Bastard bingo around the campfire

[helplesshopeless]

Hi everyone...creating thread number 2 (or at least, attempting to...!) Link to old thread here

If that link doesn't work, I'll be forever indebted to any of you more mumsnet savvy folks helping me out!

I'll come back in a bit to post properly, thank you all again for your help and support

It must have been so cathartic to spend time being Yourself with gf.
You know? Free, no pressure, no 2nd guessing, analyzing, doubting. Well basically away from him.
Who else makes you feel like a lesser person ?
He stropped before you left & was still sulking when you returned, & this is him wanting you to be happy, & on his best behaviour.
I agree him saying he will allow encourage you to see your friends/hobbies etc, is diametrically opposite to what he allows in reality.
Its all smoke & mirrors isn't it?

Yes, he’s fine with however you feel as long as your behaviour suits him, (ie he wants you to force yourself to shag him even through he knows you don’t want to) but simultaneously he wants you to overlook his horrible behaviour because of how he feels when he behaves that way, because it “comes from a place of love”. He has one standard for you and the opposite one for himself.

“Ignore my behaviour because my feelings are what counts.”
And
“Ignore your feelings and give me what I want.”

It’s all about him.

But no matter how clear it is to you when you’re alone and to all of us reading, he will never, ever, agree with you on what the issues are.

I think a big part of the problem is that the clarity you need before you can act, won’t be available to you until you get away from him. He knows very well that given some peaceful thinking time, you will leave him. That’s why he’s so keen to book another holiday, so he can get in your head for a solid week and give you no peace to think.

Good luck. I know how powerful that urge to fix things is and how it can keep you stuck. Could you maybe turn that urge towards yourself instead of him? Focus on figuring out what you need to feel whole and happy, instead of on what he needs?

@reader12

But no matter how clear it is to you when you’re alone and to all of us reading, he will never, ever, agree with you on what the issues are.

I think a big part of the problem is that the clarity you need before you can act, won’t be available to you until you get away from him. He knows very well that given some peaceful thinking time, you will leave him. That’s why he’s so keen to book another holiday, so he can get in your head for a solid week and give you no peace to think.

Good luck. I know how powerful that urge to fix things is and how it can keep you stuck. Could you maybe turn that urge towards yourself instead of him? Focus on figuring out what you need to feel whole and happy, instead of on what he needs?

Emphatically agree with this, especially "I think a big part of the problem is that the clarity you need before you can act, won’t be available to you until you get away from him" and "Could you maybe turn that urge towards yourself instead of him?" The trouble is that while he's around, with his unhappiness that OP is hardwired to try and fix, a healthy shift in focus is rather difficult.

She can tell I've changed over the years in how I think about things as a result of him making me anxious, and she expects to see a positive change in me once we're apart.
OP, this is more like it. Real feedback from someone who can see what's happening.
Just think how bad it is for her to actually say that to you. Consider how certain you'd have to be to give similar advice to a married friend.

The reason you won't achieve clarity until you're well away from him is precisely this. He makes you anxious (chiefly for his welfare), and that actually does change the way you think about things. This is why his feelings trump yours, even though despite all your confusion your actual feelings have been very clear all along: You don't love him. You don't trust him. You have lost an awful lot of respect for him.

The damage he has done over the years is irretrievable, yet from the very beginning your entire focus has been on the hope that love might come back. Why? Because that's what he wants, and you hate to disappoint him. And as your friend knows, this is only going to get worse, not better, over time. Your clarity is not going to get clearer. Your clarity is going to get more and more blurred. (This is why I described it as a kind of vampire situation.)

I've sunk back into self doubt now! I wish he was consistent in his behaviour
You're doing it again, focusing on his behaviour instead of his personality. Ted Bundy could be very charming. Fred West disarmed the police officers who dealt with him by making them laugh. I'm sure Hitler could be lovely to Eva Braun. Probably for whole days on end!

