Bastard bingo around the campfire

[helplesshopeless]

Hi everyone...creating thread number 2 (or at least, attempting to...!) Link to old thread here

If that link doesn't work, I'll be forever indebted to any of you more mumsnet savvy folks helping me out!

I'll come back in a bit to post properly, thank you all again for your help and support

OP, he is grieving for himself and the consequences of his behaviour.

He can't believe that his behaviour has brought him to this place.

You clearly loved him, despite him not being a very nice man.

He was very confident of your love and repaid you by treating you like shit for years.

Your love died as it does when one partner massively takes it for granted.

His behaviour triggered this and he is finding it difficult to accept responsibility for that.

He underestimated how much shit you would take.

Hopefully he will learn from this.
That will be up to him.

His treatment of you if and when you separate will tell you a lot about how much he has really learned.

It's straight out of the "Abusers hand book".
I agree too, that he wasn't & never has been happily married, if he was happy over the years why was he so angry & abusive?
He may be sad about sharing DD going forward, but still can find a new partner to love or control & turn around his life.

@helplesshopeless

he's crying a lot, he's desperate to make things work and is devastated about his previous behaviour.
so he should be! Because it is his terrible behaviour that has brought it to this.

He's been completely sobbing for hours over what this all means for our daughter.
Yes, well it's sad. And when something awful happens it always feels even worse when it's your own fault!
BUT - if he really is devastated about what his behaviour has resulted in and what it means for your daughter, then he should be encouraged not to make things worse for her by being a shit about the divorce arrangements.

For the first time op, you are in a strong position. 💪

@helplesshopeless

Thanks all he hadn't filed, but he had it drafted ready to click submit. We've had a really tough day, he's crying a lot, he's desperate to make things work and is devastated about his previous behaviour. He's been completely sobbing for hours over what this all means for our daughter. I think it's just a lot of emotions he's been holding in that are all falling out of him today.

We've still not concluded, things have calmed down but still up in the air to be honest.

What a hard day. I am proud of you for not giving in to what he wants and reassuring him that actually he's marvellous and you'll slip back to Good Wife HH.

Given he's mooted filing for divorce, it's much milder now to suggest you spend a few days apart. Ask him to go and stay with his parents or friends. Or go yourself with your daughter. He can hardly make a fuss about this now he's actually filled in the form to file for divorce and live totally separate lives forever! More importantly, you both need thinking time. I'll be willing you on to do this.

Oh and one last thing - you've said a lot about how you are feeling. How are YOU feeling? Not about him, but in yourself.

You've said a lot about how HE IS feeling, whoops

Remember he has already filled in the forms, he knows it's done .

hopeless I'm so sorry ,that must be really hard .Horrible to watch someone you've been close to in such a state .

He needs courage as well ,he's not able to make it work . He's explained that "he can't go ahead any further on the current basis "ie where you're trying and you're waiting to see if you can have the feelings for him that he wants you to have .

It seems odd to me that if he desperately wants it to work that he can't give you/the relationship more time to heal .That he can't give you more freedom and space .

But he is the way he is ,it seems that he can't be different and compromise more .I'm sure he is v distressed ,but it can't be helped . You've been honest and he finds himself unable to be more flexible .

Things will become calmer .Keep going .

OP,
I'm married nearly 30 years an I think I know a bit about love in a marriage.

Marriages at times can be trying for a variety of reasons, often from exhaustion with children, money worries, health worries, employment worries, but it is your genuine love for each other helps you both muddle through.

But it is NOT love to treat your partner like shit for years, it's just not.

Whatever he feels for you, it is NOT love.

Love is so not being nasty and unpleasant to your partner for years.

Whatever he is grieving, he is not grieving a real love.

Whatever he felt for you, it certainly wasn't real love.

You can't treat a person you truly love, the way he treated you for years.

I hope you can understand that, and really get it.

The reason your marriage failed is because HE NEVER loved you.

Your affair IMO doesn't figure in the ending, simply because your marriage has been dead a long time, because HE never loved you.

@ravenmum

Remember that making him happy does not mean making him happy right this minute. It might mean making him happy by divorcing him, so that he gets his issues sorted out finally and has a better relationship with someone else in a few years' time.

Yes! Cling to this hope as your life raft, OP. I know how devastating it is to see him so distraught. Better days will come, for you both. 💗

he's desperate to make things work

Uh-oh.

He has been keeping you on a tight leash while "trying to make things work"!

He has tried (and is trying still I think), to FORCE it to work!

He is very very upset because his usual methods of bullying, raging and forcing to get his desired result, and within his desired timeframe, aren't working very well. He has lost control. Of you. Of the situation. No wonder he is now blubbing for England.

He's explained that "he can't go ahead any further on the current basis"

He didn't expect that to blow up in his face, Poor lamb.

@helplesshopeless

Do you think he'd be happy if you stayed with him out of pity?

Would he be fine with you staying and pretending you are happy? Is that what he wants?

Do you think he'd be ok with having to keep such a close eye on you for the foreseeable future? Knowing your love for him has been killed (by his own attitude) and that it previously led to you seeking love and solace elsewhere?

Does he want you to FORCE yourself to love him?

How could he possibly be happy with you ever again, when he knows damn well that you'd just be tolerating him?

That you'd only be with him because he emotionally blackmailed and bullied you into it!

Honestly, you wouldn't be doing him any favours by staying.

Wishing you strength

This is so horrible for you OP, I really do feel for you.

It's like being asked to perform surgery on someone without anaesthetic, sawing off their leg and trying to ignore their screams.

...and to make matters worse, the patient is your own baby! whose every cry wrings your heart!

There is absolutely no easy way to get through this except to keep reminding yourself that amputating gangrene is a good idea but a horribly painful and messy process.

