Bastard bingo around the campfire

[helplesshopeless]

Hi everyone...creating thread number 2 (or at least, attempting to...!) Link to old thread here

If that link doesn't work, I'll be forever indebted to any of you more mumsnet savvy folks helping me out!

I'll come back in a bit to post properly, thank you all again for your help and support

Yes, that is true re liking him enough. I think what is holding me back too is the fact that, even if everything was good with him, I know there's the potential for a better connection elsewhere and that feels horribly unfair as he can't help that, and it just seems so fickle of me...

OP,

Look, if you decide to stay and believe him that will be your call.

He certainly knows that he was too nasty for too long and knows that you will definitely at least explore leaving.

Personally when people show me who they are, I believe them and I don't believe in a 360 degree turn around in someone's personality and character.
I do not believe it is possible to change who you are at your core.

I have NO DOUBT whatsoever if you do stay he will be hugely enthusiastic about having another baby to cement the relationship.

This will be the biggest mistake you will ever make as it will tie you to him even more and put you into a hugely vulnerable position again.

I wasn't giving him a fair chance to prove he can change
He keeps on having temper tantrums, shouting at you, threatening you, calling you names etc. I don't understand why you are going along with his argument that his bad behaviour was in the past.

He then pointed out that I always say that i am assuming in working on things that he was going to be on his best behaviour going forwards, so if I was holding back on the basis of what he was capable of (based on past experience) then I wasn't giving him a fair chance to prove he can change. Fair point I think?!

Not really. I think you are both discussing a lot about the Hypothetical Future World, which isn't particularly helpful. In the Hypothetical Future World, you have a cast iron guarantee that he will never ever behave abusively again. Therefore you should trust him and love him now, like you would in the Hypothetical Future World.

The problem is that he's shown in the last 2 months that cast iron guarantee is worthless, and whenever he is stressed/angry about your affair/ he reverts to type. So you have zero evidence the Hypothetical Future World has any potential to exist. And therefore this entire argument is pointless. Why do you "always say that you are assuming in working on things that he was going to be on his best behaviour going forwards" when that patently isn't true? Are you still saying that? I'd say it's totally fair for you to think that his recent behaviour is evidence you can't possibly assume that at all, and therefore need to act accordingly.

He's sent me loads of articles about how to fall in love with your husband again
I'm sure he has. What about what you actually need, and are actually asking for? Time away, sitting on a bloody bench, space? Is he listening to any of that? Or does he just believe he can argue you into loving him?

You're back in the judgement court again OP, desperately trying to sort right from wrong, weighing up arguments and logic against each other, which is a futile exercise because you can't argue with feelings and you can't rationalise yourself into loving someone, especially when they've behaved as he has.

Are you still seeing your friend this weekend?

I can see why the counselling went smoothly.

I then had to go and do bedtime and in the meantime my husband ploughed on with booking the holiday! I guess I wasn't clear enough with him
Sure, it must be your fault that he accidentally booked the holiday bindingly while you were out of the room.

Oh God, sorry, yes he keeps saying he can be nice, then having major lapses, & every time he says its your fault because you aren't doing, or being, this, that or the other. Blame makes you make excuses for him, & back track, & makes you feel guilty & question yourself.
Shouldn't he just be a nice person, all on his own ?
Why are there always reasons why isn't ?
And then he books a holiday, whilst you "didn't make yourself clear"....
Or just, he does what he wants & you follow along like a lamb to the slaughter.

He keeps on having temper tantrums, shouting at you, threatening you, calling you names etc. I don't understand why you are going along with his argument that his bad behaviour was in the past.

I suppose I see the recent ones as separate from his usual behaviour, because of the situation. That's not to say I'm excusing it at all, but it does mean that I recognise that outside of this situation, all of his other unpleasant behaviours have gone.

You're back in the judgement court again OP, desperately trying to sort right from wrong, weighing up arguments and logic against each other, which is a futile exercise because you can't argue with feelings and you can't rationalise yourself into loving someone, especially when they've behaved as he has.

Urgh, yes, you're right I think I've managed to guilt myself into thinking I need to make more of an effort, because of what's at stake and because of how sad he is. You're right about the hypothetical future world as well. It's very difficult to untangle that logic from the messiness of our situation and see it for what it is.

Yes, I am still seeing my friend this weekend we're even going out for drinks!

Well, I wish you all the best OP, and hope that this thread will be of help to other readers.

I've just read some of my posts from earlier in the week and can see how my mind has completely flip flopped!! I'm frustrated with myself. I still know what I want but I feel like I'm stuck back not listening to my feelings again

OP,
That you actually believe he accidentally booked a holiday as you briefly left room is beyond sad to read.

Your naivety is quite staggering and explains how you ended up with him in the first place.

He is just controlling you.

This holiday is an attempt to lull you into staying.

No more, no less.

I have no doubt at some point in your future the scales will fully fall from your eyes and you will see the full horror of who he is, but clearly it will be time wasted that could have been spent creating a happy life elsewhere.

You haven't a hope in hell of a long happy marriage with that nasty excuse, but you'll have to find out for yourself, like a lot of poor women.

