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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Bastard bingo around the campfire

984 replies

helplesshopeless · 09/06/2021 10:51

Hi everyone...creating thread number 2 (or at least, attempting to...!) Link to old thread here

If that link doesn't work, I'll be forever indebted to any of you more mumsnet savvy folks helping me out! Grin

I'll come back in a bit to post properly, thank you all again for your help and support Flowers

OP posts:
AMSA · 18/06/2021 19:06

*write out
apologies for my typo!

Mix56 · 19/06/2021 08:22

"OK, that's fair. I've been an asshole. Sorry."
This is the dream.
You can never have this with Derek,
There will be a rebuff of whatever type: verbal, insults, accusations, threats, anger, mood, huff. In depth monologues about why you are wrong (in the shower)

Clarity is seeing clearly surely ?
Or maybe the word is "Acceptance" that he will never become the nice part if the person you originally met. because he was never a 100% good choice for husband in the first place, nor boyfriend.
As you have already admitted

FoxgloveSummers · 19/06/2021 09:36

Very good and thoughtful first post @AMSA - glad you’ve delurked Smile

So glad I’ve named the Dereks 😂

OP I don’t know if you’ve noticed but in your recent posts you mentioned your Derek accusing you of “dragging him down” twice and now you are worrying that you’re dragging US down… Do you see that it’s happening again? He is successfully controlling the narrative even in your own head. I’m so sorry.

Btw catching up with the thread - not at all surprised he wouldn’t brook you speaking with a professional objective stranger without him there to monitor, “correct” and complain loudly throughout, talking you down and overwriting your own views. Must have been hell for him. His ideal relationship is him as prison warden in a panopticon - one of those prisons where they can see all the prisoners at all times. Obviously you’re the only inmate (and your daughter will be the other one when she’s bigger). Any secret hidey hole, whether that’s work or time alone with your family, or sole counselling or time away (I presume he doesn’t know about MN!) is Not Allowed because it ruins his perfect control.

FoxgloveSummers · 19/06/2021 09:39

@Alcemeg I also had that experience with my DP (I grew up in a household with an angry and unpredictable parent) of raising an issue and it being... calmly and kindly resolved. Unnerving! Where was the “oh so you’re saying this is all my fault? You must think I’m a monster! That’s so typical of you blah blah blah” shouting banging around etc. Just “oh I’m sorry, I didn’t realise. I’ll change x in the future”... and he DID!

Alcemeg · 19/06/2021 09:50

@FoxgloveSummers I don't think I'll ever be able to look at a man called Derek with a straight face again 🤣

Our experiences, with growing up and with new partners, sound very similar. I'd had a lifetime of Dereks: my dad... and then my ex-DH, and then a few others just to hammer it all home.

It is surprising how long it takes to recover from all that. Honestly, after a decade of being treated with kindness and respect by now-DH, I still pinch myself sometimes and say, "But am I making sense? You do understand?" and he just says "Of course you're making sense, you always do." 🥰

This is rather different from being told I never make sense / am stupid / selfish / etc etc... Unfortunately, all that seeps in doesn't it. I still doubt myself a lot (though not nearly as much as I used to). And poor OP is deeply enmeshed with this vampire who sucks out her soul.

Any secret hidey hole, whether that’s work or time alone with your family, or sole counselling or time away (I presume he doesn’t know about MN!) is Not Allowed because it ruins his perfect control.
It really is textbook stuff, isn't it -- as @ravenmum put it, this thread could just as easily have been created by a troll dripfeeding us "little tidbits from his well-thumbed copy of the Book of Classic Abuse" 😁

OP, since you can't have private counselling because it will upset Derek, is there any way you can ringfence some time away from him? Go and stay with your parents for a weekend???????????????? And tell them? Stay with friends? You literally need to think of this as a vampire situation.

Cavagirl · 19/06/2021 10:39

Been thinking again about this OP -

my husband had been talking a lot about how he thought my therapy wasn’t helping me and it was making me focus on the negative history

What gave him this impression?