So sorry @helplesshopeless
You will both be OK, in time. Better than if you don't do this.

Given he's mooted filing for divorce, it's much milder now to suggest you spend a few days apart. Ask him to go and stay with his parents or friends. Or go yourself with your daughter. He can hardly make a fuss about this now he's actually filled in the form to file for divorce and live totally separate lives forever! More importantly, you both need thinking time. I'll be willing you on to do this.

So much good advice already but I think these are particularly wise words. I'm pretty sure tears will soon give way to anger and this is really where putting DD first needs to happen. Take your space, breathe, baby steps.

Sending you much strength and love HH

He won't go, he has already refused to leave the house, & that was when he was ostensibly trying to make things work.

He is bluffing. This is all part of his manipulation.

Sending love and support to you tonight @helplesshopeless

Morning everyone, thanks for all of your support. I've read each of your messages over and over.

We're still in a limbo (feels a bit like the eye of the storm) - I feel like I've been railroaded into maintaining status quo, purely out of guilt over everything he was crying about yesterday. I'm not exaggerating when I say he was wailing for hours (and I'm not mocking him either, he was in genuine distress and it was terrible to see).

He just kept saying our daughter is happiest when we're all together and she loves having us both together to spend time with, and she'd never have that again if we split up. He's refusing to entertain the idea of us still doing things like day trips out together if we split as he says he'd want nothing to do with me in that scenario. So I'm pretty pissed off (and I don't say that lightly ) that he's boxed me in like that. He said he wants another baby if we split and our daughter is going to end up stuck between two families and feel like she doesn't belong anywhere.

He's also said I'm destroying everything, taking his money and his daughter and basically everything away from him. He said he's going to make me pay the mortgage penalty, I don't deserve half the assets as he brought more into the marriage (although he conceded he had agreed to 50/50), and he won't pay any maintenance as why should he fund my part time work lifestyle. He mentioned fighting me for full custody as 'clearly' i'm mentally unstable.

All of those things in the above paragraph were him lashing out in upset, which is something he used to do a lot. He later apologised and was really angry with himself for letting himself go back to that behaviour and said he didn't mean any of it at all. I am comfortable he wouldn't actually act on any of that stuff if it came to it (some of you may disagree but I know he would calm down and act fairly).

I just feel completely trapped now and drained from yesterday, I have so much urgent work to do that I didn't get to yesterday, and to top it up my daughter was up pretty much most of the night! Think I'm in for another bumpy day...

Anyhoo, no real update I suppose, just lots of angst!

Just to add he's just come and apologised again for yesterday, he feels very subdued and thinks everything just got on top of him yesterday. So I don't hold it against him at all, but still not sure how to handle the situation now...

Sending hugs HH that sounds deeply deeply crap and hard to go through.

I’m so glad you managed to get pissed off and somewhat see that he’s creating and making choices about the future to hurt you and your daughter (even if he then goes back on them) rather than being driven to them. I know YOU feel sorry for him, but please forgive me if I feel only anger for a man who can wail for hours, the main gist of which is “our daughter will have a horrible life because I’ll make damn sure she does by impoverishing her and her mother, refusing to spend time together even if it’s in her interest, fighting her main carer for custody even though she’s a toddler and her mother does almost all the work, and making her feel like an outcast in my shiny new imaginary family”.

I would just add that even if he’s gone back on it this morning, that’s because he feels he has scared you enough for now and painted a vivid picture of “future bastard him” that ought to put you off. Has it? Or has it just made you realise that the man who can cook this up in his imagination is not kind, not a good father and has not changed one iota.

Also I know it’s not at all funny but I can’t help but laugh at the hubris of these men who decide their exes are mentally ill on the grounds that they don’t want to be with them any more...

OP do recognise that what he's doing now is actually, not really anything to do with your divorce. It's a repetition of all the behaviour he's exhibited throughout your marriage.
HH wants/does something that displeases him
Derek has an angry outburst, rocks the boat so much that all HH can think of is how to stabilise the boat, the boat must be stable
Derek eventually calms down, most likely having sensed he's sufficiently rocked the boat and threatened capsize enough in order to regain control
HH, so grateful for the restitution of calm, instantly gives up the thing she wanted, in order to maintain the stable boat.

It's all the same thing. He's threatening you, "leave me and see what will happen!" in the exact same way he's threatened you with consequences for independent behaviour throughout. And now, ultimately, he's threatening your daughter too. Which isn't a fucking surprise is it, from a man who got jealous of you breastfeeding her instead of spending time with him.

He really is an incredible shit. Sounds like you are starting to find your anger too - good! How dare he use your love for your daughter against you. It's not about putting her first at all, is it, if it means he has to put himself further back in line.

I think you carry on with your planning, and really importantly line up all the RL support you can. PARENTS, OP, you need to tell them and tell them everything. Sending strength, hugs, and a big fuckoff dollop of anger to you

So to get you to shut up and go back to being a compliant wife, he:

1. told you he had enough and wanted a divorce
2. cried and said how much you'd hurt him
3. threatened to take your daughter
4. threatened your daughters security and stability

Hes escalating pretty fast there. And seems to have found a hot button that's got you to do what he wanted (I.e. shut up and think about him not yourself)

Yet if you cry he calls you pathetic.

Please try to detach from this. He's so manipulative

I am of the opinion that none of us can really know how deliberately manipulative this man is .As in is in are his responses planned and then put into play ?Or is he a deeply flawed individual who is unable to control himself in the heat of the moment and then is hugely distressed ?

To me ,I don't think it matters where he falls on those two extremes ,he's not the sort of person to be in a marriage with .And staying is not going to enable him to change .