Bastard bingo around the campfire

[helplesshopeless]

Hi everyone...creating thread number 2 (or at least, attempting to...!) Link to old thread here

If that link doesn't work, I'll be forever indebted to any of you more mumsnet savvy folks helping me out!

I'll come back in a bit to post properly, thank you all again for your help and support

Hi helplesshopeless

Just caught up with this thread - gosh there have been some developments since l last checked in.

You must be totally exhausted. I don’t have much to offer apart from my support, that hasn’t already been covered by other wise posters.

However l would echo the idea that breaking away from a controlling partner is never straightforward and progress is not linear. I liked the idea of progress being more like a tide ebbing and flowing. Gradually inching your way forward but with lots of backward movement as well. Don’t despair at the see - sawing of emotions. I sense a growing determination within you even if it is engulfed by other emotions on a regular basis. I was so pleased to read that you were really pissed of with him at one point - a very healthy response:-)

In fact l would measure your progress a bit like a rip current - this is where the current on the surface is going one way but there is an undercurrent going in the opposite direction. Very dangerous currents to swim in as they are so deceptive. Your emotions are pulling you in two different directions - your soul is the undercurrent deep and strong but frequently ‘masked’ by the surface current of keeping the status quo.

My gut feeling is the holiday could well bring things to a head. All that enforced time together - he is bound to want to push for sex. You sound very determined that this is non negotiable for you so this may be the deal breaker. It was for me. I simply wasn’t prepared to entertain any intimacy until he had done some emotional heavy lifting and he was stuck in a self sabotaging circle until he got some affection. We were both well and truly stuck.

I think what also holds you back is his apparent ability to calmly analyse his behaviour and offer you reassurances after ‘an incident’. This fits into the classic ‘cycle of abuse’ pattern that keeps many victims trapped - google this - it makes for interesting reading.

I am going to offer a link to a very interesting article l read yesterday about self validation and our emotions - it really resonated with me and hope it helps you with finding some strength to believe in your inner voice

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evolution-the-self/202106/do-you-allow-your-partner-invalidate-your-feelings?amp=

I hope your weekend away gives you time to breathe xxx

@Whatdirection thank you for your lovely message! The analogy of the rip current is a really good one, I have so many different and opposite thoughts and emotions pretty much constantly. It's the first thing I think of when I wake up and then it's nonstop for the whole day.

I've looked up the cycle of abuse again and I remember saying at the start of the first thread that I didn't think it applied much, but it definitely is a cycle we've got into now. I suppose I feed into that as well by frustrating him with lack of affection, and then trying to make amends, and then backing off again etc.

Thanks for the link as well - very interesting. I wonder how I managed to get into this dynamic with my husband, because my parents were certainly not at all disapproving or invalidating of any emotions growing up. I think it's something to do with the guy I was with immediately before my husband, who was very different but had his own issues - I think it 'prepped' me for getting into the kind of relationship I then did.

Meanwhile, I had a lovely morning with my husband (our daughter was at the in-laws), shopping for holiday and having lunch. It's gone south now though because he was offended that I went to sit in the garden when we got home instead of lying in bed with him for a cuddle so he's stropped off over to his parents and I won't see him again until I'm back from my friend's tomorrow. Feeling half anxious with how he left, and have relieved that I can relax for the day now (hopefully)!

Wishing you all a lovely weekend

I wonder if the undercurrent of him pointing to your unforgivable sin is something along the lines of: By rights, I'd be furious with you about that because you deserve a slap (figuratively, of course; he prides himself on not hitting you), so this is all the proof you need that I am already sacrificing more than you and you should meet me halfway

I've just read this again @Alcemeg and you're right, that is what he often alludes to when he expresses frustration that I'm not attempting to meet him in the middle. He says he's making a huge effort to push all of his emotions and upset about the affair to the side and reconnect with me (which he is), and he's frustrated that I'm just 'meh' with him. I usually respond that I feel like I'm making huge efforts internally, and that's when he starts talking about needing me to be proactive and positive and affectionate and see the best in him, and so on.

I should add, he's stropped off because 'he's sick of feeling rejected and it's clear I don't want to be around him' - it's not something he would have normally responded so dramatically to!

It might be nothing to do with you or your upbringing. It might be a pattern you've been trained into subtly by your husband, rewarding you when you do what he wants and punishing you when you don't. It can be very subtle and some people are very good at it. So the dynamic could be all about your husband and not you at all.

