Bastard bingo around the campfire

[helplesshopeless]

Hi everyone...creating thread number 2 (or at least, attempting to...!) Link to old thread here

If that link doesn't work, I'll be forever indebted to any of you more mumsnet savvy folks helping me out!

I'll come back in a bit to post properly, thank you all again for your help and support

peridito & fantasticbuttocks you can both be right at the same time I think - STBexH (hurrah!) is certainly not a happy individual to be behaving the way he is. And so you can be empathetic to that fact while still finding his behaviour utterly reprehensible and the way that he deals with his unhappiness and needs absolutely vile. But in the end, does it matter, the whys of the roots of his behaviour? The effect is still the same. It's not a thread about him, in the end.
And I think it is helpful to have slightly differing perspectives on here
Hope today is a better day for you OP.

@Whatdirection is right, unless he files for divorce immediately, then take it at a pace you're comfortable with - separation will do for now as it'll give you the headspace he's been denying you, so you can start to feel what you really feel without having to react to his feelings all the time.

It sounds like you have a lawyer but make sure they are a SHL who knows what they're doing re family law...you need the very best advice now so you can decide what to do, when you're ready to do it; even if you're "just" separating for now, it will help you feel calmer (relatively speaking) knowing that you've taken good advice for what's to come.

Keep going love, you're doing really, really well

He has always behaved badly, this is why you are where you are now.
He then says it's your fault & he lashes out.
Then he says you havn't given him enough time to change
Then he threatens to ruin your reputation, & he would prefer you dead.
& tell your DD you like looking at other mens willys, I am horrified by this, I am actually speechless, How dare he say that to a 3 year old. Who will she repeat it to ? The school teacher? the social assistant?
it is UNFORGIVABLE, to introduce this image to a 3 year old's mind

The fact is, he is a person who likes to blame You, like a churlish child.
He lashes out, he is unkind, he is out of control, & now he is emotionally dangerous to your DD

Menacing then claims its not his fault.
It IS his fucking fault, it has always been his incapability to contain his frustration & anger that has bought you to this situation,
Luckily for you (haha) this has not manifested itself physically, if not you would be black & blue
& yes perdito, he may be hurting, but he is the one orchestrating this whole tragedy. At some point he has to be accountable.

I hope you can keep his venom under control. I would be telling him that if he EVER spawns more sexual innuendos to your 3 year old, he can rely on YOU ruining more than just HIS reputation.

@Cavagirl

peridito & fantasticbuttocks you can both be right at the same time I think - STBexH (hurrah!) is certainly not a happy individual to be behaving the way he is. And so you can be empathetic to that fact while still finding his behaviour utterly reprehensible and the way that he deals with his unhappiness and needs absolutely vile. But in the end, does it matter, the whys of the roots of his behaviour? The effect is still the same. It's not a thread about him, in the end. And I think it is helpful to have slightly differing perspectives on here Hope today is a better day for you OP.

Thanks, and I agree that all our perspectives might be helpful.

@helplesshopeless

For goodness' sake. He was just changing in front of our daughter and she said 'I can see your willy!' And he actually said to her 'oh mummy isn't allowed to see it, she wants someone else's willy.'

If that doesn't convince you that you need him out of your life ASAP, nothing will.

I totally agree with @Cavagirl, I find the perspectives of @FantasticButtocks and @peridito really helpful in different ways. It's true that my husband isn't some soul-less monster who doesn't care what he says to me, and he is lashing out because he is in a great deal of pain. So it's helpful for that to be recognised here. But it's also true that I need to wise up to what he is potentially capable of, especially with the kind of things he lashes out with, so that I can be prepared to take things forward in the way that I need to. So the advice in that respect is definitely needed as well.

So sorry about your friend @Whatdirection, what a huge disappointment for you. It does seem like she's just completely lacking in the emotional intelligence and perspective that she would need to be able to support you. I hope you have some other close friends that are better able to support and will rally round you.

We're still on holiday and no plans to leave at the moment. Having a tough day with my husband, he's devastated and saying I have no idea how much pain I am causing him, and I'm taking away everything he's ever wanted and all the usual stuff about how i'm ruining everything for our daughter. This is all being said while she's napping btw, nothing in front of her. Having a definite wobble but trying to remember I don't love him and I can't force that no matter how sad he is.

Having a definite wobble but trying to remember I don't love him and I can't force that no matter how sad he is.

Ahhhh I'm so sorry, it is SO hard.

Think of it in terms of you having to be strong for both of you. Staying with him would do him no good in the long run.

I also think that if you stay with him, you will be listening to that same refrain forever more about all the things YOU did wrong, and if ONLY you had told him how shit HIS behaviour was...rinse and repeat.

Mind yourself.

