Bastard bingo around the campfire

[helplesshopeless]

Hi everyone...creating thread number 2 (or at least, attempting to...!) Link to old thread here

If that link doesn't work, I'll be forever indebted to any of you more mumsnet savvy folks helping me out!

I'll come back in a bit to post properly, thank you all again for your help and support

Yep, he hasn't managed any of those.

Urrrggghhhh OP I feel your pain!

So he passionately understands (which is I think what you meant?) that you deserve to be treated with respect. Yet he still seems incapable of actually doing it.

Never mind -- setting aside the questions of what he means and doesn't mean, what he is or should be or could be, what his real intentions might be, etc... Just considering this is interesting:

He wants you to give him another chance, over an unspecified time, starting with total capitulation to his needs. That already weighs like lead, because it's him. And he desperately, passionately wants it. So that now starts weighing, ooh, more than uranium. No wonder you feel crushed by expectations!

You don't love him any more and would rather be with someone else. But that weighs like feathers, because it's just you. (Also you have no right to feel it because you committed a Very Bad Sin.*)

Add in his glib logic, and you don't have a leg to stand on.

It would be fun to consider what things would look like if lead, feathers and uranium were swapped round. If your side was given all the weight, and his was just feathers. You'd be waltzing out the back door right now, hardly pausing to say goodbye.

Of course, in a healthy partnership each party's feelings and desires are given equal weight. That's an interesting scenario to try and picture, too. Derek probably lacks the emotional maturity required to find a properly civilised way forward, but it's encouraging that he promises to play fair in the event of a split. (I hope he means it, but you are the best judge of that so I take your word for it.)

I do hope @peridito is right that an amicable separation is possible.

Have fun with your friend, and please tell your mum!

*Just to clarify, it there is such a thing as sin, I don't think it's having an affair when your husband has made you utterly wretched for years. The real moral crime would be to ignore the desperate cries of your soul and fixate on fake love instead of trusting your instinct for the real thing.

Sorry OP, it probably feels like you post an update and we all leap on it, picking it apart - but I think it's testament to how many people can identify with your situation and want to support!

I was re-reading your earlier post, you say I've not really done any of those things because I've been so in my head in trying to work out my feelings

This is his language isn't it? It doesn't sound like you.

Spending time "in your head" is absolutely not a bad thing - it's actually what you crave, the space and time to think.

And I suspect Derek feels threatened by it, he can't control what happens there, hence his desperation to prevent you from hanging out there. It's not a surprise is it, that he couldn't think of anywhere for you to spend time alone that wouldn't make him anxious. Because it's not what you might get up to in the external world, it's what you might get up to in your own head, you dangerous over- thinker, you.

He's now setting a narrative where you need to spend less time thinking and more time "making an effort" and ultimately thinking is bad. It's only bad for him. Please resist this. Continue to insist on space. Especially on holiday. And put your foot down re. girls night - I thought @Mix56 suggestion was a good one - this is a small example for him to prove that he can change in this area - going out should no longer be "too much hassle", it shouldn't be any hassle at all.

@QuentinBunbury. A very relevant list indeed... at first reading, #9 and #12 seem particularly apt here:
#9 = He should stop whining about .... the fact that he is on probation.
#12 = [He must] accept that overcoming abusiveness is likely to be a lifelong process. He at no time can claim that his work is done by saying to you, “I’ve changed but you haven’t,” or complain that he is sick of hearing about this abuse and control and that “it’s time to get past all that."

Also this:
He has to demonstrate that he has come to accept the fact that you have rights and that they are equal to his.
You have the right, OP, to stop loving him and prefer another man. Lord knows it makes perfect sense, not that it needs to!

Those rights are equal to his lead/uranium-heavy longing to pin you down and prove he can change his spots.

OP: Remember OM, and what that felt like, to be with someone capable of recognising your rights as independent of his own? The way he just completely accepted your choice to stay with Derek, and wished you well with it.

That's not just what real love looks like, that's basic human respect. I know you were incredulous and thought such selfless appreciation only happens in movies, but honestly you're just looking for it in the wrong places (or should I say "place"...)

@Cavagirl
I think it's testament to how many people can identify with your situation and want to support!
Yes!!! This.
I'm writing a novel about my own experiences of this situation and when I sent it off for editorial review, an overall key comment was that the narrator was "flip-flopping" about all over the place (I smiled, OP, when you used this word) and couldn't seem to have a single idea without immediately contradicting themselves, which makes it very hard for the reader. I realised I have a lot of explaining to to, to make this intelligible to people who haven't lived through a relationship like this.