At the outset, what did he believe the purpose of your private therapy was, if you even discussed that at all?

Did you dicuss with him the content of your sessions? I'm just curious why, if he wanted nothing to do with your individual therapy as you said previously, when he accidentally overheard part of your session and you were adamant that normally he wanted nothing to do with it and went and hid away, listening to music - I'm curious why he suddenly developed such a strong opinion about your individual therapy as to advocate stopping it?

helplesshopeless · 19/06/2021 12:49

Happy weekend everyone!  thank you all for your comments.

@Whatdirection yes please re your counsellor - although to be honest I'd be nervous to bring up with my husband that I'd like to start again as I think he would see it as the next step towards us separating perhaps. Although I suppose that would push us to have the conversation at least!

@AMSA thanks so much for your messages, your summary of the position with my husband in your first post was completely accurate.

that after so many years of what has been an unhealthy dynamic for you that you feel disconnected to the love you once felt for him. You very much want to connect with feeling love for both your sakes and for your daughter, to show her a healthy happy relationship but right now you feel too disconnected to make that a reality and cannot even guarantee it will become one.

What you have said above is actually pretty much what I have said to my husband (except you have phrased it much more eloquently than my rambles!). And it has led to us trying to connect, trying counselling etc, but as mentioned, we're at stalemate because of our 'irreconcilable needs.'

It's not a Michelin star meal.
You are grabbing crumbs under the table and you think a McDonalds is the very height of luxury 🍟🍿🍔

Ha!  it's so difficult because when we have a period of calm pleasantness (like today; we've just had a lovely trip out with our daughter and he's now thoughtfully sent me off for a rest), it makes me think that I'm overreacting and placing too much importance on when things are not great. When we have bad moments, I'm not able to be brave enough to call it quits. It's almost like I feel like I need to know exactly how much good vs bad I'm going to have to deal with in the future, so I know whether I should make do with it or not.

Which I guess ties in with the point about 'balancing everything up':

So, now, balancing everything up, is it the right thing to stay, or to leave?

If "on balance" isn't enough for you to decide this, why not, when it was last time?

I think if I did manage to assess it all, balance up and reach a conclusion, my own feelings wouldn't be included in that, or at least not with any weighting. My husband's and daughter's (obviously) well-being would be, as would other things like comfortable home, nice lifestyle, happy family times, and so on, and I'd have no choice to conclude it was the right thing to stay. But I don't see how I'd factor in my feelings, as to do that I'd have to place them at the top of the list of importance for it to make any difference to the way the scales tip!

He never, ever questions or undermines how I feel, because... that's how I feel! and it counts... it weighs heavier than feathers, heavier than lead, heavier than logic.

Would it surprise you all to hear that is exactly how the OM is, too 

@FoxgloveSummers I did actually realise after I'd posted, the point about 'dragging you down!' So I guess what you're all saying is sinking in one way or another! He knows about MN's existence as I've mentioned various threads over the years, but he doesn't know I've started one. And I hope to goodness it stays like that! I don't think I'd have had the strength to even keep questioning things if I didn't have you all, so I've never been so grateful for MN's existence!

OP, since you can't have private counselling because it will upset Derek, is there any way you can ringfence some time away from him?

One of my friends actually came up with the most perfect solution - a religious retreat for the weekend! You're basically in silence all weekend, no phones allowed, surrounded by nuns, what could I possibly get up to other than soak up the silence Grin I'm seriously considering it and quite excited by the idea.

I'm just curious why, if he wanted nothing to do with your individual therapy as you said previously, when he accidentally overheard part of your session and you were adamant that normally he wanted nothing to do with it and went and hid away, listening to music - I'm curious why he suddenly developed such a strong opinion about your individual therapy as to advocate stopping it?