"I have no idea how much pain I am causing him, and I'm taking away everything he's ever wanted"

or He has no idea how much pain he caused you, & he destroyed everything you ever wanted

& If you stay with him..... you will be flailing about in this stinking morasse for life

@Mix56

"I have no idea how much pain I am causing him, and I'm taking away everything he's ever wanted" or He has no idea how much pain he caused you, & he destroyed everything you ever wanted

Ain't this the truth. You didn't want this, you wanted a long and happy marriage with someone who respects you and is kind. He ruined that by being unwilling to change his behaviour or just - you know - be halfway decent. It's YOUR tragedy too.

Just checking @helplesshopeless when you say "no plans to leave" - would you rather leave, just from your perspective. Like if I came up to you now and said "I have a ticket for tonight and a ticket for [planned leaving date], which one would you like?" what would you say?

(you don't HAVE to stay and listen to him, you can go out, walk off, take your daughter to the zoo - anything)

I think the thing is though, if I stayed with him and was able to show him love, he'd be able to continue working on himself and we'd get to a place where he treated me well. However the sticking point for me is that I don't love him so he isn't able to get to that point. And so it's never going to work. It helps me to imagine the best case scenario in relation to his behaviour because, even though maybe the best case would never materialise, I know that even then, it wouldn't be right for me. Otherwise, I'm always doubting myself and wondering whether things could have got better.

@FoxgloveSummers I'm happy to stay. Our daughter is having an absolute blast and it's lovely to see, just really precious.

In other news the solicitor got back to me and said it would make absolutely no difference from a childcare arrangement perspective if he bought me out of the house vs us both buying somewhere new. So that's really good to know!

I have a daft qu though, what does SHL stand for?! Google is giving me nothing!!

@Alcemeg I meant to say before, thank you for your absolutely lovely offer to come and find you in your own sunny location! You are so so kind. We're elsewhere but it's so lovely to know there's people like you dotted around the world ready to step in to help!

@helplesshopeless I think you are doing so well to stick to your guns. As you say, you have to remember you just don't love him, and trying to magic up the required feelings or ploughing on regardless will wear you down if you stay with him. I have to remember this too. No matter how much he blames you or puts on his sad face, remember that you are not randomly choosing this, it is a reaction to how you have been treated by him. I've been over this million times in my head thinking oh no I'm being awful to him, feeling guilty about my own feelings, but I went into this relationship hoping for the best and for happiness, not aiming for the outcome I find myself with now. My DH seems to think I've woken up one day determined to be a misery face, but no!!! I've been worn down for too long and now I'm finally making my feelings known, and he doesn't like it. This is why your DH is lashing out at you. He probably thinks he's the perfect husband or perfect father, and cannot see why you're 'acting' like this. If my DH suddenly did turn into husband/father of the year, it still wouldn't change how I feel. The love is gone, and I do so want love in my life. Do I have to live forever without love to keep him happy? I see so much in your posts that I recognise. Keep strong and move forward mate. We're all behind you xx

It stands for Shit Hot Lawyer I believe @helplesshopeless

Now to read the rest of your post...

Shit Hot Lawyer

I'm really glad your daughter is having a great time, and that you're taking such evident joy in seeing her happy

Great post @19Bears

Re: the "SHL" (shit hot lawyer) can I also suggest you urgently start seeing a counsellor - maybe a different one? And reach out to your mum for support. You need someone to remind you that you are your own boss. You make your own decisions. It is not up to H whether you get a mediator, what you personally decide to do about the house, what you personally ask for in terms of residency/custody/whatever it's called, what you personally deserve in this divorce. He will have views diametrically opposed to the best for you, for obvious reasons (1. it'll benefit him 2. he wants you punished). Please don't treat divorce things like an "us" decision between you and him. They're actually an "us" decision about you and your daughter. If he wears you down that you only deserve to live in a rat filled garret somewhere, get no maintenance and be flogged through the streets thrice a day as a Renowned Hussy etc etc - just remember that it's not just about how you should be living, but how your daughter (who will spend most of her time living with you) will be living. What she will be able to eat, wear and do. Where she can afford to go. Whether she has her own room. etc.

If he wants to make you poor, deprived and sorry - he wants to make her poor, deprived and sorry too. And she's a little child. Be strong for both of you, especially for her.

