Bastard bingo around the campfire

[helplesshopeless]

Hi everyone...creating thread number 2 (or at least, attempting to...!) Link to old thread here

If that link doesn't work, I'll be forever indebted to any of you more mumsnet savvy folks helping me out!

I'll come back in a bit to post properly, thank you all again for your help and support

Forget about his behaviour and perhaps focus on his personality. He'd need a complete personality transplant to go from the man you described in your original post and the man who you feel relaxed, happy and safe with. Do you really think he has changed in such fundamental ways? I know he's trying to prove it to you, but every time he comes unstuck because his fundamental nature seems just the same.

That's a really helpful distinction, thank you. And of course you are correct as always!! I know he means it when he says it would never happen again once we've got properly back together and are happy, but it's bound to leak out now and then in stressful times. And no, I don't feel safe with him.

I totally get why the holiday appeals to you. Throughout the past few weeks, you've been anxious to give things a proper chance, and the holiday is a kind of acid test.

That's exactly it! I feel like it's absolutely the last chance that I could possibly give this.

I've just got back in and he's irritated with me that I wasn't more enthusiastic about the articles he sent, and that I shut down the sex talk so insensitively. He said I'm clearly repulsed by him and he doesn't understand why I'm so unwilling to try it if it could help (as he would try anything that may help even if he didn't feel like it). He's now gone to a different room for the evening

Well, enjoy the peace whilst he is in a different room

I know he means it when he says it would never happen again once we've got properly back together and are happy

Sorry OP, but there it is again - this promised Hypothetical Future. If only you'd just commit to him, and get back in your box like a Good Girl, he wouldn't have to behave shittily to you, would he?

But as soon as you want to do something that's Too Much Hassle, why is he going behave differently, if he can't now?

The sex thing is ramping up. The PP suggestion to nip this in the bud by ruling it out now is a good one. If he throws his toys out of the pram then that tells you everything. And - from another angle - you are being kind to him by not stringing him along, and allowing him to get his hopes up, aren't you, by telling him in advance.

I think this has been said before but isn't there a generalisation along the lines of men have sex to feel connected and women have to feel a connection in order to want to have sex .?

Oh @helplesshopeless this is classic sexual, emotional abusive, coercive control.
Please, please, leave him. Get him out, if you can. If not, take DD and get away.
Please

But more seriously, the ‘he would try anything that may help even if he didn’t feel like it’ fails to grasp the fundamentals of consent. No-one should try anything that may help even if they don’t feel like it, because the feeling like it and wanting to is crucial. There is also the point that if you don’t feel like it and are coerced into sex, then it would be rape. He is putting an enormous amount of pressure on you.

FFS, Did he send these articles to you while you are out on your bench?
Invading your few minutes of Time Out.?
He is trying to coerce you, prep you fir the sex he intends to have
He is going to want sex on holiday, Believe me, he Is going to get angry & frustrated because he's a man your husband & he's entitled to it.
Have you got to sleep in the same bad?

Re night away at gf's, turn your godamn phone off, He does not need to contact you, you are not a child.

I think you need to state clearly and unequivocally to him that you do not want to have sex with him and that he should not continue to try to coerce you into it. Unless he fully steps away from this behaviour, I would not be going on holiday with him. Simple as. You want different things and you are in a vulnerable position away from home with DD.

He said I'm clearly repulsed by him and he doesn't understand why I'm so unwilling to try it if it could help (as he would try anything that may help even if he didn't feel like it) Yuk. More coercion.
Maybe he could try giving you space and not pestering? That would definitely help and he definitely doesn't feel like it.

BTW I've been wondering if you didn't post because you feel like we are a bad influence on "trying again"?

he doesn't understand why I'm so unwilling to try it if it could help
You don't love him!
He knows you don't love him!
Why would you want sex with him?
What does he think you would get out of it?
This is just another example of him totally discounting your feelings, and it's a particularly repulsive one.

He might just be stupid enough to take Sylvia literally when she describes sex as "a bonding agent" 🤣

(as he would try anything that may help even if he didn't feel like it)
No, he wouldn't!
If you asked him to do something that violated his feelings, he would NOT play along nicely, and why should he?