It was over the course of several weeks that he started to feel like it wasn't helping me. Originally I'd started the therapy to help me work out why I was 'frozen' and struggling to show remorse and love post affair, and he was obviously up for me managing to develop those things! But after a few sessions I think he realised I was questioning things more rather than feeling better about h

OP posts:
helplesshopeless · 19/06/2021 12:50

Oh no I hit post too soon and before I'd sorted all the hold out! Ignore the below, I'll repost in a min

OP posts:
helplesshopeless · 19/06/2021 12:59

Happy weekend everyone! CakeWinethank you all for your comments.

@Whatdirection yes please re your counsellor - although to be honest I'd be nervous to bring up with my husband that I'd like to start again as I think he would see it as the next step towards us separating perhaps. Although I suppose that would push us to have the conversation at least!

@AMSA thanks so much for your messages, your summary of the position with my husband in your first post was completely accurate.

that after so many years of what has been an unhealthy dynamic for you that you feel disconnected to the love you once felt for him. You very much want to connect with feeling love for both your sakes and for your daughter, to show her a healthy happy relationship but right now you feel too disconnected to make that a reality and cannot even guarantee it will become one.

What you have said above is actually pretty much what I have said to my husband (except you have phrased it much more eloquently than my rambles!). And it has led to us trying to connect, trying counselling etc, but as mentioned, we're at stalemate because of our 'irreconcilable needs.'

It's not a Michelin star meal.
You are grabbing crumbs under the table and you think a McDonalds is the very height of luxury 🍟🍿🍔

Ha! it's so difficult because when we have a period of calm pleasantness (like today; we've just had a lovely trip out with our daughter and he's now thoughtfully sent me off for a rest), it makes me think that I'm overreacting and placing too much importance on when things are not great. When we have bad moments, I'm not able to be brave enough to call it quits. It's almost like I feel like I need to know exactly how much good vs bad I'm going to have to deal with in the future, so I know whether I should make do with it or not.

Which I guess ties in with the point about 'balancing everything up':

So, now, balancing everything up, is it the right thing to stay, or to leave?

If "on balance" isn't enough for you to decide this, why not, when it was last time?

I think if I did manage to assess it all, balance up and reach a conclusion, my own feelings wouldn't be included in that, or at least not with any weighting. My husband's and daughter's (obviously) well-being would be, as would other things like comfortable home, nice lifestyle, happy family times, and so on, and I'd have no choice to conclude it was the right thing to stay. But I don't see how I'd factor in my feelings, as to do that I'd have to place them at the top of the list of importance for it to make any difference to the way the scales tip!

He never, ever questions or undermines how I feel, because... that's how I feel! and it counts... it weighs heavier than feathers, heavier than lead, heavier than logic.

Would it surprise you all to hear that is exactly how the OM is, too Smile

@FoxgloveSummers I did actually realise after I'd posted, the point about 'dragging you down!' So I guess what you're all saying is sinking in one way or another! He knows about MN's existence as I've mentioned various threads over the years, but he doesn't know I've started one. And I hope to goodness it stays like that! I don't think I'd have had the strength to even keep questioning things if I didn't have you all, so I've never been so grateful for MN's existence!

OP, since you can't have private counselling because it will upset Derek, is there any way you can ringfence some time away from him?

One of my friends actually came up with the most perfect solution - a religious retreat for the weekend! You're basically in silence all weekend, no phones allowed, surrounded by nuns, what could I possibly get up to other than soak up the silence Grin I'm seriously considering it and quite excited by the idea.

I'm just curious why, if he wanted nothing to do with your individual therapy as you said previously, when he accidentally overheard part of your session and you were adamant that normally he wanted nothing to do with it and went and hid away, listening to music - I'm curious why he suddenly developed such a strong opinion about your individual therapy as to advocate stopping it?

It was over the course of several weeks that he started to feel like it wasn't helping me. Originally I'd started the therapy to help me work out why I was 'frozen' and struggling to show remorse and love post affair, and he was obviously up for me managing to develop those things! But after a few sessions I think he realised I was questioning things more rather than feeling better about him, and started saying that I was in strange/down moods after the sessions. He thought the therapist was encouraging me to be negative and obsess over the bad behaviour, and it was making me label him as a monster and abuser. He was keen for me to forget about the past and join him in being positive for a good future together. After a while of him talking like that and the accompanying aggro over me obsessing over his bad past, I decided it wasn't worth the hassle!

