Bastard bingo around the campfire

[helplesshopeless]

Hi everyone...creating thread number 2 (or at least, attempting to...!) Link to old thread here

If that link doesn't work, I'll be forever indebted to any of you more mumsnet savvy folks helping me out!

I'll come back in a bit to post properly, thank you all again for your help and support

Oh also, just wanted to clarify that our daughter was at nursery yesterday and so she didn't witness any of his behaviour - so please don't worry about her being tangled up in thissmile, she's full of beans as normal!
It's better she didn't observe it directly but the tension at home will affect her.

I feel like I'm talking about myself a lot, and I apologise but I'm trying to give you examples so you don't feel alone.

Ultimately if he decides to cut all contact with you that's his choice and he is choosing to hurt his daughter. You aren't making that choice.

My ex refused to set foot in my house (our children's other home) until about 2 months ago. He refuses to meet DP. He refuses to do anything to help me out. Ultimately none of this directly affects me but it does affect my kids. And they can see who is reasonable and who isn't, when I say hello to his new partner, when I come into his house to see their latest partner, etc.
They know whose making the choice that makes their lives harder.

Detach detach detach. He's choosing to put himself ahead of DD, he needs to own the consequences

Latest partner should say latest artwork
Or meet their new guinea pig or see how they've had their bedroom painted

In view of him saying he wants another child in the future, he is already projecting to a new partner & child , so no need to play friendly parents with your XH.
Possibly the odd School sports day/a civil Xmas/Prom/DDs wedding, you may be obliged to both be present..

So very well done HH, your quietly gathering strength shines more with each post and for DD

FantasticButtocks makes a good point there re holidaying.
You could tell him you can't go on holiday with him as spending time with him would be too difficult for you. He can hardly complain if you use the same reasoning as him.

Oh you poor thing you must be shattered from all that emotional drama. It's so exhausting. He really pulled out all the stops didn't he? Having another child and yours will feel left out? Jesus Christ. He's moved on fast then. Ignore the threats about the future and concentrate on the now - what will happen will happen and you can't control him or whatever nasty things he may choose to do.

Please tell your mum asap, you need some RL support. So glad the boss was kind.

Do go on holiday just you and your daughter - somewhere quiet and peaceful for you. Or your mum's if that's a good option. You daughter is tiny doesn't need holidays right now, she has no idea what Covid is and simply wants time with just you and some fun stuff. You do not owe him anything less alone this holiday

You know wailing for hours is not normal right? It was a performance for your benefit. It's not a normal response to even serious stress. Lots of people have terrible things happen, bereavement and betrayals and worse and don't sob for hours. Yes we cry and get upset and feel shit as the waves of pain come and go. But wailing non-stop. FOR HOURS? I bet if you'd left the house for a while he'd have stopped, made a sandwich, pootled about and started up when you got back.

Take care of yourself. Please try and get a good sleep tonight..

Great news about your job.

Please tell your mum.

Please DO NOT go on holiday with him.

The last thing you need is that stress.

This must be so draining.

His histrionics are all about himself, his no longer being able to control you.

Protect yourself for your child from him.

I do find it odd that he is telling you that he wants to have another child in a new family .

I can't imagine that in his mind he is already picturing a future without HH,that he can make that mental leap while being so upset . Perhaps he was saying it to hurt or thinking of a theoretical situation so that he could add another instance of how splitting up would be harmful for his existing daughter .

@Mix56
This is an all time classic cycle of a abuse,
He is the text book abusive thug
The sobbing, the begging,
Instantly followed by anger, insults, threats & the trump card, accusations that you are mentally impaired.
Swiftly followed by apologies,
Its a classic, they could use this as a tutorial for abused women.
And you carry on with tired cranky child, work load stress, & soon the constant weight & unrest is so heavy you give up, just to have peace & quiet . & quite literally roll over.

Spot on Mix56. I cannot believe it, he ticked ALL the boxes, did not miss a thing, first sobbing then anger then apologizing. That should teach you a lesson!!! I know that there is a lot of discussion weather or not people are abusing on purpose or they just do it, but it really does not matter. Just like you said OP, it still has the same outcome. What matters is that he will not change. I do not believe it is possible for people to change. Yes, we can alter our behavior somewhat and only if we are aware that we are doing something wrong and we care about not hurting another person, but to change significantly, from THIS person to change into a loving and caring, compassionate, selfless being? NO, that will not happen.

@Gerwurtztraminer
You know wailing for hours is not normal right? It was a performance for your benefit. It's not a normal response to even serious stress. Lots of people have terrible things happen, bereavement and betrayals and worse and don't sob for hours. Yes we cry and get upset and feel shit as the waves of pain come and go. But wailing non-stop. FOR HOURS? I bet if you'd left the house for a while he'd have stopped, made a sandwich, pootled about and started up when you got back.
And THAT.