@billy1966 honestly he didn't do it to trap me. He actually came to me beforehand to ask if I definitely wanted to go on holiday, as he sensed that my heart wasn't in it. That's what opened up our discussion (that I then had to leave to do bedtime), and ultimately he booked it in a rush to make sure we got a holiday before the prices went up after the green list announcements. I wasn't brave enough to be clear on what I actually thought and so that's on me!

@helplesshopeless

He then pointed out that I always say that i am assuming in working on things that he was going to be on his best behaviour going forwards, so if I was holding back on the basis of what he was capable of (based on past experience) then I wasn't giving him a fair chance to prove he can change. Fair point I think?!

But when is his 'best behaviour' going to actually start? Because how are you supposed to operate on the basis of him being this different person, when he keeps proving time and time again that he is the same?

I know we've had lots of stumbles around him coping with this situation, but I do truly believe that he is improving, and if it hadn't been for the affair stressing him out he'd probably be getting full marks for his behaviour now.

Why? What would have been the catalyst for him changing if you hadn't had the affair?

I have been making it difficult for him too because I'm so standoff-ish so he feels like he's getting no positive reinforcement for all of his efforts in reconnecting with me.
So it's still your fault. (His behaviour)

He's bloody brilliant at this, isn't he?

What a roller coaster you are on, OP, and up and down it goes. I hope you have a nice time with your friend this weekend without too many interruptions and rules to obey.

even if everything was good with him, I know there's the potential for a better connection elsewhere

mmm ,so even if everything was good with him it would still be lacking, it wouldn't be possible to have the connection you want .And you know this .

That's not fickle ,that's just being self aware and honest .

It might be unfair ,unfair for both of you that your marriage hasn't progressed as you expected .Goodness knows what fair looks like ,I don't think it looks like trying to have a relationship where one person meets a set of criteria where they stop being selfish ,having tantrums and not respecting their wife .

And therefore the other person has to put her feelings aside and stay with them

I'm surprised to hear you describe him as kind HH ,but I guess we're not to privy to all the little interactions that go on between him and you ,him and your daughter .

Urgh, yes, you're right sad I think I've managed to guilt myself into thinking I need to make more of an effort, because of what's at stake and because of how sad he is. I think he's guilted you, actually. How would more of an effort help? He's convinced you that his behaviour is as a result of your behaviour (it's your fault) and also your feelings are as a result of his behaviour (also your fault) so all is this would be solved by you "making more of an effort ".

What about him making more of an effort, not with what he thinks he needs to make an effort with, but on what you're asking for, namely time and space?

You're right about the hypothetical future world as well. It's very difficult to untangle that logic from the messiness of our situation and see it for what it is. and that is completely understandable, and why a) keep posting here for support and thoughts b) individual therapy! c) support IRL (you need to tell your mum OP)

Yes, I am still seeing my friend this weekend smile we're even going out for drinks! wine really really glad to read this. Have a lovely time!

also your feelings are as a result of his behaviour
Should have been
As a result of your behaviour!

give us an edit button!

And also @helplesshopeless

but he is so passionate about understanding how I deserved so much more than what I've had from him before,

So he still needs to try and understand that you deserved to be treated with respect?

and he would love the chance to show me how much better he can treat me. But he's been having the chance! So is he saying he won't really get going on this better treatment of you until you have agreed to stay? Or until he understands fully why you need to be treated better?

Please tell him you are going out for drinks with your friend, you will not You do not expect to be check up on, nor bothered all night with messages ad nauseam, & you don't know what time you will be home.
Please Please do this, then turn off your phone. go home when you are full ready & see how he sulks, tries to have sex when you get home etc....
You do not have to spell out how you will have a normal night out.
Do this as an experiment. Please.

Reading the thread and all the wise responses and HH's honest and painful posts have given me a lot to think about .Definitely a useful thread for me .

HH I think maybe both of you are working towards an amicable separation .Perhaps I'm being over optimistic but I sense that it could be a possibility ,where once it wasn't .

he was not at all threatening me or mentioning suicide, he was explaining his thoughts to me in a calm reflective way later on. He was trying to describe how he felt like he'd completely lost control that day and things got out of hand (ie he felt so so stressed and anxious that he'd actually had self harm thoughts pop into his head). He definitely wouldn't do anything like that, he knows it as well and wasn't suggesting that he'd ever follow through

All the justification and context around this doesn't matter really and is him trying to seem reasonable. What matters is he knows you hate causing people you love pain, and he's told you that certain behaviour from you might cause him to harm himself.
It's an implied threat rather than an actual one and it's done the trick as now you are policing your own behaviour so he doesn't have these feelings.

I think, if you can manage it, it's worth trying to take a step back from his long explanations and consciously think, is this his issue to deal with or mine? At the moment you still act as though if his narrative is reasonable to him, it must be the truth and you should act accordingly.

So with the holiday. You don't want to go and you told him that. He still booked it. That's his problem. You told him you don't want to go. It's not a fair accompli in that now it's booked you have to go.

Similarly, you can't "logic" yourself into loving him. It's not like somethings missing and if he plugs that back in, switch! The love is back on.