OP posts:
Gerwurtztraminer · 19/06/2021 13:33

I've noticed you use the work 'Calm' a lot. Today is "a period of calm pleasantness", earlier you've talked about keeping Derek/Austin Powers calm so you had space to think etc.

Makes me wonder
a) what does 'not calm' look like
b) why are you so afraid of his 'not calm'
c) why is it solely your responsibility to maintain his calm

You know that he doesn't like your counselling because you started to realise this isn't all your fault and began sticking up for yourself.

Your feelings matter - why wouldn't they? How can you have this happy family life you so crave if YOU are not happy and YOUR feelings not validated?

Alcemeg · 19/06/2021 14:15

Hello @helplesshopeless

when we have a period of calm pleasantness (like today)
A period of calm pleasantness should not be a luxury, it should be the norm... I won't mention crumbs under table again... Flowers

My husband's and daughter's (obviously) well-being would be, as would other things like comfortable home, nice lifestyle, happy family times, and so on, and I'd have no choice to conclude it was the right thing to stay. But I don't see how I'd factor in my feelings, as to do that I'd have to place them at the top of the list of importance for it to make any difference to the way the scales tip!
Not necessarily at the top. But included somewhere in the mix, instead of left out completely. Weighing more than feathers. And if factoring in your feelings seems to "outweigh" the rest, despite you discounting them as you habitually do, that is really, really, really important and actually trumps everything else. Because no one in their right mind wants a wife to stay just because you tell her to (oh! -- except Derek of course, but that's a rather "special" case), or a mother to stay for the sake of a more comfortable home. (What is a comfortable home? Discuss. 😉)

He never, ever questions or undermines how I feel, because... that's how I feel! and it counts... it weighs heavier than feathers, heavier than lead, heavier than logic.
Would it surprise you all to hear that is exactly how the OM is, too.
Then run to him now. Run!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't waste any more time! You worry about a Michelin meal, or a McDonalds, and you're scrabbling around on the floor for crumbs (oops, sorry, I did mention it again after all; hard not to). Please don't, there is no need. From what you say about OM, you could have a bright future together. At the very least, he will teach you what it is to be respected and understood, both crucial things that you have completely lost sight of.

One of my friends actually came up with the most perfect solution - a religious retreat for the weekend! You're basically in silence all weekend, no phones allowed, surrounded by nuns
This sounds like quite an extreme way of escaping a Derek, but where needs must... Just remember nuns flagellate themselves, and there is more fun to be had in the world.

He thought the therapist was encouraging me to be negative and obsess over the bad behaviour, and it was making me label him as a monster and abuser.
Sorry, but: Too. Fucking. Right.
Just replace "obsess over" with "recognise and give appropriate weight to" 🤨

Welcome to the fireside, @Gerwurtztraminer. With you and @Cavagirl on board, looks like a party! 🥂

KatySun · 19/06/2021 14:24

He has thoughtfully sent you off for a rest. Presumably you expressed a wish for a rest or said you were tired and wanted a rest, not just he sent you off (like a child)? What if you wanted fresh air and a walk down to the bench instead? I think the happy family times may be dependent on you doing what he wants all the time. How long is that sustainable?

I worked out what was triggering about this thread. It is that you can hear his voice so clearly through it. I don’t even know whether you genuinely think you should sacrifice your own happiness for a nice house and comfortable life or whether that is him arguing that is what you have, why would you give it up?

Alcemeg · 19/06/2021 14:34

You're playing the Waiting Game, OP, which is understandable.

Just don't forget your mountain is waiting (and I don't mean OM, although he sounds like an excellent step in the right direction!)