Have a read of this and see if it rings bells - it illustrates how some people can have damaging dynamics with resilient well-adjusted partners so might apply
weenacullins.medium.com/the-covert-narcissist-guide-1e46959a6bd1

Wow some of that article is very accurate actually. I wouldn't say he's as extreme as the article makes out but all of the general patterns are there. And he did always used to say how he valued my empathy and kindness as if it was something unusual from his perspective. Food for thought! My poor friend isn't going to know what's hit her tonight once I'm one cocktail down 🍸😆

Enjoy your evening. He went off in a strop before you left, this a typical move of emotional abuse, to get you worrying about his reaction when you get home.
It puts you on the back foot, & designed to put a bkack cloud over your brief freedom.
it is deliberate.
Turn your phone OFF. (Does he know gf's number)
He went off on a strop, lets say, you can be stroppy too. Yes the chances are he will be angry tomorrow. But normally he should be able to control his anger, frustration & hurt, right?
This is the new model remember !!!
He will say Dd has lost something, or is crying for you, or shut her finger in a drawer...anything to remind you he is watching.

It is completely normal to spend an evening with a gf, & not be hounded by a jealous dominating disapproving partner.

That's a brilliant article, @QuentinBunbury. I could have done with reading it years ago!

Enjoy your evening, OP.

“I suppose I feed into that as well by frustrating him with lack of affection, and then trying to make amends, and then backing off again etc.”

Just one quick rephrase to do on this.

How about I suppose he perpetuates the cycle of abuse by pinning the blame on me for his behaviour by saying I’m not affectionate enough towards him after he’s been cruel, but he also blames me whatever I do for example when I try to make amends etc.

Really hope you had a great night out HH!

I hope your gf was supportive.
How was H on your return?

Had such a great night, thank you @Mix56 and @FoxgloveSummers my friend is so supportive and really thinks I'll be a lot happier if I'm not with him, even with the changes he's making.

My husband was a bit off when I first returned, but has been calm and friendly for the rest of the day so all is peaceful for now!

^ "Just one quick rephrase to do on this.^

How about I suppose he perpetuates the cycle of abuse by pinning the blame on me for his behaviour by saying I’m not affectionate enough towards him after he’s been cruel, but he also blames me whatever I do for example when I try to make amends etc."

Hmm, yes, I see what you did there it's so hard to not feel such a weight of responsibility though for this whole situation! Or 'shituation' as I have grown to think of it

Hope you've all had a lovely weekend

Haha yes shituation!! Love it. So glad you had fun with your friend - can I take it she’s quietly pleased you’re thinking of going your own way?

Yes, I think she's worried about me and what is ahead, but says she can tell I've changed over the years in how I think about things as a result of him making me anxious, and she expects to see a positive change in me once we're apart. She also says he's a dickhead who doesn't deserve me 😆 but that may have been the drink talking!

Yessss HH Friend! To be fair you yourself have called him a dickhead and we can all plainly see he doesn’t deserve you!! She sounds awesome and like she’d fit in a treat with this nest of vipers. How are YOU feeling? Has talking to a sympathetic friend helped your clarity? Or more just cheered you up? I reckon either is good!

Glad you had a good night with your friend HH!

I think that through all your ups and down, the one thing that’s clear & consistent is that Derek doesn’t care about your authentic happiness. At all. And he never will. All he cares about, and all he is capable of caring about, is persuading you to behave in a way that suits him. That’s it. And that’s not enough for you to tie yourself to him for the rest of your life, or until your daughter has learned from watching you that relationships involve the woman squashing down her true self and tying herself up in knots to please a man who only cares about himself.

You know this, your friend knows it and we all know it, just from what you’ve told us. You seem like such a lovely caring person, but it’s time to stop caring about this man. Good luck.

@FoxgloveSummers I was feeling great after seeing my friend but I've sunk back into self doubt now! I wish he was consistent in his behaviour so I could conclude this on a constant rather than feeling all over the place. He was lovely all day yesterday and we've had some annoying news about our holiday (new quarantining rules have ruined it!) which he is being really positive about and is on a mission to get us somewhere else to go to.

