Bastard bingo around the campfire

[helplesshopeless]

Hi everyone...creating thread number 2 (or at least, attempting to...!) Link to old thread here

If that link doesn't work, I'll be forever indebted to any of you more mumsnet savvy folks helping me out!

I'll come back in a bit to post properly, thank you all again for your help and support

he says he'd ... he wants ... he's going to ... he refuses ... I'm mentally unstable
Got out all the big guns there.

All of those things in the above paragraph were him lashing out in upset, which is something he used to do does a lot. He later apologised and was really angry with himself for letting himself go back to continue that behaviour without a break
Just correcting a couple of typos there.

Oh God its interminable. You must be exhausted.

You see he reverts to type when he doesn't get his way, all those self help books, & professions of being a changed person go out of the window.

This is an all time classic cycle of a abuse,
He is the text book abusive thug
The sobbing, the begging,
Instantly followed by anger, insults, threats & the trump card, accusations that you are mentally impaired.
Swiftly followed by apologies,
Its a classic, they could use this as a tutorial for abused women.
And you carry on with tired cranky child, work load stress, & soon the constant weight & unrest is so heavy you give up, just to have peace & quiet . & quite literally roll over.

Please dont fold, you very rightly need to grab your anger. Tell him NOT to speak to you at all, Not once today. You tell him he needs to back off, leave you alone & reflect on his behaviour.
You are BUSY, You require peace , If he comes & corners you, leave
Call your parents, call your friends, call & yes, call Womens Aid.

I'm not exaggerating when I say he was wailing for hours (and I'm not mocking him either, he was in genuine distress and it was terrible to see).
Aggghhhhhh, so so so painful for you 😢

He's refusing to entertain the idea of us still doing things like day trips out together if we split as he says he'd want nothing to do with me in that scenario.
You're well aware how selfish and immature this is. Unfortunately, that's exactly why you’re in this situation. Imagine if he could actually behave like a reasonable, considerate adult! You'd stay with him gladly.

He said he wants another baby if we split and our daughter is going to end up stuck between two families and feel like she doesn't belong anywhere.
There are so many more positive ways of seeing the situation. He is determined to take the catastrophic view. Do you think he has a problem with anxiety? I mean, a problem that warrants treatment? Or maybe he's just doing everything he can to rub your nose in the mess that is entirely of your own making, you selfish cow.

Him accusing you of madness and wanting to punish you financially / emotionally / etc are all standard stuff, I’m afraid. You’re likely to get cycle after cycle after cycle of this kind of abuse followed by apologies as he struggles to get on top of the situation.

I have to say he sounds like a clone of my ex-DH. I completely understand your grief. If only we could wave a wand to make them happy, releasing ourselves from that burden.

My ex-DH wanted nothing to do with me, NC, for at least 10 years after we split. It is possible yours will insist on something similar. It's to do with being unable to cope. I'm sure he's not bluffing when he says you won't have days out together with DD. He means it sincerely now, and he might stick to it for some time out of pride and hurt. So this is a possibility you have to steel yourself against. Your future with DD will certainly look very different.

But you're the kindest and most loving mother imaginable. You'll create a happy, safe world for her to the best of your ability, and you will make a great job of it. In fact that's exactly what you're doing now. You're removing dangerous and unpredictable elements from your future, as a good mother should.

From where you're sitting today, your future happiness is impossible to visualise. Probably, even feeling happy again seems unlikely. But you will be fine. Things will work out beautifully in ways you can't even imagine yet. Because you will make sure they do. And you'll have a much better chance of creating the world you and DD can be truly happy in, without this poor man throwing a spanner in the works every so often.

At the moment it might feel as though you are just destroying things at random out of spite and selfish madness. Yet, although it won't feel like it, you are actually creating a calmer and more stable future for yourself and DD. (And even, eventually, a better future for your husband, if he learns from this, which he must. You're giving him his best chance.)

