Bastard bingo around the campfire

[helplesshopeless]

Hi everyone...creating thread number 2 (or at least, attempting to...!) Link to old thread here

If that link doesn't work, I'll be forever indebted to any of you more mumsnet savvy folks helping me out!

I'll come back in a bit to post properly, thank you all again for your help and support

Ahh, @loveyourself2020, lovely to hear from you! So glad to hear your children are doing ok. But less glad that you are still stuck sleeping on that floor I will be keeping my fingers crossed for you that your ex does get that apartment. Things will start to feel much lighter and more bearable once you are comfortable in your own home. One step at a time, just keep moving forwards

@Alcemeg you're absolutely right that he will be hoping that I see sense in seeing what our family has to offer through having a lovely holiday together. And there is a danger that I will fall into that trap (although it seems unkind to term it a 'trap!') but I really do feel like I've made my peace that I don't and won't ever love him, however much I enjoy and value us all spending time together. I do still feel like I'm being terribly selfish for doing this to our daughter, but the alternative is 'faking it' forever and I can't do that either. What feels like a dagger to my heart (sorry, that sounds very dramatic) is when she's exclaiming 'mummy and daddy!' when she's showing us something, and knowing she won't be saying that for much longer

My husband was slamming around a bit last night which made me nervous, I asked him how he was and said he seemed angry, which I think made him reel himself in a bit as he could see I was anxious. He said he wasn't angry, just fed up. I really hope he can stay calm for the next few weeks as I'm not sure I can manage separation discussions if he's in an angry zone.

I really do feel like I've made my peace that I don't and won't ever love him, however much I enjoy and value us all spending time together. I do still feel like I'm being terribly selfish for doing this to our daughter, but the alternative is 'faking it' forever and I can't do that either.
Wow OP, you sound like you have the clarity you've been seeking.

What feels like a dagger to my heart (sorry, that sounds very dramatic) is when she's exclaiming 'mummy and daddy!' when she's showing us something, and knowing she won't be saying that for much longer.
No, no, it's not dramatic, it really is like a dagger to your heart. It's going to be painful, no two ways about that, unfortunately

I do hope Derek manages to find a way of expressing being "fed up" that doesn't involve "slamming around." The thing about slamming around is that it's for someone else's benefit, isn't it? All noisily externalised. I worry a bit that he is losing sight of the incentives for continued "good behaviour." I really hope that your holiday turns out the way you would like, and becomes a memory to cherish. But I'd echo PP's suggestions that, just in case, a backup Plan B (somewhere to escape to if things turn impossible) is a good idea.

I get the feeling that the holiday, for you, is a way of showing Derek how much you've made your mind up. That however alluring the prospect he keeps presenting, the promise of a solid family unit sharing a happy future together, you are making a different choice.

You are choosing reality over illusion.

But to really believe and accept the choice you're making, maybe you both need to see you resisting the lure of that illusion, even at its most intense.

I hope that when you demonstrate this, he can find it within himself to respect your choice.

Gosh though OP, do you ever read back to your early posts? You've come such a long way since then, whole galaxies.

Gosh OP, you've sounded like a different person at times in your most recent posts. Perhaps that's because it's fully your voice coming through now, not your voice laced with his narrative that you've internalised. A great sign you're moving forward, either way.

I do still feel like I'm being terribly selfish for doing this to our daughter
This is totally understandable but please do bear in mind how many people on this thread have said from their own experience how damaging to their childhood/children it has been to live with an unhealthy relationship model from their parents. In leaving you are actually setting your daughter the best example - both in the long term when she asks what happened, about having standards and expectations and when they aren't met you don't put up with less, but (more importantly in my view) she won't grow up with seeing her mum being abused, and have that modelled to her as normal, because you stayed.

It's totally understandable that you will grieve for the vision you had of the family life, for yourself and for her, but unfortunately and through no fault of your own that's not an option for either of you. So you are making the best choice for her as well as yourself, given your available options.

I really do hope you have a peaceful holiday. Would also add my voice to those suggesting you think about what a successful holiday would realistically look like to you, what's within your control to enable that, and what's your plan B if things really do go awry. Good luck

Lol @Alcemeg looks like we had the same thought there!!

@Cavagirl

Lol *@Alcemeg* looks like we had the same thought there!!

Spooky huh! 😍

Very good point about slamming around, its sending you a message. He always has been sending you messages, his glaring & anger when he is/was displeased.
So it goes on, fortunately you see it as bullying manipulation now
"Look at me, something is wrong, something needs fixing, you are required to hover & mend the problem.
He wouldnt do it if you weren't there, it would be pointless.

It's totally understandable that you will grieve for the vision you had of the family life, for yourself and for her, but unfortunately and through no fault of your own that's not an option for either of you. So you are making the best choice for her as well as yourself, given your available options

Absolutely agree with this, when thinking logically. I suppose what I've had to wrap my head around is that, in the best case scenario here, my husband treats me kindly and respectfully going forwards (yes, I know, but it's best case scenario ) and I grow to love him. In leaving I'm not giving that a chance to come to fruition and so I'm denying my daughter that possibility of having two parents that are in a happy relationship. But I've concluded that even if I did stay and he permanently changed for the better, I won't love him, and I don't think that can end well for any of us.

I do hope Derek manages to find a way of expressing being "fed up" that doesn't involve "slamming around." The thing about slamming around is that it's for someone else's benefit, isn't it? All noisily externalised.

True, I've never thought about it like that before! I just assumed it was how he expressed himself when feeling irritated, but yeah @Mix56 I'm not sure if he'd do it as much if there was no one around to hear it (or maybe he would...!).