OP, I am so glad to see that you are finally seeing through this charade, through this play he puts on to keep you on the leash. I have never mentioned this before but my dad was an abuser. Mostly to my mom. He would abuse her emotionally, verbally and physically, sometimes. She tried really hard to hide all this from us, but it kept seeping through and eventually it was out in the open, so my sister and I knew it, sew it, felt it. I loved my mom, was very close to her, she was my idol as she had very hard life but somehow managed to raise us well. Never got close to my dad at all. I cannot say that I hated him, but definitely did not love him, like him or wanted to spend any time with him. Although I loved my mom to pieces and understood why she could not leave (at that time women were ostracized no matter whose fault the divorce was; financial reasons as she was a SHAM; she wanted to give us the best chance), I blamed her, I did blame her for not leaving him, for not taking us away from that man, for pretending that all is well while it clearly was not and putting us in a position too to pretend, to walk around on eggshells in our own home, for having to show love and affection to that man, who was abusing our mother.

I know that people often say that they want to stay because of the children and I understand that raising children is hard and single parenting must be so much harder still, but I think that that is totally wrong. First, for aforementioned reasons, you do not want your kids to be witnessing abuse, if there is some, or even your or your husband’s unhappiness in the marriage, whatever the reason. But also, something people do not seem to think about, I do not think it is fair to the kids to say, you are staying in the unhappy marriage for them. It is not ok to put that kind of a pressure on the kids. Imagine the guilt they would feel once they realize this? I know I felt it, always.

And after all, I will say what I said many times before, you deserve to be happy, content, joyful, relaxed, to have some peace and quiet in your own home, in your own life. You, OP, should think of yourself too, not just your DD and especially not your DH. Not at this point anyway.

Sending you love.

No do not go on holiday with him, it gives all the wrong messages.
There is no point keeping his hopes up, & being a sitting duck for his repeated attacks

@ravenmum

FantasticButtocks makes a good point there re holidaying. You could tell him you can't go on holiday with him as spending time with him would be too difficult for you. He can hardly complain if you use the same reasoning as him.

Yes! Good one.

@helplesshopeless
I forgot to say (when I mentioned that my first marriage finally ended in the early hours of the morning after 8 months of angst and prevarication) that when it happened we were on holiday!! He then flew back home early.

The strain of playing happy families, politely getting on fine superficially as we took our dcs to the beach etc, became too much. Because the normal intimate stuff of holidays was not in the mix at all. We were flogging a dead horse and it just became more apparent.

Op, in the nicest possible way I want to give you a good shake.

I've read both of your threads this evening, just your posts, and your husband hasn't changed. This is him on his best behaviour which he is finding a strain to keep up for this length of time. Not because he is so emotional that he can't help it, but because he needs to reel you back in. If he isn't snapping at everyone then he is just reserving it all for you.

Almost every update you're posting how he 'lost control' and was nasty again. This is the absolute best behaviour you're ever going to get out of him. He is straining to keep a lid on his real feelings and it is showing.

I left my husband in January last year after years of abuse. It's so so nice not to have someone be nasty to me daily while being nice to everyone outside of the house. I have a new partner who goes way out of his way to make me happy and doesn't see that effort as anything special, just normal behaviour. Do you not think you deserve at the very least a calm household?

Having read all your posts and updates, I found this so triggering. I was in a relationship with an emotional abuser many years ago. My head was where yours is. Trust me, you could not possibly do more. Your daughter needs to grow up away from this toxic relationship which is NOT your fault, it is his.

His pain may be genuine, but it is not love, it is pain at losing control.

You can't "help" him, he doesn't want to change. Every step of the way he is manipulating you, gaslighting you, so your sense of reality is distorted. This will not return to normal until some weeks or months after you leave.

You owe it to your daughter to move on. Hopefully you will find someone loving and normal, and your daughter will then see how a good relationship can be. This is so important.

I left my abusive exdw when our daughter was 2, after hesitation like yours for months. Our daughter is now 19, at university and she loves her 2 younger half siblings. She also loves my dw. She recently told me that our happy, loving and stable relationship helped her throughout her childhood. Her mother went on to have a series of unstable, angry (and I suspect, abusive) relationships ever since.

For your daughters sake you need to be strong. Leave and stay away. And take your daughter with you.

@alvinp I think that's just what OP needed to hear, thank you for posting, and it's good to be reminded that this is not a gender-specific problem!

Glad you have found your happiness. To be honest I think it's not that difficult, is it, once we remove ourselves from being grafted to a rotten stump.

A holiday with him would be a nightmare.
Holidays with kids can sometimes be stressful at the best of times, but with him it would be hell.
Don't do it.

Good luck tonight helpless

Agree with all the pp that have said his behaviour is textbook, it really is. The saying he’d already filed for divorce, in order to shock you back into your box and beg his forgiveness. When that didn’t work the emotional blackmail of ‘sobbing all day’. Then apologising, then suggesting your dd will be left out in future if he has another child. He’s throwing it all out the pram now isn’t he?!