You'll get there dear girl, when you're ready

It's interesting isn't it alcemeg,
I read "Blood orange" and found it totally chilling and a bit triggering. Friends have read it and said it was unbelievable. It just goes to show how damaging coercive control is, in that sufferers think its how all relationships operate and people who haven't experienced it can't believe it could be true

@QuentinBunbury Oooohhhh, I haven't read that, but I will. I want to read as many books as I can that deal with this, so please let me know if you think of any more!

It's incredibly hard to write about, because in retrospect it does seem utterly implausible! It's such a weird place to find yourself trapped, like some kind of helpless addiction to a ridiculously mindbending drug.

That is a very powerful and clear list, QuentinBunbury which I will take time to reflect properly on later. It certainly gives anyone who has been abused clear reason and permission to stop blaming themselves or feeling it was something they did/should have done differently. Worth reading and re-reading.

@Cavagirl you're absolutely right, that is his wording around being too much in my head. And yes, he has guilted me

@Mix56 really good suggestion re the night out - unfortunately I'm staying at my friend's as it's a bit of a journey away so no opportunity to test it really.

@QuentinBunbury thank you for that list. I did read the book, but don't actually remember reading that bit! I'd say he does do some/many of them, but only in part for each one, so I suppose it doesn't count...

The real moral crime would be to ignore the desperate cries of your soul and fixate on fake love instead of trusting your instinct for the real thing.

I'm going to cling onto that ❤️ and you're completely right, I know you are.

Honestly, I had managed to get back into a head fog but all of you wonderful MNers have set me straight again! I actually think the holiday is going to help me consolidate everything (not sure why, just feeling hopeful!), so we shall see...

Better get back to that urgent work I've still not got through..! Sorry, I know there's loads of really helpful comments that I've not managed to respond to, but I appreciate you all very much

I'd say he does do some/many of them, but only in part for each one, so I suppose it doesn't count...grin
It's like when someone apologises and says "but ". Not an apology any more.

I actually think the holiday is going to help me consolidate everything (not sure why, just feeling hopeful!), so we shall see...

Gosh wouldn't that be lovely, if you came away from it having achieved what YOU want.

I'm not sure how to put this, but I will try:

Derek has an ugly way of seeing things (absolutely the worst-case scenario, fuelled by selfishness and resentment).

You have a beautiful way of seeing things (hoping to create a gentler future, based on love and respect).

Try not to let his view cloud yours. Try to hold onto your vision of what "better" could look like.

Because one day, if you keep it steadily in mind, you will manage to create it. Just because things are messy and awful now doesn't mean they always will be.

I really like that saying "Everything is always all right in the end. If it's not all right, it's not the end yet."

You get to decide how you end up.

The holiday is not the worst idea. It might consolidate a few things. As I said earlier @helplesshopeless my first marriage finally ended on that last ditch attempt holiday!

Being in an enforced time of togetherness, with neither of you working, seeing friends or family, or having the everyday chores and activities that punctuate life and give natural gaps to each other's company - that's going to highlight everything, and will maybe give you both clarity.

I wonder if he's hoping that if you get to spend even more time with him, doing lovely positive holiday stuff with your daughter together, having quality time together when she's in bed, that you will be happy and relaxed and in the mood for things to get back to being intimate between you.

What do you hope for from this time away together?

@FantasticButtocks I'm sure he is hoping for exactly as you describe, which makes it difficult

I think I am expecting to have a lovely time, no tempers or unpleasantness, and for that to be an opportunity for me to see clearly that despite valuing the family time together, I still don't have the feelings I need to and don't see how I can develop them. I suppose that's where I am at now, but this will be a final confirmation for me (and him, if that is what I conclude). I am hoping that I don't go down the rabbit hole of self doubt and guilt while I'm at it!!

He then pointed out that I always say that i am assuming in working on things that he was going to be on his best behaviour going forwards, so if I was holding back on the basis of what he was capable of (based on past experience) then I wasn't giving him a fair chance to prove he can change. Fair point I think?!

I know others have dealt with this, but I feel compelled to chip in too - sorry! His argument is actually completely idiotic (even if it seemed to make sense at the time). "I've said I'm going to change and you believed me, so even though I'm not actually changing you are honour bound to assume/pretend I will change or it's NOT FAIR."

I mean if a toddler kept - I dunno - punching the cat, and you told them to stop... this from Derek is the equivalent of the toddler saying "You said you believe I'll stop punching the cat, so why are you keeping an eye on me with the cat? It's NOT FAIR! And the fact that actually in reality I am still punching the cat? Your fault for not giving me a chance to prove I can change."

I suppose I see the recent ones as separate from his usual behaviour, because of the situation.