Sorry to repost this, but it's one of those things that makes more sense as time goes on...

helplesshopeless · 19/06/2021 14:42

@Gerwurtztraminer yes, I suppose I do mention calm a lot! It's actually noticeable as something to point towards when we have nice pleasant times, which as @Alcemeg should be the norm. But things have been so unsettled and stressful recently, my husband has been so volatile after learning of the affair, that I haven't been able to relax at all (until the last week or so when he's been generally calmer). And so I really do value it when we have a calm atmosphere and I can almost have a moment to breathe and think, rather than reacting to a situation or mood.

Not necessarily at the top. But included somewhere in the mix, instead of left out completely. Weighing more than feathers. And if factoring in your feelings seems to "outweigh" the rest, despite you discounting them as you habitually do, that is really, really, really important and actually trumps everything else

I guess that's where I'm struggling then! If I'm overall ok, coping with the (much reduced and now only occasional) unpleasantness, enjoying family times, is it enough that I have a little voice saying 'I want more/better than this from a husband'? How strongly do I have to feel to know it outweighs everything else? I know my feelings are very strong when we're in the middle of a storm, but they're much quieter when things are settled. How do I know it's enough to trump everything else?

From what you say about OM, you could have a bright future together. At the very least, he will teach you what it is to be respected and understood, both crucial things that you have completely lost sight of.

Yes, we absolutely could, I know we could. It just feels like that is so out of reach at the moment I don't even dare to think about it.

@KatySun yes, I was tired and moaning about lack of sleep so he's been really kind and encouraged a nap while he takes our daughter out. And instead I'm on here discussing him Blush

I don’t even know whether you genuinely think you should sacrifice your own happiness for a nice house and comfortable life or whether that is him arguing that is what you have, why would you give it up?

Erm, yes, that does come from him I think Sadhe often expresses complete bemusement that I'm willing to throw everything away, and that our daughter is so happy and I'll be tearing all of our lives apart. He knows I think that's emotional blackmail to talk like that but he says it's a fact that he just doesn't comprehend it.

OP posts:
Alcemeg · 19/06/2021 14:57

I guess that's where I'm struggling then! If I'm overall ok, coping with the (much reduced and now only occasional) unpleasantness, enjoying family times, is it enough that I have a little voice saying 'I want more/better than this from a husband'? How strongly do I have to feel to know it outweighs everything else? I know my feelings are very strong when we're in the middle of a storm, but they're much quieter when things are settled. How do I know it's enough to trump everything else?

Because... the very fact that you're thinking AT ALL about leaving.

No one wants to throw in the towel, especially when you have a comfortable home / you manage to achieve "happy family times" / Derek manages to behave himself for a week or so / there are glimpses of peace.

So why can’t you settle? Like a baby wailing instead of sleeping. WHY CAN’T YOU SETTLE?

Well, the two most obvious explanations are:
(1) Derek’s view : Because you’re just a selfish, silly woman who just doesn’t know a good deal when she sees it. You throw yourself at other men for cheap thrills, etc. You just need to calm down and get a grip on yourself.
(2) Your view, if you ever allowed yourself to have one : Because deep down you know you deserve better and there is more to life.

I can promise you that (2) is real, and the only reason you don’t give it weight is because you are trapped inside Derek’s view of… well, just about everything.

FantasticButtocks · 19/06/2021 15:08

@helplesshopeless

Erm, yes, that does come from him I think he often expresses complete bemusement that I'm willing to throw everything away, and that our daughter is so happy and I'll be tearing all of our lives apart. He knows I think that's emotional blackmail to talk like that but he says it's a fact that he just doesn't comprehend

Ok, so he doesn't understand. Do you need him to? Are you waiting for him to understand and even agree with you? Would you not be able to walk away unless he fully understood your reasons and thinking? Is that the clarity you meant maybe? Because I don't think that's going to happen.

Of course it's completely understandable that you would want that, but it's not very realistic.

Your individual therapy was working. That's why he didn't like you doing it, because he could see it wasn't going to give him the results he wanted. Never mind if was helpful to you. He didn't think it was helping you to see things the way he wants you to see them. So it wasn't working, for him.