He’s not hurting because he loves you, he’s hurting because he’s losing control of you. He doesn’t care about you or your DD, not really, you both take a backseat to him, he’s only talking about himself, his feelings, how a break up will affect him. The histrionics are to get you to behave yourself, didn’t you know if only you could behave better he’d be able to control his emotions. I’m so glad you don’t care anymore.

I was in an abusive relationship so the controlling aspects shout out to me. If you’ve lived through it, it’s so obvious when you see the same behaviours again and again. It really is textbook coercive control.

I notice he mentioned he’s been thinking about self harm. I was waiting for that to show up. This is another textbook response from an abusive partner, my ex threatened suicide, it’s intended to immediately get you back in your box. I’m so glad you suggested GP/Samaritans, it’s telling that he wasn’t keen on those ideas, he was expecting you to fall back into line. Watch out for suicide threats next, these are also intended as a means to control you and get you to focus on him and his feelings.

Yes mine did the self harm threats too. She shows every sign of living to a ripe old age now though.
Another point worth noting, despite the threats, emotional blackmail etc we actually get on OK when doing things related to our daughter. When I left, the conflict was simply transferred to subsequent partners after the first few months.

I hope you're OK HH ?

I'm worrying her H has found this thread hope she's alright

They may have gone on the holiday.

HH has been very honest throughout her postings and has repeatedly defended her husband and seen things from his point of view .Her efforts and her struggle to reconcile her needs with her desire to keep the marriage intact have been epic .

If her husband does read the threads ,which I hope he doesn't ,he must surely see the truth .That his wife has tried hard but the relationship is over .

Hi all- I'm here and all is well! Apologies for going quiet, busy few days and no space! Will post properly in a little bit

Hi again everyone. Thank you so much for all of your thoughts and comments. I've read and digested them all completely and am so so appreciative of your support

I wanted to just address the points around self harm from @alvinp and @ProfessorPootle (and thank you both for sharing your experiences) - he was not at all threatening me or mentioning suicide, he was explaining his thoughts to me in a calm reflective way later on. He was trying to describe how he felt like he'd completely lost control that day and things got out of hand (ie he felt so so stressed and anxious that he'd actually had self harm thoughts pop into his head). He definitely wouldn't do anything like that, he knows it as well and wasn't suggesting that he'd ever follow through. I think we've both concluded from that day that it was just 3 months' worth of bottled up anxiety exploding out of him.

In terms of where we're up to now, we were actually having a good conversation last night about how I was feeling - unfortunately I then had to go and do bedtime and in the meantime my husband ploughed on with booking the holiday! I guess I wasn't clear enough with him as I didn't have the heart to take the holiday away. So we are going away soon. But we're feeling positive about having fun with our daughter and excited to see her enjoying herself. I'm fairly confident that we can have a nice time.

We also had counselling last night, which went smoothly compared to previous sessions! My husband has been asking a lot about what I think is 'missing' with him ie I think he's attractive, clever, kind etc, but I still don't love him. I explained that I don't want to be with someone who has the potential to behave how he has/can, and that is my key issue (outside of not loving him!). He then pointed out that I always say that i am assuming in working on things that he was going to be on his best behaviour going forwards, so if I was holding back on the basis of what he was capable of (based on past experience) then I wasn't giving him a fair chance to prove he can change. Fair point I think?!

I know we've had lots of stumbles around him coping with this situation, but I do truly believe that he is improving, and if it hadn't been for the affair stressing him out he'd probably be getting full marks for his behaviour now. I have been making it difficult for him too because I'm so standoff-ish so he feels like he's getting no positive reinforcement for all of his efforts in reconnecting with me.

We also had a good discussion last night around my fears for how he'd behave if we split (which makes me scared to leave but also makes me think I don't want to be with someone like that!). He completely acknowledged why I might feel vulnerable to what he could say/do, and was clear about absolutely not wanting to hurt or scare me with the things he's said in the heat of the moment - he's committed to being fair and civil and making sure our daughter gets the absolute best, if we do split up.

Finally, I know there's a lot of cynicism on this thread around whether he is truly capable of change, but he is so passionate about understanding how I deserved so much more than what I've had from him before, and he would love the chance to show me how much better he can treat me. I know that reading this just sounds like he is paying lip service, but I know him and I know he means it and is capable of the change.

I also feel like I have been so bogged down in picking apart his past behaviour that I haven't tried to see him positively, and so of course there's no chance of loving him again if I'm seeing him in a negative light. He's sent me loads of articles about how to fall in love with your husband again, and there's points like appreciate the things they do for you, think about happy moments with them, be affectionate etc. I've not really done any of those things because I've been so in my head in trying to work out my feelings, so maybe I've not been as proactive as I could have been?

I know all of this sounds like I've taken leaps and bounds backwards, I get it...I still feel the same way as I've mentioned recently, but I suppose I'm just feeling guilty because he's so down and I don't feel like I've made any effort at all really to connect with him.

Urgh!!!

But do you like him enough to want to be in love with him again? It sounds like he isn't giving you any room to think. He really needs to give you space and be a grown up about it. I really hope the holiday works out ok.