I think that through all your ups and down, the one thing that’s clear & consistent is that Derek doesn’t care about your authentic happiness. At all. And he never will. All he cares about, and all he is capable of caring about, is persuading you to behave in a way that suits him

I do agree with this to a certain extent. He's saying all the right things about wanting me to be happy, wants me to see my friends more, take up hobbies, enjoy myself etc. And I'm sure he really means it, or thinks he does. But I just don't get the feeling that he truly loves me, and can still behave in a loving way when he's not happy with me. He said to me yesterday via text (after he stormed off) that 'whatever I think of his behaviour, it comes from a place of love and wanting to stay together' and I'm sure that is the case, but he's not able to behave in a loving way from that place of love when it's most needed! So it's not much use to me

I am sorry to hear about your holiday. Do I take your post as an implication that annoying news like that would usually send him into a bad temper?

I’m a bit confused in your post when you say he was lovely all day yesterday, but then refer to him storming off yesterday. Same day? Is it sometimes hard to remember when he does nasty things like storming off because either they’re so common or you’ve trained yourself to quickly “move on” (as he demands) afterwards?

I’m wondering, what if you tried to keep track of the times he behaves badly ? I know that sounds gloomy but I once helped a friend leave a toxic relationship by asking her to keep a list of every time he shouted at her. You could just keep a secret tally maybe on your phone. Just add a mark every time he is unkind, shouty, tells you to try harder, gives you the silent treatment or storms off etc?

Sorry @FoxgloveSummers I got mixed up, I meant he'd stormed off on Saturday before I went away for the night.

Strangely, when things go wrong like holiday or some other general calamities, he actually is very good at stepping up and saving the day. It's more the general daily grind of life stresses that will cause him to go into bad moods. Another reason why I find it so hard to work out his behaviour!

Keeping a list sounds like a good idea. I found one i'd started a few years ago actually - there were things like him shouting at me about where I'd kept the dishwasher tablets which turned into general lecturing about how I'd let myself go and the house was a mess etc

honestly you are an adult and he is not your boss or your overlord to be telling you off like that. Please do restart your list then. And date them so you can see how often etc.

“But I just don't get the feeling that he truly loves me, and can still behave in a loving way when he's not happy with me.” No, I don’t either. And I am sure that’s the hallmark of a loving relationship (of any kind eg friendship, family) that fundamentally even when the person pisses you right off, you still want them fundamentally to be happy and well and not, say, backing away naked in the shower while you harangue them. You wouldn’t do that to your daughter. Your friend wouldn’t do that to you.

The thing about the “place of love” is odd isn’t it. Do you think he’s read that somewhere? It reminds me of stories about corporal punishment where some teachers would beat the children in their care while telling them it was for their own good. Probably not a relationship model you want!!

Come to think of it he’d probably be deeply comfortable back in the early 19 century when you were allowed to hit your wife to “correct” her.

he's not able to behave in a loving way from that place of love when it's most needed! So it's not much use to me

that's it all in a nutshell really ,isn't it ?

he doesn't seem the loving kind ,and actually ,he doesn't seem kind at all .
( oh dear I seem to be talking in Country & Western ! )

He's saying all the right things about wanting me to be happy, wants me to see my friends more, take up hobbies, enjoy myself etc. And I'm sure he really means it, or thinks he does.

He says all this. But his behaviour is different isn't it? Because ultimately when you want to:
Sit on a bench without him
Sit in the garden on your own
Have individual therapy
Think
He doesn't like it, and is very clear to you that he doesn't like it.

So it's only the case that he wants you to do things that make you happy that he finds acceptable.

It's all just words.

Years and years of bad behaviour OP.

You actually sound like you are in a FOG.

Fear, obligation and guilt.

Not love, or anything near it.

The not being consistent is part of the abusive cycle. It keeps you on edge. You're always worrying how he's going to react because he keeps changing.

Hoping for consistency is futile. And yes, he will be 'nice' sometimes, because if he was horrible all the time, you'd leave.

I'm really worried for you with all the sexual pressure he's putting on you. And when he kept pushing himself onto you after you'd said to stop? That's sexual assault. I know that you see this holiday as a litmus test. I think that he sees this holiday as his chance to sleep with you, and that it will be hellish.

we've had some annoying news about our holiday (new quarantining rules have ruined it!) which he is being really positive about and is on a mission to get us somewhere else to go to

Is this what you want?

A cynic might suggest - I'm sure he's working hard to make your holiday happen - it's what he wants especially because he thinks he might have a chance of sex but has he even checked again with you, if you still want to go?