KatySun · 19/06/2021 15:50

Okay, so put bluntly but kindly meant, I would like to talk to helplesshopeless and not her husband filtered through her, because helplesshopeless is worth talking to, and if I had wished to hear someone using manipulative and somewhat gaslight-y talk about happy families and comfortable homes when the truth was that this facade was maintained through coercive control and eroding personal boundaries, I would have stayed with my ex.

Gerwurtztraminer · 19/06/2021 16:05

@helplesshopeless.

I hope you get a wee sleep. Ignore us, we'll be here when you wake up!

I totally understand why you need some peace. I just worry that your need/desire for 'calm' and the effort to maintain it in the face of Derek's volatility is in fact wearing you out and grinding you down. And the brief respite from the tension is such a relief it drowns out your little voice saying 'I want more/better than this from a husband. You then start second guessing yourself and get sucked back in to thinking the calm might last. But I think the consensus is it won't.

I still feel you are secretly waiting for him to call it quits so you don't have to. Or hoping he'll do something so awful that it trumps your crippling guilt which is trapping you. and gives you a 'good enough' excuse to leave. You just can't wait for that.

I agree with @fantasticbuttocks that his bafflement (even if true and it probably isn't - he KNOWS why) is not important. He doesn't need to understand for you to take action. And you know you would not be 'tearing your lives apart' to leave. Yes it would be painful for a while but it's hardly a bed of highly scented roses now is it and your daughter won't be happy long term is this situation isn't resolved.

I hope you get your retreat with the nuns if thats what you need Halo

@alcemeg, always up for a party and will even drink Cava at a push!

peridito · 19/06/2021 17:07

after a few sessions I think he realised I was questioning things more rather than feeling better about him, and started saying that I was in strange/down moods after the sessions

blimey ,so your therapy was only ok if it led to you feeling better about him !!!!!!!!!!!!

Whatdirection · 19/06/2021 17:08

Have pm'd you with counsellor details and details of two retreat centres - no nuns involved but lots of space in beautiful surroundings 😀

wrigglewriggles · 19/06/2021 18:16

@helplesshopeless
I've just come a cross your threads today and read through mainly focusing on your posts.
You said earlier, I think the previous thread, that you were waiting for crunch or snap moment (something like that anyway) I was in a similar sounding relationship and over the years he threatened to leave if I didn't do xyz and I placated him with all the 'I'll do better, I'm sorries' to make him not break up our 'happy' family. He'd do his best for a while to be on his best behaviour, I'd be on egg shells not wanting to upset the calm. He had excuses like 'I'm stressed, tired' etc yet I was never allowed the same feelings. There were small moments which on reflection could/should have been my 'crunch time' but I stayed until something bigger (that I never thought would happen) happened. From that moment I knew we were done but it took another 6 months to voice it out loud once and for all. It would have taken me longer but a chat with a straight talking friend pushed me to do the right thing. She told me I wasn't being fair to me, the children or him by not admitting how I truly felt. Him trying to make things work, waiting for me to be ready for the intimacy and closeness he wanted while I deep down knew we were done. Having that conversation and being the one to end it was hard and guilt inducing but also freeing and came with a sense of relief once I had voiced how I really felt. Now, things aren't great yet, there's a still a lot for us to sort out and obviously we will never be free of each other because of the children but standing up and telling him that enough was enough, I wasn't going to take his mental, emotional, verbal and ultimately physical abuse anymore was what I needed to do to make a better life for the children and myself and actually him too.
Reading through your posts I hear a woman who is not happy, who wants better, who deserves better but is scared. Scared to be the one to say 'I'm done' scared about what others might think or say, scared about his reaction. What you need to think about is do you think you can ever really love a man who has treated you the way he has again? Even if he changes? And remember even though he's doing his best to change he keeps slipping, ok he apologises afterwards and you have a discussion but should it be happening in the first place? You say you keep things away from your daughter but children pick up in things. Do you want her to grow up in this environment?
I'm waffling and rambling and probably not being of any help but I wanted to let you know that I'm another one who has been in a similar place to you and I know it's not easy to make a call one way or another but I think it's better you do (whatever you want to do) sooner rather than later as if this situation continues as it is resentment will start to build between the two of you.
Wishing you the best.