Good luck for today, @helplesshopeless, one day at a time, one hour at a time, one minute/second/breath at a time. It's all you can do. Be gentle with yourself, brave kind woman. 💗

@peridito I think you are right...and doubly so in that it doesn't matter either way, HH isn't going to be able to make this play out "nicely" whether she stays or goes, and for her sake and her DD's they need to be away from this. All these threats...him being a better husband and father didn't last long did it...

@helplesshopeless I understand that for many abused women it takes a dozen or more attempts to leave before they can finally do it...I think that's where you are, you keep trying and keep getting pulled back in, but one day soon you'll find the strength to keep going

P.S. Have you told your parents yet? I hope they can counterbalance his raging accusations about your sanity. I mean I know you know he's being unreasonable, but if you throw enough mud it does stick.

@helplesshopeless

Just to add he's just come and apologised again for yesterday, he feels very subdued and thinks everything just got on top of him yesterday. So I don't hold it against him at all, but still not sure how to handle the situation now...

Best time is when he is apologising for all that crap yesterday, that's the time that you say yes, thanks for apologising, don't ever behave like that again! NOW maybe you can understand why this relationship can't go on!

Having this man wailing for hours like that out of sheer self pity and desperation to MAKE you do what he wants - it's hideous, and it's a very unpleasant vibe for his daughter to live in. No wonder she didn't sleep properly!

When you are taught growing up that people are fundamentally good or bad, with nothing in between and no way to change it, all you're left with is "hide and deny". You can't face up to and deal with your mistakes and flaws, as admitting they exist means admitting you are intrinsically horrible.

OP, have you ever done something wrong and been called out on it? It feels terrible, doesn't it, when you know you were in the wrong and have to face the consequences. Absolutely the worst feeling. And on this scale your husband must really be feeling like total shit. Of course he's crying. He doesn't want to be a horrible person.

@ravenmum

When you are taught growing up that people are fundamentally good or bad, with nothing in between and no way to change it, all you're left with is "hide and deny". You can't face up to and deal with your mistakes and flaws, as admitting they exist means admitting you are intrinsically horrible.

OP, have you ever done something wrong and been called out on it? It feels terrible, doesn't it, when you know you were in the wrong and have to face the consequences. Absolutely the worst feeling. And on this scale your husband must really be feeling like total shit. Of course he's crying. He doesn't want to be a horrible person.

This.

Great post @Alcemeg

Sorry for the silence, I hadn't purposefully returned to lurking but couldn't access MN for a few days weirdly.

@helplesshopeless I just wanted to commemd you on your ongoing courage. Putting our own happiness first especially as a parent is so hard but so incredibly important. I say that as someone who was raised by a toxically unhappy mother who refused to take responsibility for her own happiness so we all suffered in so many ways.

You are clearly a kind and compassionate person, possibly even a super empath and so I have no doubt your H's distress and the perceived distress you will cause your daughter is genuinely hurting you.

In regard to your daughter, I encourage you to keep a tight hold of knowing the value of your happiness (even if you don't fully know and understand that yet) and how it will positively impact your daughter if you keep breathing keep putting one foot in front of the other in creating an environment on your terms at your own steady pace.

It is sad, horribly sad. It is not what either of you wanted when you got married and had your daughter but the dynamic has cemented and the resulting experience is not what either of you wanted either. I doubt he wants to behave like this but you can no longer sacrifice your own peace and happiness to make room for his and by doing so enable him to avoid some very hard personal growth - growth hurts, as you are discovering, it sadly is not as easy as reading books and being interested in our own behaviours, it requires confrontational change.

Keep breathing, keep believing and listening to the wealth of incredible practical advice these posters are giving and I do strongly believe you and your daughter are going to be better than ok together. How he proves as a single dad, co-parent is yet to be seen and entirely out of your control. Keep your small circles of control focused - your wellbeing, space, and although it may be hard to imagine now, your joy and therefore your daughter will get all of the above and more in her own life and trajectory.
Sending you strength and courage

"Its not what he planned" I think the answer is clearly neither of you planned to find yourselves in an unhappy marriage. But you are unable to sacrifice your whole life being dominated, manipulated & crushed.
He may not accept that description, but it is how you perceive it, He is possibly trying & clearly failing to alter his life long ingrown character, & but he is still untrusting & controlling, & then puts pressure on you without giving you either time or space.
& I just realised this:
He basically has pushed you to your limit, by not being patient, which is, by definition the root problem with his character. impatience, & then anger when he doesn't get what he wants, when he wants.