Imagine his response if you said "I need a bit more space. More than that, I want to try a week with OM to see what that feels like."
He would not say "OK, this hurts but I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make you happy."

None of it makes sense OP, it's just extreme headfuckery I'm afraid.

But you don't want to have sex with him.
That's it. End of conversation. Anything else is Rape talk.
Anything physical is Rape.

oh dear Lord ,I've just read another of Sylvia's articles

www.marriage.com/advice/relationship/how-to-connect-emotionally-with-your-husband/

read these extracts and weep - now we know exactly where HH's husband is coming from

"I offer him an even temperament that ensures that he can look forward to sharing his days with me."

"To stay emotionally connected to Stanly, I make him feel good about himself"

"I never criticize him on his face. I work that frustration off with my secret girlfriends, Hey, that’s what they are for, right?"

"When he talks, I do not interrupt him. He said he liked that about me right from the start.

He says when a woman interrupts a man, he feels she is not interested in what he has to say."

"It all boils down to acceptance and validation. The women stay connected with their men by being agreeable, consistent in temperament, and encouraging."

"Have regular sex – This may be difficult to do, especially if you feel no emotional connection, but having sex is going to be beneficial to both of you. Sex that results in orgasm is one of the biggest doses of oxytocin, or “the love drug” you will ever get".

But according to that article, "For women, [oxytocin] is released post-orgasm and creates an intimate bond of trust by stimulating certain brain sensors."

So you can see his point, it will definitely solve everything. Because an "intimate bond of trust" doesn't require loving respect, it just requires that magic superglue: spunk!!!!!!!!!

@helplesshopeless

He said I'm clearly repulsed by him and he doesn't understand why I'm so unwilling to try it if it could help (as he would try anything that may help even if he didn't feel like it)

Wow. And the fact he'd like to shag you even if he knew you didn't want to, but you were just 'trying' - that in itself must put you off him even more!

He's beginning to sound a bit thick, as well as all the other unpleasant traits and his total disregard for you as an actual person in your own right.

Sorry @peridito, my last post was in response to @SpringCrocus.

I knowwwwwwww, though ... those articles really are something, aren't they?!

Seriously, Derek and Sylvia are a match made in heaven.

So you can see his point, it will definitely solve everything. Because an "intimate bond of trust" doesn't require loving respect, it just requires that magic superglue: spunk!!!!!!!!!
Just spat out my wine

I haven't been to those posted links, but from the quotes from this Sylvia woman, it sounds like some kind of 'surrendered wives' bollocks.

OP dare I suggest you might benefit from reading a few of these articles from our friend Sylvia instead:

www.marriage.com/advice/domestic-violence-and-abuse/dynamics-of-abusive-relationship/

www.marriage.com/advice/domestic-violence-and-abuse/is-your-relationship-abusive/

And perhaps suggest to Derek he might benefit from giving this article a read, seeing as he's so keen on recommendations from this website:

www.marriage.com/advice/mental-health/emotionally-abusive/

He just can't help being who he is, despite his best efforts, it oozes from him.

His petulance.
His entitlement to your body and affection.
His refusal to give you space.
His inability to accept that everything can't happen to his timeline.
His complete inability to accept the consequences of his behaviour.

He is so controlling he even thinks he has the right to control your right to choose to forgive or not.

This is who he is, he can't help himself, it just seeps from him.

Oh OP he's disgusting.

If you have to go on this holiday then let it be the last time you go along with things with him despite not really wanting to.

I hope to see you LTB xx

he would try anything that may help even if he didn't feel like it

@helplesshopeless When people compare doing other activities with sex, I always think it's not right, because sex is different.

Doing stuff you don't want to do sexually isn't the same as letting your OH have something on telly which isn't your cup of tea or whatever. Because being involved in sexual acts you don't want or aren't in the mood for is so unpleasant and kind of harmful.

It doesn't feel the same to everyone, some people can just go along with it sometimes. So if you told him to imagine that sex with him for you is like if he was being manipulated into doing something sexually he didn't want to do, he might still not understand.