FoxgloveSummers · 19/06/2021 19:02

OP is it possible by “clarity” you mean “permission”?

Hope Saturday evening brings you some calm thinking space or a drunken night out with the girls x

Cavagirl · 19/06/2021 21:24

@Gerwurtztraminer don't worry, I'll bring the good cava, you'll like it Wink

OP I totally agree with PP, increasingly your posts are like your H is talking.

I think if I did manage to assess it all, balance up and reach a conclusion, my own feelings wouldn't be included in that, or at least not with any weighting why on earth not? Your own feelings should be top of the list, in deciding how YOU best want to live YOUR life!

My husband's and daughter's (obviously) well-being would be your daughter's also top of the list, as you are a responsible and caring parent - but why are you giving weight to Derek's wellbeing in deciding whether to stay or leave? His feelings aren't your responsibility! If he wants the marriage to continue that's only helpful if you want the marriage to continue. But why would you factor in what he wants, when deciding what you want?

as would other things like comfortable home, nice lifestyle, happy family times, and so on all fully possible in a world when you're no longer with Derek!

and I'd have no choice to conclude it was the right thing to stay. But I don't see how I'd factor in my feelings, as to do that I'd have to place them at the top of the list of importance for it to make any difference to the way the scales tip!

This is just so chilling. You really do believe your own feelings about what is right for you count for so little Sad

I decided it wasn't worth the hassle
You do realise this applies to pretty much every small piece of autonomy you try to snatch for yourself? He makes it so difficult - therapy, bench, a night out with friends, work, and on and on - that it's not worth the hassle. He's ground you down and down so you don't even know how to include your own wishes on a list of pros and cons for how you want to live your life Sad

I'm so gutted for you OP, you have a voice and it deserves to be heard - firstly and most importantly, by yourself.

Alcemeg · 20/06/2021 08:12

Excellent post @Cavagirl. I agree, OP's feelings SHOULD be top of the list when deciding her own future.

I'm so gutted for you OP, you have a voice and it deserves to be heard -- firstly and most importantly, by yourself.
I think this might be part of the problem, @helplesshopeless? Your voice is drowned out so much by all the white noise generated by Derek's demands and feelings, you don't even know what you feel or want any more.

So you might be able to put your feelings into the mix if you had any real idea what they were.

You do have some basic facts to go on, such as the ones you started off the first thread with. Such as the fact that you don't love him any more. This really is a GET OUT OF JAIL FREE card.

It's like Derek places a different value on currency, and you are sitting on a billion $$$$$$$$$$ there and because he values it at 50p you feel you have nothing to go on. Honestly, out in the real world you have a gazillion $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and no one is ever going to question you for making a move.

When you wonder if you might one day look back and feel that you were mistreated in this relationship, you are correct. The proof is that even now, when you are busting a gut to make it all work, and even when Derek is controlling your mind, you're still tormented by doubt. That's not how you'd feel if you were safe. Flowers

Mix56 · 20/06/2021 08:48

How about aspiring to happiness? Not just a list if who is most important.
because its clear Derek will never let you have your own mind, or to pursue your own personal goals, or honestly become this loving, open, trusting, supportive prince he claims to be able to be.
Your whole life is waiting for you, & Dd will thrive because you will

You certainly weren't happy before the affair, you aren't happy now, even though he has improved, (just barely, as he has just changed manœuvres )
He dominates, you appease.

Your happiness counts, If you said to anyone out loud, "I dont love him, I dont fancy him, he has spent the last x years despising & punishing me, I'm so unhappy"
Anyone & everyone would tell you life is more than this, you deserve be loved, You need to leave.