So predictable that he would bring out the threats for full custody (residence as it is now called) as well. And that you are mentally unstable too (my ex took that one all the way to court; the judge did not even give this the time of day, but it is very stressful to be put in that position).

In an alternative universe where your head was not now mush from this and lack of sleep, you could say, thank you for the apology, please never behave like that again. All the things you raised yesterday will be discussed sensibly at mediation and with our daughter’s best interests at heart. Now please let us all rest.

Except you are in no fit state to do that as his tantrum and threats have exhausted you

This is exactly the behaviour that forced me to move out in the end. The constant stress, no sleep, no space to think, him effectively having what looked like a breakdown so I was worried about his mental health, but I couldn't do anything to stop it other than accept a reality that was making me ill. And that was precisely the goal. Its horrible. I really feel for you.

You really need some support, probably more than strangers on the Internet can give. I strongly strongly suggest going back to your counsellor, or even your GP for support. This is extreme mental distress for you and DD and will be damaging to you both. Its not fair and your DH should not be doing it.

What @QuentinBunbury says. You could make yourself quite ill if you're not careful, because you're used to doing all the emotional work on his behalf and you can't just switch that off overnight. Your own feelings in this situation are more than enough to cope with, plus he's ladling his on top.

I really hope your parents will give you some much-needed support.

Re work, I ended up telling my colleagues what was going on, just because it felt like I was completely losing my mind and I wasn't sure if it might affect my ability to spin plates as fast as I usually did. They cut me some slack and were actually great about it. Is there anyone appropriate to mention this to, who you can tell in confidence?

@helplesshopeless I know you are used to focusing all your energies on DD and DH, but you must carefully ringfence plenty for yourself.

Hi everyone

Thank you for all of your lovely kind support. Some of your messages made me cry!

Feeling very drained today, and extremely in need of space away from him. Ive told him this and he understands and is doing his best to keep himself upbeat rather than clinging to me (which is what I can tell he wants to do!).

This morning when he was apologising, I told him he could never use our daughter like that again in any discussions or arguments, and he agreed but reiterated that he meant it when he said that he could never spend any time with me going forwards if we did split, as it would be too difficult for him. I honestly don't understand how he can't manage to put on a show for a few hours every month or so for the sake of our daughter but I suppose it's something I'll have to deal with and broach in the future. @Alcemeg I agree it is very selfish and immature of him!

He said that he wants to draw a line under his behaviour yesterday, in that he will not behave like that again and will not ask for any more lenience if he does (ie no more excusing him because of the amount of stress he's under). He said he just has no filter in what he says, he was all over the place yesterday and speaking in a blind panic, but he wasn't intentionally trying to hurt or manipulate me. I do believe him, but ultimately I don't really care any more what the reasoning is as the impact is the same (as you said @peridito). I made the point to him too that it sounds like the alternative is at best he thinks those things but manages to not say them, and I'd rather he was the kind of person that didn't think like that at all!

We're meant to be trying to go on holiday next week or the week after and I'm just feeling completely trapped again by that. Would love for my daughter to get to go on holiday after everything with Covid etc and I don't see how it would happen otherwise for a very long time, but in planning a holiday I can feel myself getting sucked back in again and I don't feel like I can keep up the charade for that long (and if I don't then yesterday will happen again!)

He is determined to take the catastrophic view. Do you think he has a problem with anxiety? I mean, a problem that warrants treatment? Or maybe he's just doing everything he can to rub your nose in the mess that is entirely of your own making, you selfish cow.

Yes, I think he is definitely very anxious and is panicking a lot. He hates feeling out of control, and is terrible at managing his emotions, so all of this is bound to get on top of him. He keeps saying he is panicking about the thought of not being able to see our daughter every day and that he can't bare it. He even said last night, after he'd calmed down, that he was in such a state yesterday that he'd even thought of self harming (which he has never ever considers before). He wasn't saying this to scare me, he was just reflecting over the fact that he'd gone hugely off course yesterday and he wasn't sure what had happened. So yes, definitely some anxiety there and it's making things very difficult.