I'm not saying Derek is a psychopath, these are extreme examples. But he most certainly is a bit of a wanker, and that's not going to change, because he lacks maturity. In fact his best chance of ever acquiring any is through a trauma like divorce. Life can be very paradoxical at times.

You don't love or trust him. For very, very, very blindingly fucking obvious good reasons that we all understand. So far, even on his best behaviour, he goes into a strop now and then and apologises later. But imagine if he didn't! Imagine if through some miracle, he maintained what you call "good behaviour" for a whole YEAR. (Yes, I know, impossible; I'm just hypothesising here.) I am willing to bet that at the end of that year, you still wouldn't love or trust him. Because you know who he is. Essentially, he's a wanker, and that's always going to (as you put it) "leak out" of him at some point.

You're talking about it all as though he has to score on some kind of test, and win or fail. This is what's confusing you because every day he scores credit points and his % goes up. Then he fucks it all up again.

But it's not a test. He's already failed. You know what? His "bad behaviours" aren't actually a problem. The proof is that you can put up with them again and again, hardly even registering them when they do happen. The problem is his personality. Derek is a wanker. He could curb his natural behaviour for as long as he can, but you'd still know that he's a wanker. And you wish it wasn't so, and you wish you could do something about it, but you can't.

I type a bit fast for my own good sometimes. Sorry, that was a bit of a pulpit moment 🤣

It is back to the disconnect between how you want things to be (and the emotive ideal of happy families he also uses as leverage ‘the place of love’) and the reality of how things are (the actual behaviour). In short, there is a conversation at a discursive level which you also buy into of how your family could or should be, and then there is the actuality of what is happening, which is a set of controlling and manipulative behaviours to keep your head spinning. He is very good at using the discursive framing of happy families to get you to doubt your assessment of the situation. So when you question or challenge the controlling or manipulative behaviours, what you get back is the discursive context of idealised family which is used as leverage to keep you in your place (along with a dose of accusation that you are the one causing the fractures in the idealised family). This is not an argument you can win, because you agree with part of it (the idealised family framework of how things should be) and you will never get his agreement that his behaviour is why things have broken down.

You are not ever going to get him to say, yes, I realise I have behaved badly, I understand why you want to go and I am sorry, I wish you well and I will do everything I can to make sure that we function well as co-parents. Because if he was able to say that, then you would not be in the position of even wanting to separate in the first place. He would have been the kind of reasonable husband you would want to keep hold of!

Not sure if that makes sense. The thing is even if he did say that, I am not sure even then you would leave, because you don’t know for sure that is what you want to do.

You are not ever going to get him to say, yes, I realise I have behaved badly, I understand why you want to go and I am sorry, I wish you well and I will do everything I can to make sure that we function well as co-parents. Because if he was able to say that, then you would not be in the position of even wanting to separate in the first place. He would have been the kind of reasonable husband you would want to keep hold of!
Spot on

No no no! He honestly doesn't care! He is faking the compassion and caring to reel you back in, he picked YOU because YOU are the perfect victim for HIM. He picked someone who trusts easily, who doesn't like to give up on things, who sees the best in everyone and is desperate to be loved.

I know this because it is exactly what has happened to me and the other people on this thread. We were all picked as the perfect victims for their specific brand of abuse.

He hasn't changed, he cannot change or he would have done already.

Do you want to be with someone who finds it such a struggle to be civil to you, let alone loving?

Great posts @Alcemeg @KatySun

How are you today HH?

Hi everyone!

I'm going to apologise in advance as I feel like my brain is completely devoid of any thinking power so I'm not going to address each point like I'd normally try to do, but so many great and helpful posts, thank you as always for all of your support I can't believe you've all stuck with me for this long! ❤️

Things are ok here. I feel like I'm clear when I'm not with him and can't see him looking sad, that I know I don't love him and there's nothing more I can do. I was feeling very anxious the last few days because I just wasn't comfortable being around him (possibly because I know that hard conversations are coming up...) and he's picked up on that. He asked me what was wrong and I've tried to explain that I'm feeling anxious and am struggling generally with any hope for our situation. He's actually been quite good in discussing this with me...he's sad and I want to make things better for him, but I'm completely out of any ability to put on any front anymore.

