trips or doing activities she couldn't afford to pay for.. He bought us nice clothes and new bikes and 'stuff' but it was all at his house, miles away. My 5 year old sister cried as she couldn't understand why her new toys couldn't go back to mum's. I was angry I couldn't ride my bike to school. But the person we took that out on was mum, until we were old enough to realise what he was doing.

I also strongly suspect he's got secret money tucked away he does not want you to know about. Don't let misplaced guilt take over here.

He should want a civil divorce for the sake of his daughter, not use her as a pawn.
I agree he has been doing his sums, if not spoken to a sol. & is suggesting this new separation of assets as it is beneficial to him.
Yes he may have put more $ in the pot, but a marriage is a joint effort, physical, emotional & financial, & the fact is you have the law saying you can have half.
He does not have the moral high ground, he deliberately treated you badly for years, your short sexless affair is probably a lesser crime.
Its very convenient he has this stick to beat you with, he doesn't have to take responsibility for the intrinsic cause. His abuse.
Please agree to nothing. Information is power, (legally you could probably stay in the marital home until dd is 18 if you have been her primary carer...)
I would not believe a word that comes out of his mouth. All his promises so far have been worthless. Remember he cannot control his vitriol, This is essentially the person you are dealing with. He lies.

Mr Nice Guy/No More Mr Nice Guy...he just flips back and forth to see what will work best on you to get what he wants doesn't he...

And as for going to court about your DD...you'd only have to mention that "willy" comment and he'd only be seeing her once a month under supervision in a contact centre...so try not to buy into his threats as they are meaningless.

Please listen to PP's about not trying to do this yourself without legal advice - I know it's hard and he has you trained to try and restore The Calm (great post @Cavagirl) at whatever cost to yourself...but you're not going to get The Calm however you play this, or if you do it'll last minutes until you suggest something else he disapproves of...

You don't have to be nasty, but you do need to be firm...and having a SHL advising you how to be firm is the way to go, and will actually help reduce your stress as you go through this .

You've got this HH xx

You will get The Calm once you are out the other side, though.

My issue, having reached The Calm on the other side, is that I realise I am anxious about doing ANYTHING which might trigger non-calm, which now extends to every area of my life, and I need to get over that to life my best life. And so I avoid any changes. It has taken me a while to realise this. But now I have realised it, I can tackle it.

Sadly, Peach in my experience it takes a lot more than something like the willy comment to trigger supervised contact, but this is a man who clearly does not wish to part with money and going to court is expensive, so i would be surprised if he went that far. He doesn’t even want to spend the money on mediation.

@helplesshopeless

The marriage has not been 'amicable', and the divorce is not going to be amicable either.

The hope for that is pure delusion on your part.

If you don't want to get completely bulldozed, you need to stop listening to him and start talking to your lawyer. Your 'adultery' is a complete irrelevance as far as finance and parenting and living arrangements. Paying heed to his thoughts on the matter is not serving you.

He has been in control of and bullying you all the way along, and he still is.

The very fact you would even contemplate trying to sort out the arrangements between you and have been discussing this, as per all his suggestions, illustrates that he is steering this, just like he has done all the way along.

So either way, he is not going to behave well. Whatever you do, he will continue being himself. So you can either have him as a horrible husband or as a horrible ex husband.

If you prefer the second option, but would like a nice life with your daughter, stop trying to placate him and thinking you might be able to bring out the best in him. It is not going to happen.

Hopefully you will get a more realistic picture once you've spoken to your solicitor.

I do hope you can find the strength and the bravery you need to resist allowing him to be completely in charge of your split like he has been in your marriage.

His divorce = unequal split of assets plus nasty controlling abusive behaviour.

Your divorce = fair split of assets plus nasty controlling abusive behaviour.

So 2 choices, I know which one I would choose.

There is no path that will be calm and reasonable, he will make it as difficult as possible.

Please don't agree to anything without proper, professional advice. Please read the excellent advice given above, by various posters. Read almost any thread in Relationships and you will see that is a common tactic where one person thinks they can decide the terms, financially. Strangely it always benefits them, funny, that. He is abusing you, and continues to do so.