OP, have you ever done something wrong and been called out on it? It feels terrible, doesn't it, when you know you were in the wrong and have to face the consequences. Absolutely the worst feeling. And on this scale your husband must really be feeling like total shit. Of course he's crying. He doesn't want to be a horrible person.

So true. He is not a bad person, and genuinely feels like he has no control over it, and always feels terrible afterwards that he lost control. But I am definitely more detached from it now, and while I understand how he feels and why he's said things, I'm not excusing it or sweeping it under the carpet.

I am just posting quickly in the middle of trying to plough through that urgent work I didn't do yesterday so I'm sorry for not responding to every comment, but I really am absorbing and appreciating what each and every one of you is saying. Thank you thank you thank you

Oh also, just wanted to clarify that our daughter was at nursery yesterday and so she didn't witness any of his behaviour - so please don't worry about her being tangled up in this, she's full of beans as normal!

Forgot to say as well, yes I think I am getting closer to feeling like I need to get my mum's opinion on this. My disastrous chat with my sister put me off, but my mum is the kindest wisest person ever (alongside all of you ladies of course!) and so I know I can rely on her.

In terms of work, I have told my boss that I may be separating from my husband and I've noticed she's definitely cutting me some slack as a result, and is being very supportive. She's also confirmed I can increase my hours flexibly if needed, if it does get to that, to increase my income but still be able to work around my daughter. So I'm feeling thankful for that!

I am definitely more detached from it now, and while I understand how he feels and why he's said things, I'm not excusing it or sweeping it under the carpet.
Whooohhoooooooooooooo!!!! You go, girl!!!!!!!!
This is clear from:
I told him he could never use our daughter like that again in any discussions or arguments
and
I don't really care any more what the reasoning is as the impact is the same … it sounds like the alternative is at best he thinks those things but manages to not say them, and I'd rather he was the kind of person that didn't think like that at all!
Hooray OP, cheering you on, that’s the spirit!

I honestly don't understand how he can't manage to put on a show for a few hours every month or so for the sake of our daughter
Well, just be aware that he really might not be able to. I don't think this is an empty threat. He's emotionally immature/inadequate, and those are his limitations, unfortunately. But you know what? She won't need an occasional fake show because you'll be able to offer her more than that. So whether he can manage to be a more considerate/less self-centred adult, eventually, is really his lookout.

Re his anxiety and comments on self-harming, can he get some professional help? I honestly think he might benefit from some anti-anxiety medication. (Or better still, a powerful sedative so that he leaves you in peace 😋)

Trying to plough through that urgent work I didn't do yesterday so I'm sorry for not responding to every comment
This is what I meant about letting someone at work know. Tell them you need more time on mumsnet!!!!!!! 🤣

@helplesshopeless

Forgot to say as well, yes I think I am getting closer to feeling like I need to get my mum's opinion on this. My disastrous chat with my sister put me off, but my mum is the kindest wisest person ever (alongside all of you ladies of course!) and so I know I can rely on her.

In terms of work, I have told my boss that I may be separating from my husband and I've noticed she's definitely cutting me some slack as a result, and is being very supportive. She's also confirmed I can increase my hours flexibly if needed, if it does get to that, to increase my income but still be able to work around my daughter. So I'm feeling thankful for that!

Excellent!

Yes yes yes re your mum.

I bet she has secretly prayed for you to do this one day. 💗

Good to hear that your boss is helpful, and that you are tentatively making it real in the outside world OP. It's scary but being supported makes a huge difference.

I honestly don't understand how he can't manage to put on a show for a few hours every month or so for the sake of our daughter
When I broke up with my ex I got pissed off at him just for using the same supermarket as me 😬 but within a couple of years we were interacting just fine again. My bf's ex took him to court wanting full custody on grounds he was supposedly an alcoholic (denied; they have 50:50). So as difficult a separation as you can imagine. But now they will do an hour together at Christmas, that kind of thing.
He'll change his view with time.