It clicked with him earlier (and me) that as well as not loving him, I don't 'fancy' him. For me that wasn't much of a revelation as it depends on an emotional connection for me, but for him it's purely a physical thing and so it was hard for him to hear (just to batter his self esteem even further!). Is it normal to actively fancy your partner after 10 years?! That actually isn't part of the issue for me really, but maybe that's just because I'm used to the lack of connection.

We've agreed we'll make the most of the holiday regardless of what's happening with us, we're both so excited to see our daughter enjoying herself at the beach. He's committed to staying civil and calm while we're away, even if he's struggling with emotions, although he did say he was worried about whether he'd manage to not get upset periodically knowing that it could be our last 'family holiday'.

We started having a discussion around what arrangements may look like in the interim if we separate and before the house is sold, and again that was a pretty reasonable conversation. So I'm feeling hopefully that we might manage this in a grown up way. But I know things can change quickly!!

In the meantime we're just going to try to focus on having a nice holiday (we go on sat for a week) and see what happens.

Oh Op,

I’ve got real alarm bells ringing inside me at the thought of you going on holiday with him.

Even the most reasonable of people would struggle with the set up knowing that a separation is very much on the cards.

Please think this through carefully. Are you staying somewhere isolated or in a hotel? Research the accommodation carefully- is there somewhere you will be able to go to, a neutral space for time out if necessary?

Make sure you have plenty of cash and phone numbers on you always. Keep your phone close. Maybe have an emergency bag packed in case things escalate.

I know this sounds dramatic but things could really ramp up when you are away and with him 24/7.

You can take your daughter to the beach at any time.

How is your gut feeling at going away with him?

Of course you don't fancy him! You don't love him any more or have an emotional connection, why would you "fancy" aka want sex with him!
I think he's just trying another angle as the guilt trip about the connection isn't working as well as it was.
Anyway. Its the same pattern as the one about "being in love". You can't make yourself feel chemistry. What's happening now is the result of him treating you like an object and sexually coercing you for years. It doesn't matter if you can objectively see he's attractive. What matters is your body has shut down to protect you. Listen to it, not to him

@QuentinBunbury yes, totally agree! He's asked me loads of times if I still think he's attractive, which objectively I do, but I only thought today to clarify that because of the lack of connection and with everything that's happened, I don't fancy him anymore.

@Whatdirection honestly, I'm feeling fine about going away, and actually looking forward to it after the last year of lockdown! We spend most of the time in the house together anyway, so at least this way we'll have places to go and things to do. If worst comes to worst he will get another hotel room. It's not isolated at all so no worries on that front. I know it sounds daft and naive but I think it will be fine.

I also think he's got the message on the sex front so won't be going into it with any misconceptions or expectations

Hello, @helplesshopeless I actually enjoyed reading your last few posts as they felt very calm and composed. It feels like you know what you want and you managed to discuss it with your husband without him getting all upset. I agree with others that the vacation may be difficult and posses a risk of you being trapped and unable to get away if need be, but I also can see how you may feel it is a good thing for your family to have one last vacation together before the storm hits it.

You are so right when you say (in one of your previous posts) for us women (but I am sure not everyone is the same), there has to be an emotional connection, loving and caring in order to want to have sex with a person, while for guys it is mostly just physical. Because you had all these issues with him all these years, that emotional connection is broken and that is why you cannot want him physically. Guys do not understand it at all, and they take it very personally, and you probably feel bad about that, but do not, remember you are not responsible for his feelings.

I do hope you have a lovely time away and that you come back rested and armed with resolve to start the separation process as soon as possible. I do believe that this is what needs to be done, no matter how hard it may be (and it is hard, believe me I know). Because, no, I do not believe that love can come back. Once lost, it is lost forever.

You take care now.

You have repeatedly said, you don't love him...Finally deep inside you realise its really real ..