He killed your feelings by being abusive for many years. If he can't admit that, then he ultimately is not recognising what he did and therefore is unlikely to change

Wrong peridito, , he is saying all sorts of things to pacify HH & convince her he is a nice person, & would act like a nice father, & behave as a nice adult with a daughter to co parent
Watch how this turns around if HH says she wants a divorce. You know the divorce that he has already filled the papers in, & said he had sent, to upset & manipulate her just a couple of days ago.

It does feel as though you’ve taken a retrograde step but ultimately no-one could ever say you didn’t give him a fair chance. I’ve said before as have many others that whilst you might see some tweaks in behaviour and some temporary improvements you can’t fundamentally have a personality transplant. He hasn’t been able to keep a lid on his tantrums while supposedly on best behaviour.

However, what I still find distressing is he isn’t giving you proper time to think and reflect. Ambushing you while in the shower, encouraging you to stop counselling, trying to stop you walking to sit on a bench. You’ll go off on holiday and be together 24/7 and he’ll mess with your mind again and you’ll end up feeling sorry for him once more.

Please take some time alone on your holiday. Have a daily walk, look at the sea, go the Mumsnet Spa favourite. Above all think and really reflect. Good luck because I think you’re really going to need it.

Don't know where you got to with Bancroft but I found the section about how likely someone abusive was to change very useful:

STEPS TO CHANGE

1. Admit fully to his history ofpsychological, sexual, and physical abusiveness toward any current or past partners whom he has abused. Denial and minimizing need to stop,including discrediting your memory of what happened. He can’t change if he is continuing to to cover up, to others or to himself, important parts of what he has done.
2. Acknowledge that the abuse was wrong, unconditionally. He needs to identify the justifications he has tended to use, including the various ways

that he may have blamed you,and to talk in detail about why his behaviors were unacceptable without slipping back into defending them.

1. Acknowledge that his behavior was a choice, not a loss of control. For example, he needs to recognize that there is a moment during each incident at which he gives himself permission to become abusive and that he chooses how far to let himself go.
2. Recognize the effects his abuse has had on you and on your children, and show empathyfor those. He needs to talk indetail about the short-and long-term impact that his abuse has had, including fear, loss of

trust, anger, and loss offreedom and other rights. And he needs to do this without reverting to feeling sorry forhimself or talking about how hard the experience has beenfor him.

1. Identify in detail his pattern of controlling behaviors and entitled attitudes. He needs to speak in detail about the day-to-day tactics of abuse he has used. Equally important, he must be able to identify his underlying beliefs and values that have driven those behaviors, such as considering himself entitled to constant attention, looking down on you as inferior, or believing that men aren’t responsible for their

actions if “provoked” by apartner.

1. Develop respectful behaviors and attitudes to replace the abusive ones he is stopping.You can look for examples such as improving how well he listens to you during conflicts and at other times, carrying his weight of household responsibilities and child care,and supporting yourindependence. He has to demonstrate that he has come to accept the fact that you have rights and that they are equal to his.
2. Reevaluate his distorted image of you, replacing it with a more positive and empathic view. He has to recognize that he has had mental habits of focusing onand exaggerating his grievances against you and his perceptions of your weaknesses and to begin instead to complimentyou and pay attention to your strengths and abilities.
3. Make amends for the damage he has done. He has to develop a sense that he has a debt to you and to your children as a result of his abusiveness. He can start to make up somewhat for his actions by being consistently kind and supportive, putting his own needs on the back burner for a couple of years, talking with people whom he has misled in regard to the abuse and admitting to them that he lied,

paying for objects that he has damaged, and many other steps related to cleaning up the emotional and literal messes that his behaviors have caused.(At the same time, he needs to accept that he may never be able to fully compensate you.)

1. Accept the consequences of his actions. He should stop whining about, or blaming you for, problems that are the result of his abuse, such as your loss of desire to be sexual with him,the children’s tendency to prefer you, or the fact that he ison probation.

10. Commit to not repeating his abusive behaviors and honor that commitment. He should not place any conditions on his improvement, such as saying that he won’t call you names as long as you don’t raise your voice to him. If he does backslide, he cannot justify his abusive behaviors by saying,“But I’ve done great for five months; you can’t expect me to be perfect,” as if a good period earned him chips to spend on occasional abuse. 11. Accept the need to give up his privileges and do so. This means saying good-bye to double standards, to flirting with other women, to taking off with his friends all weekend while you look after the children, and to being allowed to express anger while you are not. 12. Accept that overcomingabusiveness is likely to be alifelong process. He at no timecan claim that his work is doneby saying to you, “I’ve changedbut you haven’t,” or complainthat he is sick of hearing abouthis abuse and control and that“it’s time to get past all that.”He needs to come to terms withthe fact that he will probably need to be working on his issues for good and that you may feel the effects of what he has done for many years. 13. Be willing to be accountable for his actions, both past andfuture. His attitude that he is above reproach has to bereplaced by a willingness to accept feedback and criticism, to be honest about any backsliding, and to be answerable for what he does and how it affects you and your children

When he sends you articles about rebuilding after an affair, you could send him that list