Honestly, truly, I have not ever done joint days out with ex for the sake of DS. I don’t think that is immature: I find being in his presence stressful and at times triggering, and I need to be okay to look after DC. So the fact that he says he does not want these joint days out is no biggie. It will avoid your daughter being confused as she adjusts to the fact you are separated. It is the least of your concerns at the moment.

I am willing to bet, however, that he said this because he knows it is important to you and if push came to shove and you refused to do anything joint ever, he would complain.

Yes, fair points re the spending time together. I am focusing on it unnecessarily I think as a result of the upset over her not having us together.

@Alcemeg I did actually suggest to him last night that perhaps a trip to the GP for a prescription might help him a lot, or even a phone call to the Samaritans to let it all out, but he wasn't interested

Tell them you need more time on mumsnet!!!!!!! 🤣 - ha!! Dread to think how much time I've clocked up on here recently when I'm working!

OP are you still having your counselling session tomorrow night? I think it might be worthwhile, you can use it to start to forge a path forwards perhaps (including suggestions of a holiday, which to me seems pretty nuts unless it's a holiday for you from Derek....)
Was it this weekend you were going to stay with your friend?

I did actually suggest to him last night that perhaps a trip to the GP for a prescription might help him a lot, or even a phone call to the Samaritans to let it all out, but he wasn't interested
I wish I didn't think it's because he'd rather you dressed up like a Benny Hill nurse to look after him 😜

@helplesshopeless

This morning when he was apologising, I told him he could never use our daughter like that again in any discussions or arguments, and he agreed but reiterated that he meant it when he said that he could never spend any time with me going forwards if we did split, as it would be too difficult for him.

"too difficult for him". So he is unwilling to prioritise his daughter's well-being. When it suits him he uses your daughter's well-being as a stick to beat you with, being appalled you would throw away your marriage and cause her to be ferried between two households etc. But when it's him that is asked to do something that puts her first... no, not if you're not going to stay with him. Selfish, self-absorbed man - he's has jumped into victim mode, so now both of you are taking more time to worry about him than you are about your daughter!

I honestly don't understand how he can't manage to put on a show for a few hours every month or so for the sake of our daughter but I suppose it's something I'll have to deal with and broach in the future.

Of course he can, if he wants to, and if he genuinely cares about your daughter!! This is a threat.

He said that he wants to draw a line under his behaviour yesterday,

I bet he does! He's really keen to draw a line under his bad behaviour, always. But your behaviour? Not so much. No lines being drawn under what you have done. He's been keeping that going with his poor little insecurities and anxieties about what you will get up to if he doesn't stop you from sitting on benches alone, going away for a weekend, out with friends etc.

in that he will not behave like that again the more times he is needing to say this, the more meaningless it becomes.

and will not ask for any more lenience if he does (ie no more excusing him because of the amount of stress he's under).

Ha! Wonder how long it's going to take until the next request that you excuse him because he's a poor hard done by sad and sobbing man.

He said he just has no filter in what he says, he was all over the place yesterday and speaking in a blind panic, but he wasn't intentionally trying to hurt or manipulate me. I do believe him,

He's so used to manipulating you, it doesn't even need to be intentional, it's second nature for him. Again he's keen to keep you focused on him as some kind of victim.

but ultimately I don't really care any more what the reasoning is as the impact is the same

It's a relief to read this.

We're meant to be trying to go on holiday next week or the week after and I'm just feeling completely trapped again by that.

Can you say to him that under the circumstances you think a holiday together is a bad idea and would be forced? Interesting how he is so adamant that he could never spend time with you for the sake of dd if you break up. But now, when he knows damn well you don't want to be with you, he'd go on a holiday with you!

Would love for my daughter to get to go on holiday after everything with Covid etc and I don't see how it would happen otherwise

Could you just take your daughter to your mother's for a peaceful weeks holiday?

I can feel myself getting sucked back in again and I don't feel like I can keep up the charade for that long it wouldn't even much of a holiday for any of you.

(and if I don't then yesterday will happen again!)

But he promised he'd never behave like that again?