[quote 19Bears]**@helplesshopeless* I think you are doing so well to stick to your guns. As you say, you have to remember you just don't love him, and trying to magic up the required feelings or ploughing on regardless will wear you down if you stay with him. I have to remember this too. No matter how much he blames you or puts on his sad face, remember that you are not randomly choosing this, it is a reaction to how you have been treated by him. I've been over this million times in my head thinking oh no I'm being awful to him, feeling guilty about my own feelings, but I went into this relationship hoping for the best and for happiness, not aiming for the outcome I find myself with now. My DH seems to think I've woken up one day determined to be a misery face, but no!!! I've been worn down for too long and now I'm finally making my feelings known, and he doesn't like it. This is why your DH is lashing out at you. He probably thinks he's the perfect husband or perfect father, and cannot see why you're 'acting' like this. If my DH suddenly did* turn into husband/father of the year, it still wouldn't change how I feel. The love is gone, and I do so want love in my life. Do I have to live forever without love to keep him happy? I see so much in your posts that I recognise. Keep strong and move forward mate. We're all behind you xx[/quote]
This. So true, story of my life. Thank you @19Bears.

Remember that this man, who knows you don't love him, is still quite happy to try to persuade you have sex with him, stay married to him, live with him for the rest of your life.

even though he knows you don't love him

What kind of man, who claims he loves you, would want to do that?

@SpringCrocus this is so right. How can someone who claims to love you be content to keep you trapped in your unhappy state for the rest of your life??? I could not do this to someone, anyone, never mind someone I claimed to love. I could not. Why would you want to???? My DH said recently, "I don't care if you're not happy." Now I don't know if he meant it or if he was lashing out, but either way, he continues to ignore the fact I have cried in front of him, telling him there is a massive part of me missing. I need love, not to be someone's mother. I'm quite happy to be a mother to my children, not happy to be a mother to a grown man who should want me, not need me. How can any man want his wife to be unhappy??? I just don't understand.
Love to you, @loveyourself2020 I think it's so common, and so sad. I long to be happy, and I can't imagine achieving it :( x

I think part of his nasty and fury towards her is that she has had the gall to call it a day on his appalling treatment of her.
He never expected her to say enough, much less have a relationship with someone else.

He is furious with himself too that he overplayed his hand and has lost control of her and his marriage.

He is a very very controlling man.

I think the thing is though, if I stayed with him and was able to show him love, he'd be able to continue working on himself and we'd get to a place where he treated me well

No no no no no
You treated him well for years and he was horrible to you. He killed your love.
You've been trying to find a way through this for months and he hasn't given you the space and support you needed to find that way. He killed your marriage.
There is nothing you've said that gives any indication at all that he would change, or even that he has the capacity to change. This is not your fault. He should've been nicer to his wife

Quentin.. Exactly... all this about trying to change, needing to be warned....
He shoulx have been loving $ kind & we would not bd here now.
Spilt milk Dude

Sorry no glasses

His tears are all about him. He does it to manipulate you, make you feel sorry for him, and make it difficult for you to address his appalling behaviour yesterday. What he's done to you is classic DARVO, an emotionally abusive tactic:

He started by Defending what he did, and Arguing, then he Reversed Victim Order (with the tears etc) so that now you have to look after him and his feelings.

This is why you feel so confused, and it's why you couldn't stand up to him about wanting to end the marriage.

Watch for him entering the hoovering stage, where he's lovely again and 'trying' so that you think everything could end up being ok..

Also watch out for him making manipulative comments about how happy dd is, so that he can cast you in the villain role and make it all your fault, rather than about how he behaves.

It's also really worth reading up about the drama triangle, as he seems to use that with you.

It helps me to imagine the best case scenario in relation to his behaviour because, even though maybe the best case would never materialise, I know that even then, it wouldn't be right for me
I think this is the clarity you've been seeking for such a long time OP, so I'm very happy for you that you've reached it.
However - as much as I think this narrative is helpful for you at this moment, and as much as I equally think it doesn't matter what other people think and what narrative your husband has - I think for you his narrative about the split does matter, at least in the short term.
So when he's devastated and saying I have no idea how much pain I am causing him, and I'm taking away everything he's ever wanted the answer is not "I've fallen out of love with you", the answer is "you have destroyed all hope of our marriage ever succeeding through your relentless abusive behaviour, which you've been unable to rein in even when it's clear our marriage has been at stake. That is why we are over".
Objectively it doesn't matter a hoot why he believes his marriage is over - and of course you know he will have to peddle the storyline that you're divorcing because you're a whore who wants someone else's willy () etc etc. He can't possibly countenance the idea that he had his chances, over and over, and he blew it.
But for your own sanity, when describing this to others and - with him - for the record, ahead of divorce proceedings - have your narrative ready.
And remember HE has destroyed his marriage. Remember when you were willing to sacrifice your own happiness to keep your marriage together and he couldn't even let you sit on a bench down the road to think, he couldn't even not read your work notebook, he couldn't even give you space without pestering for sex. His entire lack of self regulation is what's led to this. It's very sad. But the only person to blame here is himself.
Hope you are OK tonight. Please keep yourself safe.x