It's interesting OP that you talk of his true nature as something that's "bound to leak out now and then in stressful times" -- you already know that the surface "behaviour" he keeps pointing to, that you find so confusing, is not the whole truth but a veneer of pretence. He is sincerely contrite and upset, because everything has backfired on him spectacularly, but his core of mayhem remains. That's why you "don't feel safe with him."

Trust your gut here. You have been as desperate as he is to "find love again" because the last thing you wanted to do was pull the plug on things. So if you had seen REAL evidence of him changing his spots, you'd feel more optimism and confidence than you do. You'd feel relaxed, contented, and relieved not to have to worry any more about the future.

His tactics so far have been to make you feel sorry for him, make you feel guilty about your unforgivable sin, make you feel sorry for him, tell you how great he is now if you could just see it, make you feel sorry for him, get impatient with you for not seeing how great he is now, make you feel guilty about your unforgivable sin, make you feel sorry for him... etc etc. None of this really points to him being a changed character, does it?

I wonder if the undercurrent of him pointing to your unforgivable sin is something along the lines of: By rights, I'd be furious with you about that because you deserve a slap (figuratively, of course; he prides himself on not hitting you), so this is all the proof you need that I am already sacrificing more than you and you should meet me halfway (by e.g. supergluing yourself to him with spunk).

I actually think it's very revealing and helpful that he sent you those specific links. It's like you're a classical musician and he's the conductor and he keeps telling you you're playing it all wrong and need to play a different tune... so you start really questioning your ability... and finally he sends you a YouTube video to how he wants you to play, and it's some kind of pop trash with a pouting singer and dodgy lyrics. I wonder if you felt the same way when you read those articles, a kind of "Does he really think this is what I should be aiming for? That's either funny or terrifying or both." It kind of illustrates how infantile his view of relationships must be. He has a lot of growing up to do, but he's not likely to do it with you because of the well-established power imbalance in your marriage.

He is looking for "expert" validation now,
You should be submissive (& bitch about him behind his back it seems) Shut the fuck up whilst he spouts forth his monologue about why you are wrong & stupid, & should keep running around making his life comfortable.
Culminating in being debased & revulsed by willingly allowing him to screw you (in every sense)
As large tears of horror & revulsion run down your cheeks.

He is correct on one thing though, he has understood you do feel revulsion, but thats OK, shut up & perform.

Morning all!

Thanks for your comments I hope I'm not concerning any of you about whether I'm feeling under pressure/will be guilted into being physical - that is a very clear line for me and I will not be talked into doing anything like that.

I can only imagine what his reaction would be if I told him that me being talked into having sex would be rape. I know it is and I agree with you all - he just would be incredulous at the idea of it and would not get it at all. I remember a few months back he was being 'playful' and kept bashing into me from behind every time I bent over, despite me telling him to stop it. I told him it felt 'rapey' that he was continuing to do it despite me asking him to stop and he absolutely went off on one about me being a 'ridiculous brainwashed extreme feminist' or something along those lines! That was before this all came out though, so maybe he'd watch his reaction a bit more these days.

The part in the article that a few of you picked up on about releasing oxytocin post orgasm was a particular bit he's focussing on too!

So you can see his point, it will definitely solve everything. Because an "intimate bond of trust" doesn't require loving respect, it just requires that magic superglue: spunk!!!!!!!!!

😂😂😂 actually made me snort!!! (Also, yuck!)

Anyway, he made me feel quite anxious and on edge last night with how grumpy he was being, but he apologised this morning for being grumpy and seems a lot better.

Trust your gut here. You have been as desperate as he is to "find love again" because the last thing you wanted to do was pull the plug on things. So if you had seen REAL evidence of him changing his spots, you'd feel more optimism and confidence than you do. You'd feel relaxed, contented, and relieved not to have to worry any more about the future.

Yes, that's true...and I still feel guilty that I'm not giving him what he needs to be able to get me to that place, but actually he should be doing that regardless.

I'm looking forward to the holiday to see our daughter having fun at the pool and beach etc. But I just want to get to and through it now!

@QuentinBunbury no no, don't worry, I wasn't avoiding posting because I was worried about you all being a bad influence I just have more time on my workdays to post as they're the only days I get more than a few minutes to myself