I get the feeling that the holiday, for you, is a way of showing Derek how much you've made your mind up. That however alluring the prospect he keeps presenting, the promise of a solid family unit sharing a happy future together, you are making a different choice.

That's a really interesting way to look at it, and yes I think there is an element of that. Also to demonstrate and almost prove to myself that I've tried everything and even when we're at our best, I still won't or can't love him.

I am looking forward to the holiday but I also want to fast forward through it and know what the next few months are going to look like. In terms of a plan b, I guess if it all goes wrong my husband can leave early...I really can't see him making things unpleasant in front of our daughter, he is as keen for her to have a great time as I am...so fingers crossed!

URGH - I've just nipped out to the shops and my husband took the opportunity to look through my work notepad. He found and took a photo of some doodles I'd made while working trying to think of some sort of split of time for our daughter between me and him. He's taken a photo and sent me a snarky message about it. I am so so cross with him!! Posting here to rant about it to stop myself escalating it with him

Absolutely you should be angry ,but vent here not at him . That is terrible ,an invasion of your privacy and shows you just how much he hasn't changed .

No trust ,no respect ,checking up on you. You are allowed to be thinking about how the future might impact on your daughter and what dividing time might look like .It's not a crime! He is NOT to use this as a weapon against you .

The disrespect, the invasion of privacy and YET AGAIN the invasion of your thoughts even when you are away from him

He is an abusive, coercive, controlling shit. I hate him.

Well he just keeps on building that relationship coffin doesn't he!

I am so angry. He's just come to talk to me about it (despite me saying I was too angry to talk to him!) and he thinks I don't have a right to be angry or to any privacy given what I've done, and so I am overreacting. He's also given me his own proposal of time split with our daughter which involves a full working week with him every other week and says he'll take me to court I am just so so cross!!

For goodness sake- just leave him. Exactly how bad does he have to be?
Can't believe you can bear to be round this reptile. He shows you every day what a shit he is.
He may show some good points but would you eat a sandwich if it had even 10% shit in it?
As for going on holiday with him- the mind boggles

@helplesshopeless

I am so angry. He's just come to talk to me about it (despite me saying I was too angry to talk to him!) and he thinks I don't have a right to be angry or to any privacy given what I've done, and so I am overreacting. He's also given me his own proposal of time split with our daughter which involves a full working week with him every other week and says he'll take me to court I am just so so cross!!

At last! Now take that anger, gather your daughter and your stuff and leave.

Oh OP... so sorry.

You should really be cataloguing things that happen.* I don't know how it all works, but would be surprised if the court gave in fully to his demands. This thread might actually be a useful historical document.

*Maybe that's what he's doing? don't know. ugh.

Also, sorry, but I can't help thinking this is not the first time he's been through your stuff while you're out. It just might be the first time he's challenged you on some of it.

@Alcemeg yes, he's done it twice before and found some of my notes I'd made for my individual therapy. You'd think I'd have learnt and would start to hide things better!

Which is why on at least 2 occasions I gave told you to change your passwords.
Of course you have given thought to how you would split time for dd.
He too was filling out divorce forms.
Tell him to fuck off, & screw his holiday, devious gaslighting dick

Sorry OP If this is a bit brutal but please reflect on what you wrote only days ago about this exact topic:

We also had a good discussion last night around my fears for how he'd behave if we split (which makes me scared to leave but also makes me think I don't want to be with someone like that!). He completely acknowledged why I might feel vulnerable to what he could say/do, and was clear about absolutely not wanting to hurt or scare me with the things he's said in the heat of the moment - he's committed to being fair and civil and making sure our daughter gets the absolute best, if we do split up.

We started having a discussion around what arrangements may look like in the interim if we separate and before the house is sold, and again that was a pretty reasonable conversation. So I'm feeling hopefully that we might manage this in a grown up way. But I know things can change quickly!!

He just can't do it. The moment he feels out of control, anxious, or unpleasantly surprised he is incapable of behaving differently, despite the endless promises, your (very generous) assumption that he'll behave perfectly from now onwards, all the lovely words - in the end, as you said yourself, the wankiness will leak out.

He's not a good man. And you're consistently expecting him to behave like one because you so want him to be. But, deep down, this is who he is.

Please really think about whether this holiday is a good idea. Not the fantasy holiday, the real holiday. Because he's just told you what he thinks - you don't have any right to privacy, and he's taking you to court.

That's who he is.

[quote helplesshopeless]@Alcemeg yes, he's done it twice before and found some of my notes I'd made for my individual therapy. You'd think I'd have learnt and would start to hide things better! [/quote]
You think he'd have learnt not to be such a cheeky bastard!

He won’t even allow you any private thoughts will he? He’s trying to get inside your mind by taking your therapy notes, invading your privacy in the shower while you are naked.

Honestly I know you want to give your daughter a lovely holiday but please don’t go. He will bully and coerce you and won’t give you a moment to think. You can always have a holiday with her in the future.

Actually if I were you I’d file for divorce first before he can. If it goes to court, so be it. He’s utterly vile.

I think ,in practice ,it's very hard "to pack your bags and leave now" .

I think in some ways it's crystalised things ,you are both thinking along the same lines of splitting up .

We're all different and I know there is a lobby on here for you to bypass the holiday .If it were me I'd wait for him to simmer down ,which I'm sure he will ,and then reassess the holiday .The three of you may still be able to have a week away on terms which are amicable and civil for your daughter's sake .

I'm not sure you'd ever forgive yourself for not trying the holiday just to test everything out. It seems like your final hurdle and you don't want to skip it.

Wait he will come back smarmy & apologizing fir violating your privacy again, after saying he will control his temper again.
Its a bullshit, he lies, he gaslights, he threatens & moves the goal posts.