But sweetheart, it's the same old same old isn't it? He hadn't altered his behaviour really, despite your affair. It's actually your behaviour NOW - i.e. holding him to account, asking for space, asserting your own personal right to be respected and treated with basic kindness - that is forcing him to reassess and change. So if anything "the recent ones" are even more egregious because it's while he's purporting to be on his best behaviour. What I'm saying is, instead of seeing the recent bad behaviour as excusable (because of the affair) and writing it off - this tendency from you, by the way, is doubtless what enabled your relationship to reach the point of marriage in the first place because you'll have been willing to look on emotional abuse as an exception or special case due to XYZ - see it as particularly bad!!!

@helplesshopeless

@FantasticButtocks I'm sure he is hoping for exactly as you describe, which makes it difficult

Don't do anything you don't want to do.

@FoxgloveSummers I totally agree, I think where our discussions get muddled for me is that he views his improvement as a process rather than something instant, which is fair enough when he has problems to work on, so it's difficult to judge him for not immediately wiping out all previous bad behaviours given the situation we're in.

Separately, I'm on the bench(!) reading some of the articles he's sent me- he's said the last part of this one is particularly interesting. www.marriage.com/advice/emotional-intimacy/what-to-do-when-youre-feeling-no-emotional-connection-with-your-husband/

They're mainly annoying me at the moment!!

I'd tell him you found this paragraph most interesting: The reason for a lack of emotional connection could vary from your husband’s sheer negligence, or he is just not emotionally intelligent.

You know he's being sexually coercive though, don't you? It's very unhealthy for him to say that as it's putting pressure on you to do something you don't want to do. You didn't search for that article, you didn't ask for that advice, he's pushed it on you to get you to comply.

for you. I know sexual coercion is hard to talk about but really, it's horrific that he guilts you into sex like this

So even when you manage to escape him, onto your bench, he is invading your thoughts and you are doing what he told you to (reading an article HE told you to read)
Oh, @helplesshopeless
Please, leave, take your precious DD and escape from this coercive, controlling man.

@QuentinBunbury yes, I know  and I'm absolutely clear in myself that I'm not going to be pressured into anything in that respect.

@SpringCrocus Yes, you're right. He did ask me to read these because he's so keen to help make things work, but I'm doing it to help with my guilt so I can feel like I've at least tried what he's asked. And it got me some bench time I don't think they're going to change anything for me as I'm (after you all straightening me out again!) reading them with a good dose of cynicism.

Please, don't go "on holiday" with him. Let HIM go away, and you and DD have a nice time without him. And you get some thinking time.

He did ask me to read these because he's so keen to help make things work
No. He did it because he wants sex. It's a really clear motivation of his, from your posts. He feels like you owe him sex and he'll try various things to get it.

You don't have to live with this. Honestly. It's unhealthy and other men don't behave like it.

What would happen if you said, really clearly "I know you want sex, but I don't at the moment and there is no chance of us having sex on holiday so don't pressure me to do it". Would he refuse to go? Would he lose his temper? Would he guilt trip you about not trying? Would he respect you and keep his hands off for a week? Only one of these is acceptable

I think he'd actually get annoyed at me being so forthright and assuming the worst of him, rather than the actual sex issue! And would probably also mention that he thinks I need to open myself up to the possibility and be more positive. But yes, not an ideal response in any event.

OMG OP, Sylvia Smith is a nut job for sure! Talking about emotional detachment as a problem to be fixed by making more effort, instead of emotional detachment as a form of self-protection and a warning sign.

it's difficult to judge him for not immediately wiping out all previous bad behaviours given the situation we're in
I think it's difficult to judge him at all based on "behaviours," because he is a bit erratic despite his proclaimed intentions.

I think you have to set aside an assessment of "behaviour" because he will be trying his very best right now in a way that I suspect he won't be, say, in 2 years' time when you've just had his second child.

Forget about his behaviour and perhaps focus on his personality. He'd need a complete personality transplant to go from the man you described in your original post and the man who you feel relaxed, happy and safe with. Do you really think he has changed in such fundamental ways? I know he's trying to prove it to you, but every time he comes unstuck because his fundamental nature seems just the same.

I totally get why the holiday appeals to you. Throughout the past few weeks, you've been anxious to give things a proper chance, and the holiday is a kind of acid test.

Just beware of what can happen when two people with a lot at stake go into a situation with completely different agendas. You both tend to see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear.

Good luck !

I can see where Derek's getting some of his crazier ideas from, having read that article.

At least you no longer need to worry about him, because his future is going to be rosy: him and Sylvia Smith dancing off into the sunset together.

Sylvia Smith loves to share insights on how couples can revitalize their love lives in and out of the bedroom [my mind is boggling at this. Derek's in for a good time!]. Sylvia believes that every couple can transform their relationship into a happier, healthier one by taking purposeful and wholehearted action.

I believe that every individual can transform their life into a happier, healthier one by taking purposeful and wholehearted action.