@loveyourself2020 I agree, it's really heartening to see OP using what you might call "critical appraisal skills" in relation to Derek. How is your own situation going? Has your daughter got over the initial trauma?

OP, it's like there's now a much-needed protective barrier where before you were just very much more open to his strategies (intentional or otherwise).

I'm not sure he will be pressuring you for sex on holiday, I think perhaps he might be hoping that you will be overwhelmed with grief at the good times you'll be losing, especially where DD is concerned. And it's possible that you will be. There will be some very strong and poignant emotions to deal with. In such circumstances, it can sometimes be difficult not to make all kinds of wild promises.

Just try not to let yourself be persuaded (and let's face it, it doesn't take much persuasion!) that you are wantonly destroying stable family life in favour of pursuit of your own selfish interests. You're really, really not. I won't bang on because we've deconstructed that on here enough times! 😉

Fingers crossed for you that something positive does come out of the holiday. If you get a chance, try to think about what you want from it and be clear about why. Try to discard, or at least set aside, the self-sabotaging negative judgements of yourself that you've internalised from Derek (flirt throwing yourself at other men, using DD as a weapon, etc). These are not true and they are only used to undermine you.

@Alcemeg
Not much changed in my life. I am still sleeping on the floor, (9 weeks later), and my STBX still does not know if he will get that apartment he is hoping to get. Unfortunately he does not have a plan B at this time, so I am really stressing. The kids are doing well, it seems, there were no more discussions after that one we had in the beginning. Everyone is going about their own business, and for now it all seems to be life as usual.

I myself am not in a very good place these days. Feeling all kinds of emotions (not to scare HH), but this is very hard, brake up of a marriage, especially after all these years. In addition to that it seems that nothing works for me, trouble with a car, work, kids. I am not doubting my decision, it just seems that I am in "the worse" phase before it gets "better". I think that it is important that he moves out and I will not be feeling better until that moment. I am sure there will be moments like these after as well but perhaps not as many and I can start enjoying my life again.

Ahhhhh @loveyourself2020, the darkest hour is before the dawn.

You're in the worst bit, because your energies have been depleted by all the pain, and everything so far has all been about destruction and dismantling.

Honestly, once you can start rebuilding, everything changes. You can start creating a more positive life and it all begins to feel worthwhile.

Hang in there

@loveyourself2020, everything does feel that way at first, like "if it can go wrong it will". @Alcemeg is right.

@loveyourself2020, he is some selfish pig to leavevyou on the floor.
Can you not move the children about.

Thst is disgraceful that you are still on the floor.
Pig.

@Alcemeg, @billy1966, @everythingbackbutyou
Thank you guys for your support. Yes, I know this is the hardest part, when we know it is over but we still live together. It is so uncomfortable and I personally am in pain most of the time. Some kind of anxiety, sickness, pain.. idk. Very strange and complex feelings.

And billy, I think he feels that since I wanted to separate and I wanted us to not sleep together it should be I who should sleep on the floor. If it was him I would feel sorry for him and offer him to switch at some point, but not him. This is how he is and nobody would be able to persuade him that he is wrong. I do not so much mind sleeping on the floor as much as I mind sleeping in the same room. No, we do not have better option at the moment. My son is soon going on a work trip for ten days so I will be able to sleep in his room during this time. I just hope that my STBX moves out as planned, otherwise I will literally loose my mind.

@loveyourself2020, I hope he overheats in his bloody bed and passes out for an indefinite period

@everythingbackbutyou

Oh dear, he did actually, woke up yesterday all overheated and with a blasting headache, very grumpy.

@loveyourself2020, how unfortunate...

@loveyourself2020 I was just the same, sleeping on the floor of the spare room for just the same reasons!

Hilariously, he kept saying I should sleep in the main bed with him so that I could comfort him through his pain 🤨

Honestly, I promise you, this will all be done one day and then you can move on with your life. And that's when it gets really exciting and you will be so so so so so so so so so so so SO proud of yourself for having managed this incredible journey.